# Finsoft/Spielo G2 Games Issue

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#### katie91

##### Banned User - Player Fraud
Editor's note: this player opened an account at Betfred using another person's identity, knowingly gave incomplete information to those checking his gameplay, and resulted in misconstrued findings. There have also been reports that there is erroneous information in this thread that is causing many here to make misinformed assumptions - thus causing undo harm to a number of operators. It also appears that the OP is much more than a multi-account fraudster. New information and developments are presently evolving which members may need to take into account before drawing any conclusions.

I was attracted to Betfred casino as they are Casinomeister accredited and offered a good paytable on two of my favourite HiLo games: “Reel Deal” and “HiLo Gambler” under the “Games” section. Before depositing I played the games in play money mode for a few hours and they played like a completely fair game. However, on playing for real money my balance just kept going down and down and I never had a decent win to cashout. I asked my brother to take a look at my results as he studied maths at university. To be honest I don’t really understand much of the maths behind it so he has written the following:

-----

I have taken a look at the play history and it is pretty much undeniable that these games do not deal a fair game in real money mode. I have summarised the outcomes below:

Reel Deal

I have based this analysis on the selection “RED” as this is the bet placed most of the time. I have ordered the outcomes by frequency to highlight just how extreme the bias on the game is.

A BLACK 1713
9 BLACK 1705
5 BLACK 1698
3 BLACK 1667
7 BLACK 1659
Q BLACK 1632
4 RED 1591
K RED 1576
2 RED 1574
J RED 1572
6 RED 1486
8 RED 1483

Red: 9282, Black: 10074. p(Red) = 0.5. Probability of outcome this bad or worse: 0.000000006492 (1 in 154,028,680)

Hi Lo Gambler

2 586
3 559
4 513
5 554
6 515
7 476
8 535
9 556
J 569
Q 599
K 612
A 604

2-9: 4294, J-A: 2384. p(2-9) = 2/3. Probability of outcome this bad or worse: 0.000023817 (1 in 41,987)

The full play logs are available here:

I have taken a screen recording of the entire play log directly from the website in case Betfred attempt to lock the account and deny these results are accurate.

I would invite others to analyse these results to confirm that these games are not fair and for Betfred to offer their logs for these two games to a third-party to analyse.

We then tested the play money games for several hours to see if they showed the same behaviour. We recorded all our sessions (and have about 9 hours of recorded play on file) until I realised there was actually a much simpler, conclusive proof that the play money mode cannot play in this way. If you inspect the request (using a tool like Firebug) you will see that the request made in fun play mode to the server is as follows:

Outdated URL (Invalid)
<funplayrequest id="0" allowduplicates="true" count="1" rangehigh="12" rangelow="1" method="generaterandomnumbers" />
</funplayrequests>

The response comes back as follows and a “4” pops up on the screen (the low value of 1 corresponds to a 2 and 12 to an A):
<funplayrequests>
<randomnumbers id="0">3</randomnumbers>
</funplayrequests>

Note that this is a request to a shared random number generator and an identical request is made for every bet placed by the player in that session. This may seem unremarkable at first but notice that at no point in the request is the bet specified (Red/Black etc) – it is therefore impossible for the game to exhibit this behaviour in play money mode. The RNG simply has no knowledge of the bet placed (which is exactly how a fair game should behave). The RNG could be biased towards a particular number but it would be impossible to rig the game for every bet placed by the player as has been demonstrated for real play mode.

-----

Personally, I find the whole thing very misleading. The “Reel Deal” game looks like it offers good odds e.g. red/black both pay even money. It plays like a fair game in play money mode and even has a RTP of 100% listed in the help files.

It seems very unfair to rig the outcomes of a HiLo game depending on which bet the player has selected so that if a player picks 2-9, J-A will come up or if a player picks red then black will be more likely. I would never play at any casino or software that I knew had the ability to rig the games in a completely hidden way like this. Other casinos that want a lower payout for these games use a worse pay table which a player can see, for example at Bet365 Games the payout is 1.92x on the Red/Black outcomes rather than 2x.

This is not what I would have expected from an accredited casino and big high street name like Betfred. I hope that this was a genuine mistake by Betfred and that they will refund my losses on these rigged games. If not then this post will at least serve as a warning so other players know to avoid this casino.

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#### Seventh777

##### RIP Roy
Send this guy a private message - Eliot Jacobson, iirc he's the guy that looks into cases like this.

#### katie91

##### Banned User - Player Fraud
Thanks, I have sent him a message.

#### ChopleyIOM

webby
Very interesting indeed.

If I'm reading the numbers correctly, the RED/BLACK split in particular is pretty damning?

katie, can you keep us informed on this one please?

#### dunover

##### Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Please, when are players going to accept that for the protection of the casino, there are compensations in the software? You'll not hit a 'big' win until you have lost enough overall to pay for it, or most of it so you are slightly up overall. For example, ask the players who post the big IR Wild Desire screenshots when they got those wins? I'll bet they are long term players whose balances were overall very minus when they got the hits. I'd be interested to see someone truthfully say that within 1/2 hour of joining a casino they hit a massive win and were almost immediately in substantial profit. If things are truly random, this would happen quite frequently.

The OP has a case here as Chopley says. The stats over so may thousands of goes on a 'random' game shouldn't really look as bad for the player. The game is compensated to reach a certain RTP over a certain period - that much is clear. The weighting on certain cards is clearly fluid when certain choices are made.

#### Tirilej

CAG
MM
Please, when are players going to accept that for the protection of the casino, there are compensations in the software? You'll not hit a 'big' win until you have lost enough overall to pay for it, or most of it so you are slightly up overall. For example, ask the players who post the big IR Wild Desire screenshots when they got those wins? I'll bet they are long term players whose balances were overall very minus when they got the hits. I'd be interested to see someone truthfully say that within 1/2 hour of joining a casino they hit a massive win and were almost immediately in substantial profit. If things are truly random, this would happen quite frequently.
.

What you're saying here is so stupid so I can't understand that you are playing at all.

Of course you can win immediately and stay a winner. I have done that and it will take some time if ever to pay that back.

#### sapit222

##### Ueber Meister
PABaccred
MM
Please, when are players going to accept that for the protection of the casino, there are compensations in the software? You'll not hit a 'big' win until you have lost enough overall to pay for it, or most of it so you are slightly up overall. For example, ask the players who post the big IR Wild Desire screenshots when they got those wins? I'll bet they are long term players whose balances were overall very minus when they got the hits. I'd be interested to see someone truthfully say that within 1/2 hour of joining a casino they hit a massive win and were almost immediately in substantial profit. If things are truly random, this would happen quite frequently.

The OP has a case here as Chopley says. The stats over so may thousands of goes on a 'random' game shouldn't really look as bad for the player. The game is compensated to reach a certain RTP over a certain period - that much is clear. The weighting on certain cards is clearly fluid when certain choices are made.

Are you saying that the casino/software has a memory bank of the players gambling? That would be really crazy & there would be no reason to play at all then!

#### dunover

##### Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Not a memory bank, but an adjustment to RTP values. If you are significantly down or up, you will inevitably see an adjustment over the coming sessions. What I am saying is that it is rare to be significantly up (and I mean getting a really big hit) immediately after joining. I'm surmising that those big win screenshots virtually all occurred after the poster had been playing at the casino a while and was showing a net loss prior. If I am wrong then as tirlej says I am 'stupid'...lol

#### dunover

##### Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
What you're saying here is so stupid so I can't understand that you are playing at all.

Of course you can win immediately and stay a winner. I have done that and it will take some time if ever to pay that back.

Is it? Like most gamblers you by impulse relate immediately or refer to an unusual triumph. I have done it too (once) and stayed well ahead because I closed the account. Compare that tirlej to all the times/accounts this didn't happen on. I am merely expressing an opinion based on my years' of experience and that of those I know.

#### IanO

##### Regular Human
I'd be interested to see someone truthfully say that within 1/2 hour of joining a casino they hit a massive win and were almost immediately in substantial profit. If things are truly random, this would happen quite frequently.

One example leaps to mind I'm sure you saw it yourself too. Recently we had a player make his second ever deposit, not a huge amount, start betting at 30p per spin and is now £5.8 million richer as a result. (me... shilly?! :O)

I get that you base your comments on your experience alone, which is fair enough, but as has been pointed out this is not how things are in reality, just how they may appear from your own perspective.

#### ChopleyIOM

webby
TBH I think we're losing sight of the OP's point, which is the results of the specific game in question look seriously dodgy and not consistent with random behaviour.

#### dunover

##### Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
One example leaps to mind I'm sure you saw it yourself too. Recently we had a player make his second ever deposit, not a huge amount, start betting at 30p per spin and is now £5.8 million richer as a result. (me... shilly?! :O)

I get that you base your comments on your experience alone, which is fair enough, but as has been pointed out this is not how things are in reality, just how they may appear from your own perspective.

Yes, I saw the thread about a large win on the bingo site you refer to, someone had a good Christmas lol.....
(I hope he didn't have to go through a 'pending w/d period)

Like I said though, in general the facts would bear this out to be highly unusual, sort of like 'My granny smoked 120 fags a day and drank 2 bottles of scotch and lived to 116' OK, she did , but then you could name 250,000 who did the same and didn't.......People become so influenced by the exceptions that sometimes their expectations and reality become distorted.

#### dunover

##### Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
TBH I think we're losing sight of the OP's point, which is the results of the specific game in question look seriously dodgy and not consistent with random behaviour.

Yes, we (I) digress and await with interest developments on this particular software/game.

#### Westland Bowl

##### Tin Foil Hat Club Member
PABnonaccred
CAG
I believe this suspected manipulated outcomes is applicable to online blackjack games too and not only to Betfred's software brand.

#### Balthazar

##### The Governor
This thread reminds me of this story, especially since hi-lo and the double feature are similar games.

#### Nifty29

##### Dormant account
I believe this suspected manipulated outcomes is applicable to online blackjack games too and not only to Betfred's software brand.

I assume you have some data to back this up, as usual?

I'm looking forward to Eliot investigating this hi lo game. Personally, I wouldn't play such a game, but regardless it should be 100% random.

#### deucebag

##### Full Member
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
This game seems to be provided by a company called "Realistic Games" (the irony!) and they offer games through several UK bookies.

The saddest thing is there have been so many cases of proven rigged (non-random) games over the years, but the gaming industry don't suffer any consequences. There's really little incentive for gaming companies to offer fair (i.e. random) games under the current legal and regulatory environment. I'd like to see fines issued by regulatory authorities, or licenses yanked. Criminal prosecution for fraud should be considered (though proving intent could be a problem).

#### katie91

##### Banned User - Player Fraud
I had some requests to see the videos of the log files so I've uploaded them to my Dropbox. You can view them here:

#### Eliot Jacobson

##### Dormant account
Greetings,

I am investigating this matter. After it is complete, I will make a public statement. I hope Betfred will take this investigation seriously.

Kind regards,

Eliot

#### ChopleyIOM

webby
Well at least no one's missing a Jaguar this time

an eye opener...

#### Seventh777

##### RIP Roy
Thanks, I have sent him a message.

Yw, it's the least I could do after you put forward a highly detailed and well presented case. An aspect of card games that has been proven to be rigged after a thorough investigation, in at least one occurrence that I can think off.

I'm not sure just how big a sample is needed before making a true assessment, but, your brother provided a thorough analysis and posted the results in such a highly professional and expert manner, that it has warranted attention by Eliot himself .

#### Westland Bowl

##### Tin Foil Hat Club Member
PABnonaccred
CAG
I assume you have some data to back this up, as usual?

I'm looking forward to Eliot investigating this hi lo game. Personally, I wouldn't play such a game, but regardless it should be 100% random.

What kind of data? Usually I always read that millions of hands are necessary to sufficiently provide proof of non-randomness or that a game is not rigged. So, no, I do not have millions or even hundred thousand hands of my blackjack data nor am I likely to even get near that many hands in my lifetime. I don't think it is necessary to play that much before deciding it is rigged.

I guess the only way to show that a blackjack game is rigged if I use a betting strategy is to play a known RNG-only blackjack game for a few thousand hands using my betting strategy- then compare that play to my results on online casino blackjack games. I suspect most online casinos use player betting analysis algorithm in addition to a RNG to counter the player's betting strategy.

#### vinylweatherman

What kind of data? Usually I always read that millions of hands are necessary to sufficiently provide proof of non-randomness or that a game is not rigged. So, no, I do not have millions or even hundred thousand hands of my blackjack data nor am I likely to even get near that many hands in my lifetime. I don't think it is necessary to play that much before deciding it is rigged.

I guess the only way to show that a blackjack game is rigged if I use a betting strategy is to play a known RNG-only blackjack game for a few thousand hands using my betting strategy- then compare that play to my results on online casino blackjack games. I suspect most online casinos use player betting analysis algorithm in addition to a RNG to counter the player's betting strategy.

It depends on what is being looked for. If a game is severely "rigged", it doesn't take much data to demonstrate it. Eliot is likely to reach an initial view, and then try his own tests to produce a view than he feels confident about putting his name to.

The data itself didn't seem that striking in terms of the frequencies, but the additional factor of the very clear split between the colours, with the colour NOT being the subject of the bet appearing more frequently at ALL it's possible values than ANY value associated with the colour being staked.

The rules suggest that this is a zero house edge game, so over the long term nobody wins. It also seems to have no element of skill. Lastly, it seems very BORING to play more than a few hands, as the biggest return is 12x bet.

I do not understand why a zero edge game would be offered given that the operator can make no money on it overall, unless it is along the lines of the Betfair "zero lounge", designed to keep players playing in the hope that they will play games with a house edge. The "zero lounge" games also have an element of skill, so Betfair DO make money every time a player deviates from perfect strategy.

For the above game to work for the operator, there would have to be some element of strategy involved in achieving the 100% RTP.

If instead the outcomes are simply weighted in order to create the desired house edge, then it is a case of misrepresentation on the rules page, as the outcomes would NOT be "random" in the true sense, and the RTP would not be 100%.

#### premiergaming

##### Banned User - bogus PAB
PABnoaccred
Interesting case you have there. (cant wait for the verdict)

But..

Another case of check the casino , check the License and check the software provider.

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