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Example of "seeding" and "dumping"

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by cipher, Aug 5, 2004.

    Aug 5, 2004
  1. cipher

    cipher Banned member - being a jerk

    Attached is a Cipher strand from a RTG casino played this morning.

    This is a perfect example of the dumping and seeding of lesser valued cards to create a maximum advantage for the house. Believe me there is nothing random about this and it is not something only happens with RTG.

    First off, a five card 17 for the house @ line 17 triggers an appreciable run of player losses from lines 20 thru 26.

    Secondly, a 6 card 22 @ line 37 for the house triggers a run of 2, trigger, 2, trigger, 2 @ lines 38 through 49.

    Third, a 6 card 19 @ line 46 carries forward to a mega run for the house from lines 52 through and inclusive of line 73.

    Have a good one.
  2. Aug 6, 2004
  3. Sorcerak

    Sorcerak Dormant account

    How can you make any kind of statistical evidence over such a small amount of hands? Just curious.
  4. Aug 6, 2004
  5. cipher

    cipher Banned member - being a jerk

    Hi Sorcerak,

    I really don't consider the Cipher strands as being statistical evidence.

    In this day and age it makes a lot more sense for me to get the hell out of a session that is not looking right (through utilizing Cipher) than it does for me to file a law suit.

    Basically the compilation of the Cipher strands in realtime assist me in figuring out a session of blackjack as it is being played. Trust me, each and every session of Blackjack is unique and Cipher is only the tool that I use to figure out each session.

    Thanks for your interest. Have a good one.
  6. Aug 6, 2004
  7. largeeyes

    largeeyes Dormant account

    North America
    Do people who use cipher dress in black suits and wear sunglasses? :cool:
  8. Aug 6, 2004
  9. fortyoz

    fortyoz Dormant account

    I've felt cheated a few times online, but sometimes in land casinos these things happen, and I know they aren't rigged, sometimes i'll win every single hand in the shoe ( 10 in a row often ), upping my bet as I go, other days I can barely win a single hand, across multiple sessions.. the game is just like that. Of course online you never know what they could be up to.

    Btw, does your tool collect the data automagically or do you enter it by hand as you go?
  10. Aug 8, 2004
  11. rilski

    rilski Dormant account

    Hi Cipher, I've been reading your posts and screenshots from your program for a while and find them quite interesting and helpful...so thank you. I was wondering though, could you reattach the above screen shots? When I look at them the numbers are too blurry to read for some reason, they seem of a lower quality than your usual ciper strands. Thank you.
  12. Aug 8, 2004
  13. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account


    I've often thought that if you could work out how the peculiarly un-random rngs of the on-line casinos work you could make a lot of money. Obviously if you've done so you're not going to want to share it with the world, but could you explain what you mean by seeding and dumping of low value cards, for instance.

    As I understand it:

    1) The casinos claim the rng generates random cards each hand, so there shouldn't really be any relation between the cards that have been dealt and the following cards (unless you're playing multi-hand bj). This means there should be fewer long winning/losing sequences on-line - something we all know not to be the case...

    2) If there is a relation wouldn't a lot of low-value cards appearing then favour the player in the following hands? From my very basic understanding of card counting I thought the more face cards and fewer low cards around the better the chances for the player.

    Anyway, keep up the good work and try and win enough to scare the casinos into playing fairly! :thumbsup:
  14. Aug 8, 2004
  15. fortyoz

    fortyoz Dormant account

    Other way around, more tens/aces favor player.
  16. Aug 8, 2004
  17. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    That's what I wrote, I think. I was assuming if a lot of low cards appear in one hand then after that there might be more high cards, but perhaps the seeding/dumping was just that there continued to be a huge of run of low cards. I couldn't really view the screen shot properly.
  18. Aug 8, 2004
  19. cipher

    cipher Banned member - being a jerk

    I apologize for the poor quality of the last posting that I made. I will re-post that data again this morning. But it will probably be in a couple of hours or so. Have a good one.
  20. Aug 8, 2004
  21. cipher

    cipher Banned member - being a jerk

    Hi Vesuvio;

    Before long Cipher will be available but I'll make the same disclaimer now that I'll be making when Cipher is released.

    Cipher is a tool. Like any tool it takes a certain amount of dedication from the person using Cipher to learn the capabilites of Cipher through a great deal of practice and diligence.

    After playing better than 6,000,000 hands of Blackjack on the Internet. I've found that when I see a great many small cards "dumping" on predominately the dealer side, that generally indicates that a severe change in the win/loss ratio is about to occur and rarely does that change bode well to the benefit of the player.

    In traditional counting, The manner in which you count is Ace thru 6 are plus cards, 7-8-9 = no count cards and 10 thru and inclusive of kings are minus count cards. In traditionally counting a six to eight deck shoe I generally look for a plus 43 count before I wager any larger sums of money.

    With blackjack on the internet there is no cut card so a person has no place to begin or end the count. I've posted a re-post of the attachments on this thread in another thread this morning that is much clearer and you'll be able to see the exact correlation that I draw incident to lower valued cards.

    Thanks for your interest and have a good one.
  22. Aug 9, 2004
  23. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    A couple of years ago I actually did this. I noticed a pattern in Microgaming's craps game that I would get boxcars (double 6's) every 20 or so rolls. It was almost like clockwork at least at a couple of casinos I played then. I'd just bet $1 on pass and roll roll roll till I was at about the 20 roll level without a craps 12 and then I'd put $5 or $10 on the 30:1 craps 12 box. Came up within a couple of rolls. It was surprisingly predictable and with some promos that casino was doing on occasion, I made a pretty penny there.

    Then one day, there was a software update and guess what? :confused: Suddenly the craps rolls were far more random and this trick never worked the same again.
  24. Aug 9, 2004
  25. cipher

    cipher Banned member - being a jerk

    At that point JPM, I guess the software made a randomness update.
  26. Aug 9, 2004
  27. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    Something I tried just for amusement - seemed their might be a pattern, but I wouldn't want to put a lot of money on it!

    Use the autoplay for a hundred spins of microgaming roulette - say betting on red. Then look at the stats and it tells you which numbers have been hit - usually about two haven't come up in the 100 spins. Put some money on them and have a few more spins & the couple of times I've tried it one of them quickly appeared...

    Not exactly convinced it's a foolproof system to beat the casinos, though :D
  28. Aug 9, 2004
  29. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    Something like that. It could have been a random update too! ;) There was definitely a backend update I think. It never played the same after that, and nothing else in the s/w seemed to change (kinda like those RTG updates you see sometimes).

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