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Entropay and Bet365 stole $4750

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by aodat2, Dec 30, 2006.

    Dec 30, 2006
  1. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    As I said on my previous post, I had problems with Party Poker.

    Now after Party Poker told Entropay about the multiple accounts, Entropay decided to actually close my account with them because they were not comfortable with the situation.

    Previously, I have also used Entropay to fund my Bet365 account. I have funded it with $1000 and now I'm withdrawing $5750. After a few days of waiting, I got an email from Bet365 saying that my account was suspended with them because Entropay closed my account and that the decision to suspend my account was FINAL.

    What did I do wrong with Bet365? Why did they take my winnings? The decision to close my Entropay account was not even mine to begin with. I didn't even do anything wrong with Entropay. I even went to the point where I sent them ALL information regarding my Credit Card and even sent them a picture ID and etc.

    Now Bet365 is still saying that they do not want to pay me for the winnings on my account solely because Entropay has closed my account.

    If anyone ever use Entropay and has ever come across such a situation, can you please help or advice on what I should do next? Thank you very much!
     
  2. Dec 30, 2006
  3. SKUNX

    SKUNX Banned User

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    Costa Rica
    I am surprised that BET365 would do that , I have had several cashouts from them and you might say I am ahead a couple of thousands and even then NOT one issue .

    But there are NO grounds to close your account just because you had an issue with a payment processor!

    I never got shut down anywere when I had problems with Neteller , keep fighting if all is like you say then they owe you $5750 PERIOD!
     
  4. Dec 30, 2006
  5. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Well... that's the exact story. I don't know how to go on fighting already as they keep telling me that the decision is final and that my account will be suspended indefinitely.

    Do you think I should PAB? Would anyone be able to help? Bet365 is a very reputable group and I do believe that they are not such BIG crooks!

    My problem with the payment processor is not their problem. Why steal my money? Why suspend my account? What did I do wrong? All I did was win a few thousand bucks with them and now they are not willing to pay me.

    Seriously, $4750 is a very HUGE amount of money for me. If anyone knows some way of getting help, I would definitely appericiate it a lot.

    Thank you very much for your comment.
     
  6. Dec 30, 2006
  7. jerrylee

    jerrylee Dormant account

    Occupation:
    policymaker
    Location:
    Playa del Vaquero (I wish)
    aodat2 can you put the entropay issue behind you and offer bet365 that you will register a neteller account with them, asking them to reopen your account?
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Dec 30, 2006
  9. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Thanks a lot jerrylee,

    I would definitely love to register a Neteller account if it's possible for me to do so but unfortunately, Neteller is not available in Malaysia. I've checked it many times.

    By the way, I could not even move the account or do anything with it even if I wanted to. My account is now suspended. They have already said that they will not reopen the account. Why? I don't know!

    I really need help! Can someone with experience please help?
     
  10. Dec 30, 2006
  11. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Letter

    Write to Party Poker (copy to Entropay & Bet365) threatening to sue for damages as their unexplained action has cost you winnings at Bet365 who are treating you adversely for the actions of Party Poker and Entropay.
    The more solicitor like the letter, the better. If you can get a solicitor to draft it better still.
    The aim is not to need to take them to court, but to call their bluff as court action will open their actions to scrutiny. If their grounds are flimsy, damages would be payable due to the "defamation" aspect with Bet365.
    This tactic works more often than you might think, but you must appear as though you fully intend to follow through.

    Casinos pull these stunts because they think themselves outside the court system, and most complainants will not go this far. Party Poker is listed on the London stock market, and would certainly be worried if you proposed action in an English court, and they may feel $5500 is enough to prompt you to follow through.

    If their bluff is called, you should get an out of court offer made that should result in a proper explanation and payment of all monies due. They probably won't reopen the accounts, but you will have been paid, and can put it behind you.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Dec 30, 2006
  13. jerrylee

    jerrylee Dormant account

    Occupation:
    policymaker
    Location:
    Playa del Vaquero (I wish)
    Interesting approach. What does a solicitor style letter look like?
     
  14. Dec 31, 2006
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well Written


    It will be properly constructed, and use a few legal terms. It won't be over complicated and will be right to the point. It will be on decent quality notepaper, computer printed but signed by hand. The letter will probably have a company header with contact details.
    There are many legal websites that give consumer advice. Some will have draft copies of the common legal letters, just fill in the gaps. I used such a site to try to claim for an endowment shortfall, which constructed a template formal letter of complaint to which I added my own specific details.

    While it would be best to get a solicitor to draft it, a preliminary letter could look like it came from a "legal advisor" as a prelude to instructing a solicitor. You could write this yourself, but do NOT claim to be a solicitor as this would be against the rules of misrepresentation. If Party THINK that you MAY be a solicitor, this will be enough.
     
  16. Dec 31, 2006
  17. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    That would be my ABSOLUTE last solution to the problem.

    Will never do such a thing until there's totally and absolutely no way out!

    I have just gotten off the phone with Bet365 again and now they're telling me that Entropay was the ones who actually adviced them to close my account. There's nothing more they could do and I'd have to take it up with Entropay regarding this issue.

    Entropay asking them to close my account???? What has Entropay got to do with Bet365 other than just a Payment Provider?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2006
  18. Dec 31, 2006
  19. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    This would be a breach of T&C's with Party Poker. Do you have multiple accounts with Entropay? Did you fund your multiple accounts at Party Poker with Entropay?

    You are not being very clear on why PP would choose to notify other vendors on your accounting unless they feel something just doesn't feel right especially when they have nothing to gain (vs your withdrawal from Bet365). Feels as if the story is only half told?

    Did they find more than 1 account in your name for funding?
     
  20. Dec 31, 2006
  21. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Actually if you look a few threads back, you will see my reasoning for Party Poker and Entropay.

    As for Entropay, I *did not* have more than 1 account with them. Only 1 account to my name. I do have additional information sent to me by Entropay which I have forwarded to Bryan. I will stop discussing this till I get word from Bryan about this.

    I'm sorry but I do not want to make the situation worse by flaming or doing anything stupid which might compromise my situation with Bet365. Will update you guys on the situation once everything is settled.

    Sorry again.
     
  22. Jan 1, 2007
  23. dingo

    dingo Dormant account

    Lets get some facts straight. I happen to be connected with EntroPay at the present timeBet365 and EntroPay do not close accounts randomly.

    It happens that aodat2 has recently created a number of accounts with EntroPay with conflicting details and tried registering multiple credit cards. Although aodat2 has tried giving us all sorts of excuses for this behaviour like for instance being the victim of identity theft in the past or using a wireless connection all our evidence indicates that he has opened the accounts in bad faith.

    It is hilarious for aodat2 to complain about the treatment he received when upon checking our records I find that we have someone who has opened an EntroPay Account using username aodat2 (and using the same name/address) back in 2005 on which we have received chargebacks!

    All merchants have a zero tolerance level for fraud. aodat2 has all the credentials for a fraudster and all his deposits were refunded in full to avoid being hit by him again.
     
  24. Jan 1, 2007
  25. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Excuse me, Dingo.

    If I were opening the account in bad faith, can you please explain to me why would I actually give you guys copies of my Credit Card and even the authorization letter?

    Next, I don't think I have an account with Entropay before this. If you think I do have it, then can you please match addresses or give me proof of this. I have never had an account with Entropay before this at all. By the way, I've not even seen the word Entropay till lately.

    FYI, I have just spoken to all banks in Malaysia and yes, there are cards and even 1 loan account under my name which has my ID included with it. I've already alerted the authorities about this and if you need a copy of the Police report, I would be more than willing to provide that. NO I've not been a victim of identity theft before this... it happened recently only.

    Next, I opened 1 account with Entropay. 1 and 1 only, no more. No less. My mother also opened an account with Entropay. Since we're in the same house, I'm very sure we have the same IP address as we are on a wireless network together. My mother's address and my address may be the same now but we have 3 houses all together. I don't even know which address she used to open the Entropay account. So if you don't mind telling me what you mean by "conflicting details", I'd be happy to answer your question with it.

    By the way, I got my 1st credit card at the end of year 2005 (November). So if you think I could have created an account with you guys and chargedback in the year 2005, then I guess credit cards just appear out of nowhere for me. Hahaha...

    Please don't come accusing me of being a Fraudster when I did specifically provide you guys copies of my credit card and ID and etc. If I were a fraudster, you wouldn't have gotten any ID or etc from me. Don't be stupid. If I did chargeback on 2005, would I be crazy enough to give you my ID now? You're just making no sense.
     
  26. Jan 1, 2007
  27. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Better be sure.

    You had better be sure of the facts, as by telling Bet365 you have defamed him/her, causing loss of winnings.

    Identity theft IS COMMON, and does look like fraud. If someone is using a stolen identity they will milk it for all it is worth, and they will not necessarily be subtle as they will want to gain as much as possible as quickly as possible.
    Before claiming definite fraud, casinos and processors must make certain that it really is not someone else using the details. It seems too many casinos cry "fraud" at the drop of a hat and give the player no option to clear themselves. Now when a real case of fraud comes along you find the forum has great sympathy for the player as so often the "fraud" is just a casino looking to avoid paying a "clever" player who has played some promotion to the best of their abilities.
     
  28. Jan 1, 2007
  29. dingo

    dingo Dormant account

    Some persons will try to do their utmost to convince you they're legitimate...especially a tenacious one like yourself who has an understanding of wireless networks and who tries to make up excuses when confronted with contradicting information.

    Untrue, the account on which we have received chargebacks from you is dated 6/21/05. And you can't claim it isn't your account or that you were the victim of identity theft because we corresponded with you at the time using your business e-mail address. You aren't the victim, rather we are the victims of your actions. We discovered this new account (EntroPay Username: aodat2) by sheer coincidence, however, it can't be a coincidence that you're posting with the same id here. This is not a case of ‘identity theft’.

    In any case we had already compiled sufficient evidence to conclude that you were operating the accounts in bad faith (even before discovering the mentioned account above) – you deny the operation of multiple accounts but our evidence shows otherwise. All accounts were accessed from a common ip address and have the same time stamp. We have enough evidence of ‘suspicious activity’ to justify the closure of your accounts. We have reversed all your transactions and returned all your funds to where they came from.

    I am not going to discuss this further here or define "suspicious activity" beyond activity that is considered a threat to the cardholder or to the system. Details about such matters will certainly not be posted publicly and the fewest amount of details would even be discussed with the cardholder. EntroPay is not in the business of helping to educate someone who might be trying to fraud the system about better ways to do it.

    To conclude it is not in our interests to close an account unless the account holder has abused the system or the account holder has done something which could be considered illegal or against banking regulations.

    I find this difficult to believe when you have been posting on winneronline since 2003...

    We have no conflicts of interest and gain nothing from closing a client's account as we are a payment processor. Rather, we'd like to extend the lifetime of a client as much as possible and value big legitimate clients as our profit margins are volume dependent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2007
  30. Jan 1, 2007
  31. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Ah!

    Does this mean that online gambling is LEGAL on aodat2's country of residence - I though the opposite.
    Several countries have extended families that might use the same facility from the same household. What might look odd in the US or the UK may be common practice in other parts of the word. Simply having several active accounts from one household is not necessarily fraud provided the users can provide appropriate ID verification documents.
    The chargebacks in 2005 are a different matter, this was wrong, and an explanation is needed from aodat2 as to why these were not related to him or another member of the family. Since aodat2 categorically states he had no credit cards till recently, a look at his credit reference files should throw light on the matter. The payment processor should do this, and aodat2 should continue to pursue this ID theft business.

    I have noticed that aodat2 has been a member here since 2003, as well as winner online. If aodat2 had claimed to have been interested in online gambling recently I would have been suspicious, but he claims to have his first credit card recently, and could easily have funded gambling by other means.
    Most fraudulent players tend to join Casinomeister and start complaining straight away, often as "one post wonders". It is unusual to see a long time member busted for fraud.
    Anyone can go back through all of aodat2's postings, and see if they are consistent with the current story. Bryan can look more deeply at registration information to see if there are duplicate Casinomeister accounts with the same details that have been involved in player fraud issues in the past.

    There are just too many instances of casinos using any excuse to get out of paying winners - and again Bet365 have used the closure of the Entropay account as reason to close a Bet365 account. The only reason I can think of is that Entropay told Bet365 that they would not honour the original deposit as they had decided to close the account and return all deposits to source - so Bet365, faced with what is in effect a chargeback initiated by Entropay, closes aodat2's account and locks the winnings. If aodat2 was in "good standing" to fund the Bet365 deposit, Entropay may have acted out of line as this transaction had nothing to do with the Party dispute.

    If casinos (and processors), did not try to "muddy the waters" between player fraud and "bonus abuse", there would be more sympathy for the casinos and processors in such cases, as it is this last year has seen players screwed left, right, and centre - with the most ridiculous excuses to date "Multi hand VP is not VP" "illegitimate play that is neither fraud, bonus abuse, nor a scam" "he played in the wrong currency (non GBP)".
     
  32. Jan 1, 2007
  33. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Just FYI, I registered the account over here when I was still studying in the USA. I finished studying at year 2004. I could easily prove this by showing you my passport and also my letter of admission and even the transcript of my University.

    Any American can tell you that when you open up a checking account with most banks (I'm not sure if all do this), they will automatically issue you a Check Card (Debit Card). Again, at that point of time, online gambling in the US is still legal (in the grey area).

    I came back in the middle of year 2004 to Malaysia so think about this. If you just came back to your country and do not have a job, would your bank issue you a credit card straight away? I don't think so! It took me more than 1 year before I could get my 1st Credit Card. I'm sure every country would have the same rules or almost the same rules and I'm sure banks would not be so crazy as to issue you a Credit Card right after you start work.

    I have been using the name or id "aodat2" throughout the web. I'm sure nobody else is using it. I even had the same username in TalkGold.com and it was hijacked a while back and used wrongly. Anyone who stole my ID would easily have known and used my username anywhere. I do not use any other usernames usually unless my username "aodat2" has been taken up. Please if you're talking about usernames, it's so simple to know mine as I don't change it and use the same one all over!

    By the way, when I was in the US, I have the privilage of using Neteller, Firepay, ACH, Debit Card and etc. But when I'm back here in Malaysia, there's no way of using any of those as Neteller does not allow Malaysians, Firepay and ACH is US and Canada only and also Malaysia just came out with the "Debit Card" concept about 3 months ago but I've had one which I have tried at a Casino and got a call from my bank within 20 minutes of trying. They told me that the Debit Card does not support or allow transactions to "Online Casinos" or other "Gambling" transactions! In fact, ANY gambling transactions other than the approved "lotto" is considered illegal in Malaysia yet Entropay took my deposit and allowed it to be used in Bet365.

    If it's from a common IP and have the same time stamp, then it would be a good thing to prove that I'm not the only person using it. It means that there's another person with another computer using it at the same time!!! Unless I have 4 hands, I would not be able to make everything have the same timestamp.

    Please do have a look at my Credit Reference. I would be willing to put everything I have on the line if you could prove to anyone that I have a Credit Card between mid 2004 and end of 2005. Furthermore, I provided copies of the card and my ID to Entropay upon request. My question is would a Fraudster actually do this? Would a Fraudster actually provide any documentations to anyone upon request and talk about it in public? I totally doubt it!
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2007
  34. Jan 4, 2007
  35. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Entropay

    Entropay seems to be a prepaid VISA card. It is regulated by the UK FSA.

    I would like to know what "dingo's" position is with Entropay, management, customer rep etc.


    There are two further potential grounds for complaint open to aodat2. Firstly, "dingo" has demonstrated that he/she had access to aodat2's personal data held at Entropay. If "dingo" is NOT an employee of Entropay with appropriate clearance to access the data, then an offence under the UK Data Protection act has been committed. Complaints should be addressed to the Data Commissioner. Court action is not necessary. The complaint must be made by the person whose data has been misused. Secondly, as Entropay is supposed to be an ANONYMOUS means of online payment, a further breach has possibly been committed by informing Bet365 of any personal data relating to aodat2 that is unnecessary for the purpose of transacting the deposit to Bet365. If Bet365 were informed that Entropay were closing the account due to a dispute between aodat2 and Party, this would be a breach of privacy. Again, complaints to the Data Commissioner.
    As to lost money, if the money has been retained by Entropay, complaints to the UK FSA. The main problem is going to be that the aggrieved party is a foreign national; however, I am sure that the case will be at least looked at as any implication that the UK will allow companies to hide behind UK regulation thinking they can screw non UK residents because they are not covered will render the UK's forthcoming remote gaming regulation as useful as the proverbial chocolate teapot.


    A further point as to why Party would recommend Entropay in the first place is to be found in their affiliate deal - not much different to the deal that CASINOS offer to their affiliates. It seems that a percentage of the fees charged to the customer for using Entropay are paid to the merchant as a reward for promoting Entropay.

    Entropay would seem to be a proper UK regulated company, and this makes it VERY unlikely that the replies from "dingo" are in any way "official", which leaves the big question, how did "dingo" get hold of aodat2's personal information in order to counter the accusations in a public forum, yet it appears that the "dedicated support" was unable to help aodat2 privately.

    Entropay are acting illegally by knowingly allowing gaming transactions from players in Malaysia, where it is currently illegal by law. Since they know who their merchants are, and what they do, and their member's country of residence, the "we didn't know" will not wash. Accepting transactions for gaming from the US is a different matter, gaming itself is not illegal, and a UK company with no offices in the US is not subject to the Safe Ports act.

    If it gets to a court argument, Entropay will have to prove beyond "reasonable doubt" that aodat2 has acted fraudulently in order to justify their actions. They must show that the earlier account was indeed used by aodat2 as a means of making VISA payments from a card while knowing that the payments would not be honoured by the issuer.
    It is possible that a bureaucratic cock-up somewhere between Party, Entropay, and issuing banks has caused all this, leading to misidentification of some account information. This may not have been helped by the nature of aodat2's study and work arrangements, and the somewhat "backward" nature of the Malaysian banking systems with regard to using Debit cards, and not taking into account aodat2's credit record while in the US in deciding whether to grant a Malaysian credit card.

    If casinos continue in this vein, they may as well stipulate that only certain members of the community may participate, those that don't work/study away from home, don't pay rent to a landlord who takes care of utilities as inclusive, has credit and debit cards, and either drives or has a passport (even though travelling widely and playing at the same time seems a major cause of problems).
     
    1 person likes this.
  36. Jan 4, 2007
  37. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Thanks for the feedback vinylweatherman.

    I've been working with Party these few days trying to resolve the problem and they would like my Police Report so as to prove that an Identity Theft has occurred and after that, the will have to pass it to their own legal department and etc to investigate further.

    So, I guess my problem with Party is almost resolved. They have already agreed to have a look at my case and not only that, they will also be investigating on this case which is a good thing.

    Now, the problem is only with Entropay and Bet365. Not even Party is involved in this matter anymore.

    This is a portion from an email I received from PartyGaming recently. The part before this talks about my Party account(s) and also what I should do and etc to get it resolved with them so it's not really relevant in this case.

    ==========================================================
    As you may appereciate we are committed to a policy of secure client confidentiality & data protection. We are not able to discuss any of our gaming accounts with anyone other than the registered account holder.
    Any issues you have with Entropay are separate to the issues that you have with us.

    As I am sure you are aware Entropay have their own seciruty procedures between themselves & their clients & any grievance you have must be directed to them.

    Regards

    Risk Management Executive
    PartyGaming
    This email is not visible to you.
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
    ==========================================================

    So, I don't know where did Entropay get the information from or etc but I'm sure that since Party Gaming actually "washed" their hands off this matter, it only leaves Entropay with the problem.

    I will definitely UPDATE you guys on what happens on next.

    Thanks everyone for your comments and your questions.

    Ps. A very interesting fact is that I get replies from Entropay Support in about 48 hours and above but if I post it here, "dingo" seems to come and reply within hours (less than 12 hours). Does this imply something?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2007
  38. Jan 4, 2007
  39. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Since this "dingo" fella like to tell the public so much stuff, I might as well take this opportunity to show you guys an email from Entropay as well. Would be totally nice to see how he defends himself this time.

    ==================================================
    Dear Aaron,

    Thank you for your email and the faxed documents.

    Please note that we have received word from PartyPoker that one of your accounts has been permanently closed with themselves due to financial fraud.

    This is something that we take very seriously and are therefore unable to reactivate any of your accounts that you have with ourselves.

    You accounts xxxx and xxxx will all be closed and we shall inform bet365 accordingly of our findings.


    Kind Regards,

    Carrie
    EntroPay Security Team
    ==================================================

    By the way, 1 account was mine and the other is my mom's account. The linkk it together via IP and deduce that both is mine.

    Dingo, try explaining this!
     

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