Your Input Please End of 'reverse withdrawals' nigh?

SlotGrinder

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England
Any casino that relies on people reversing withdrawals can close for me. If their profit margin is that low, then chances are they won't pay you if you get a big win anyway.

Heres a mad idea, when I deposit it takes seconds. How about when I withdraw its done in the same time it takes to take the money.

Would be nice but the casino has to check for certain things like bonus abuse and the like . And even though each account might take only a few minutes to check if theres a long queue of people withdrawing it will obviously take a bit of time . I think a couple of hours is reasonable enough . A few sites manage it much more quickly that that but its usually when u are a more established regular player
 

colinsunderland

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Would be nice but the casino has to check for certain things like bonus abuse and the like . And even though each account might take only a few minutes to check if theres a long queue of people withdrawing it will obviously take a bit of time . I think a couple of hours is reasonable enough . A few sites manage it much more quickly that that but its usually when u are a more established regular player

Yes but if its a cash deposit with no bonus then theres no need to keep a withdrawal pending. I get that smaller casinos might not be able to do them instantly, but they should certainly be processed within 24 hours, no excuse for it to take any longer at all. I'm sure the process could be automated too if no bonus was used, therefore doing it instantly. The likes of 32Red who can take a week+ to get your money back into your bank, take the piss.
 

EkJR

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Blimey dunover, I think you're stretching a bit there. After (correctly) identifying allowing reversals as 'abhorrent', you've not really got much to hang 'it'll be bad for players' on.

If a THIRD of withdrawals are getting reversed in some cases, then this is a massive issue, and I think it stands to reason that those most likely to reverse are those with RG issues, so prohibiting reversals is clearly going to help out problem gamblers, which we all agree is a good thing I take it?

Personally I think the reversal system stinks to high heaven, I've never reversed myself but I can totally understand how some people crack and reverse, as hours turns into days, and their rightful winnings are still being held hostage by the casino.

And the thing is, if the withdrawal is being held for verification purposes, extra checks, customer safety and all the other bullshit they come out with, why is the withdrawal available to be reversed? It should be locked until those checks are complete, not reversible.

The casino is effectively saying, 'You can't have your money yet because of things a, b and c which are REALLY IMPORTANT and FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, as soon as a, b and c are finished, you can have your money. Oh, unless you want to just lose all your money by reversing right now, in which case we don't give a fuck about a, b and c any longer and you can get your cash now by pressing this handy big CANCEL WITHDRAWAL button in your cashier screen.'

If any casinos out there do rely on margins from reversals to keep their heads above water, then I'm afraid it's probably best that they're not around to prey on people in their moments of weakness.

Great post. Last section is pertinent I think. The industry needs the bullshit operators to go away and leave proper financially sustainable operators, large or small, to pick this up and improve the whole overall experience. Reverse withdrawals cause nothing but problems.
 

dunover

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Blimey dunover, I think you're stretching a bit there. After (correctly) identifying allowing reversals as 'abhorrent', you've not really got much to hang 'it'll be bad for players' on.

If a THIRD of withdrawals are getting reversed in some cases, then this is a massive issue, and I think it stands to reason that those most likely to reverse are those with RG issues, so prohibiting reversals is clearly going to help out problem gamblers, which we all agree is a good thing I take it?

Personally I think the reversal system stinks to high heaven, I've never reversed myself but I can totally understand how some people crack and reverse, as hours turns into days, and their rightful winnings are still being held hostage by the casino.

And the thing is, if the withdrawal is being held for verification purposes, extra checks, customer safety and all the other bullshit they come out with, why is the withdrawal available to be reversed? It should be locked until those checks are complete, not reversible.

The casino is effectively saying, 'You can't have your money yet because of things a, b and c which are REALLY IMPORTANT and FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, as soon as a, b and c are finished, you can have your money. Oh, unless you want to just lose all your money by reversing right now, in which case we don't give a fuck about a, b and c any longer and you can get your cash now by pressing this handy big CANCEL WITHDRAWAL button in your cashier screen.'

If any casinos out there do rely on margins from reversals to keep their heads above water, then I'm afraid it's probably best that they're not around to prey on people in their moments of weakness.


Sorry, that does sound contradictory and I should have qualified that statement better! What I meant was those casinos DELIBERATELY using the reverse when they've no reason to because they can pay 24/7 or that impose deliberate 72-96 hour pending periods like many of the Playtech sites did (or still do?) plus those sites intentionally lengthening the period to take advantage of reversals. Back in Easter 2016 IIRC there was a particularly controversial incidence of this when you were on your 4-year hiatus from CM, but without opening up old wounds I'll leave that for some other long-timer to enlighten you about. They'll know what I'm on about.

What I wasn't referring to were smaller sites who don't have the facility to pay 24/7 or their processor won't so aren't too quick as a result. Nevertheless I suppose even those could lock them if they chose to.
 

PaaskeDenmark

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I just spunked a nice £160 pending withdrawal at Unibet last night.

The worst part is that you get a popup when clicking banking/deposit if you would like to cancel and reverse your outstanding withdrawal.

BUT even worse is you also get popup asking would you like to remove reverse possibility. It does FK all as still, the exact same thing can happen.

You have to go into settings and tick a box remove reverse option. But then any time you can go in and change it again.

They need to get their act together and have the option to remove a pending withdrawal.

Sadly despite being very experienced i fell into the trap last night :(
 

irish-ranger

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My withdrawal was reversible for three days and I was determined not to touch it.

Hopefully better times ahead.
Like my self last withdrawal on netbet sat pending for 4 days every time I logged on I was face with a pop up saying you have a pending withdrawals would u like to reverse.
Predator to say the least I can't see this action speeding things up though.
 

shadow123

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Amazes me how long its taken for reversals to be seriously looked at.It has always been the most predatary and cynical
feature and must have contributed millions to casinos take over the years.They even had the cheek to say its what the customer
wanted.I fell out with Red 32 when they removed flushing and never played there again so I didnt bloody want it.
The standard should be that all withdrawals are locked or at least if a locking feature is allowed it is set to lock by default
on every withdrawal and only be allowed to be unlocked for a very short period of time.Must confess in my earlier days
reversals cost me a lot of money but I finally learnt and havnt reversed for years.
 

EkJR

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Did LCCP change on this or are they using the code that they expect casinos to follow mandatory changes asap and what does asap mean??? Very grey again.
 

GameRoom

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OK, upon further examination of the article regarding UKGC Intentions from @News Hound I have found an indication that soon they are likely to examine the effect of reversals on responsible gambling. There is this little gem there, lower down:

"...….Consider whether we need to make changes to LCCP in order to ensure that consumers can withdraw funds more easily We are aware that some operators only undertake customer diligence checks at the point of withdrawal, which can delay the time it takes for consumers to access their funds. The improvements to customer identification outlined above are likely to remove the need for this in many cases because operators will have already completed these checks. However, some operators offer the ability to “reverse withdrawal”, a facility that enables consumers to cancel their request to withdraw funds prior to the funds being transferred to their account.
8 The CMA has also raised concerns about some of the practices associated with restricting customers from withdrawing funds. For example, these include unreasonably high minimum withdrawal limits, and terms that prevent consumers from withdrawing money they have deposited unless they wager its value in full once, or several times. The outcomes of the CMA investigation will inform our work on withdrawal of funds and help us to better assess the potential risk of harm associated with reverse withdrawals."

So what they are saying is that the new pre-verification will remove the excuse for holding up withdrawals as far as KYC goes and the logical next step is stop pending periods if demonstrated to be unfavourable to players.

One or two people already mentioned this likelihood in the pre-verification thread so it seems they are actually going to put an end to this abhorrent practice. :D

Mind you, knowing that anything from 15-35% of pending withdrawals are spunked back, this may be the final straw for many UK-facing smaller operators.

As I've said before, we are heading down the road to a small number of big to giant operators in the UK, nice cash cows for the arbitrary huge fines the UKGC likes collecting for every small transgression. Your corner shop will go, then you local mini-market and you've only the supermarket giants left to shop in....metaphorically speaking.
hop it will happen soon,so casino like Casumo cant hold or reverse cashout,I play in casumo for over a year they never ask me for id,I could easy be under 18 and play for year, now I hit 5 digit win they start asking me 100doc block me from cashout,but I can still deposit and play,all doc send now 6 days no awnser from casumo still pending
 

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colinsunderland

RIP Colin
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uk
It's not the same, no.

The result to the end user is the same though; cashed out funds reappearing as playable in the customer's account balance.
Yes, point being it isn't a breach of their LCCP, as it wasn't user reversed, which is what the changes were to stop.
 

GameRoom

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They didn't allow it to be reversed, it was cancelled, which isn't the same.
maybe not the same but casino still find the law gap to return withdraw on players balance,they can hold now withdraw for 72hrs and return to player,and prey to god they will play back and lose it,same what happen with ban bonus buy providars find the gap on law and made new games where u can buy bonus,when UKGC make new law they need to make it with out gap or big fine for casinos if they use any other law gap,whats the point making a law when casinos and providers find the gaps on law and ukgc do nothing about it
 

colinsunderland

RIP Colin
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uk
maybe not the same but casino still find the law gap to return withdraw on players balance,they can hold now withdraw for 72hrs and return to player,and prey to god they will play back and lose it,same what happen with ban bonus buy providars find the gap on law and made new games where u can buy bonus,when UKGC make new law they need to make it with out gap or big fine for casinos if they use any other law gap,whats the point making a law when casinos and providers find the gaps on law and ukgc do nothing about it
What did the UKGC say when you complained about it?
 

colinsunderland

RIP Colin
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uk
So has LCCP changed? If so, when?
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2. Licensees must take into account the Commission’s guidance on customer interaction. This guidance is issued further to the formal customer interaction guidance for remote operators of July 2019.

Due to the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and associated lockdown, licensees should ensure they have the following measures implemented into their customer interaction framework for the purposes of preventing gambling related harm:

a) Reviews of all thresholds and triggers used to track vulnerability to ensure that they reflect changed financial circumstances that many consumers will be experiencing. An emphasis should be placed on those thresholds and triggers being proactively reset on a precautionary basis to ensure customers with emerging vulnerability, such as increased time spent at play or increased spend can be identified

b) Specifically, review your time indicators to capture play in excess of 1 hour as this is a proxy for potential harm.

c) Set additional or modify existing thresholds and triggers which are specific to new customers reflecting an operator’s lack of knowledge of that individual’s play and spend patterns.

d) Implement processes that ensure the continual monitoring of your customer base, identifying customers whose patterns of play, spend or behaviours have changed in the last few weeks.

e) Conduct affordability assessments for individuals picked up by existing or new thresholds and triggers which indicate consumers experiencing harm. Consider limiting or blocking further play until the checks have been concluded and supporting evidence obtained.

f) Prevent reverse withdrawal options for customers until further notice.

g) Stop bonus offers or promotions to customers displaying indicators of harm
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EkJR

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2. Licensees must take into account the Commission’s guidance on customer interaction. This guidance is issued further to the formal customer interaction guidance for remote operators of July 2019.

Due to the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and associated lockdown, licensees should ensure they have the following measures implemented into their customer interaction framework for the purposes of preventing gambling related harm:

a) Reviews of all thresholds and triggers used to track vulnerability to ensure that they reflect changed financial circumstances that many consumers will be experiencing. An emphasis should be placed on those thresholds and triggers being proactively reset on a precautionary basis to ensure customers with emerging vulnerability, such as increased time spent at play or increased spend can be identified

b) Specifically, review your time indicators to capture play in excess of 1 hour as this is a proxy for potential harm.

c) Set additional or modify existing thresholds and triggers which are specific to new customers reflecting an operator’s lack of knowledge of that individual’s play and spend patterns.

d) Implement processes that ensure the continual monitoring of your customer base, identifying customers whose patterns of play, spend or behaviours have changed in the last few weeks.

e) Conduct affordability assessments for individuals picked up by existing or new thresholds and triggers which indicate consumers experiencing harm. Consider limiting or blocking further play until the checks have been concluded and supporting evidence obtained.

f) Prevent reverse withdrawal options for customers until further notice.

g) Stop bonus offers or promotions to customers displaying indicators of harm
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Yeah do you know the applicable date? Some casinos will say "ahh major IT project"" etc. That's what I couldn't see but I can ask them about it.
 

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