eCOGRA needs to make a decision about JACKPOT FACTORY... NOW!!

[mrracetrack]

After more than 3 days of people showing all the ridiculous and sleazy links to ALLSLOTS casino... and the GM of JackPot Factory doing little to nothing about this after promising he would... and the Casinomeister now having ROGUED this group...

eCOGRA needs to step up and deal with this... TODAY!!

Not "next week"... or next month... NOW!!

If eCOGRA ever expects to have ANY credibility... an official decision by them is necessary NOW.

Perhaps eCOGRA can also respond to this:

Posted by RobWin

1. What in the hell is eCOGRA actually approving their seal at these casinos for? ie; Integrity; Safe site; Consistent payout; Responsible operator conduct.


2. Does eCOGRA not actually do web searches of the casino before they are getting ready to approve for seal just to check and make sure that the casino site or web searches are not advertising this BS?


3. Does eCOGRA not ever police or follow up on searches to periodically check in on the sites that they have seal approved?


4. Does eCOGRA give seal approval and then never check on casino unless some issue is raised?


5. What do they do the rest of the day? LOL

Posted by Pinababy

Not Impressed With ECogra

------------------------------------------

Well, it is now almost midday in the UK, and no statement and no action by ECogra. I suppose the next excuse will be that it was the weekend, and no one was available. I addressed that very issue in one of my emails to them.

More disturbing to me is that every link that I sent to them from yesterday on (at their request) are still active, including the one referring to people who are suicidal finding solace in slot machines.

I don't know how the rest of you feel, but my patience is about coming to an end. I really think they have had ample time to deal with this, and come to some sort of conclusion, whatever that may be. I mean, come on, this isn't the US Congress, where every decision made or bill passed has to go through a 100 stages. Neither is it rocket science.

Waiting, watching.....toe tapping.

eCOGRA has a golden opportunity here to show what they are made of...

One way or the other...

 

[Pinababy69]

Tell us how you really feel MrR.....

I gotta say I agree with you 100%. Over the last few months I have noticed posts regarding ECogra that questioned their integrity, and what it is that they actually stand for. I supported them, because I wanted to believe that they were not going to be just another Kahnawake clone. I wanted to believe that they actually gave a shit about the industry as a whole. I wanted to believe they could make things better for everyone, casinos and players alike.

I agreed with them on the Bella Vegas decision, I wasn't sure about the site scraping issue and I hadn't really formed a decision as yet in regards to them advertising gaming portals on their website. But this issue with Jackpot Factory? NO GREY AREA HERE...this is a black and white case. As Simmo mentioned in one of his posts, this is the one issue that has everyone here at CM in total agreement. I am not sure if this has ever happened before. That's how cut and dried this is.

What could possibly take three days to come to a decision? And even more disturbing is that THOSE LINKS ARE STILL ACTIVE. Even after I have drawn attention to them. And my emails have been acknowledged, so they are fully aware of them. This can only lead to one conclusion. In their minds, this issue is not serious enough to warrant immediate action.

The casino should have spent whatever it took, and had all necessary employees available 24/7 to deal with this. And ECogra should have seen to this, whatever it took.

The casino has failed miserably. ECogra has failed miserably. The online gaming industry has taken a step backward IMO.

Should ECogra fail to issue some sort of statement by end of business day, they are sadly no better than Kahnawake, and any faith I had in them to change things is gone.

 

[unicorn40]

eCOGRA has a golden opportunity here to show what they are made of...

One way or the other...

I think they are showing that at the moment.They should have done something by now or said something...They're real quiet.....and what Jackpot Factory did was just sickening.

 

[Simmo!]

eCOGRA has a golden opportunity here to show what they are made of...

I agree. Will be interesting.

 

[texas hooters]

WOW I need to get out more ! I had no idea this was going on. Another group bites the dust for me. Sheesh I am running out of places to play !

 

[GrandMaster]

I think they are showing that at the moment.They should have done something by now or said something...They're real quiet.....and what Jackpot Factory did was just sickening.

They are busy reviewing the situation and undoubtedly hoping that it will just blow over.

 

[spearmaster]

They are busy reviewing the situation and undoubtedly hoping that it will just blow over.

I don't think they are hoping it will just blow over - this is too serious a situation for it to go away just like that.

I would like to see a quick response too - but one must also understand that they cannot afford to take a misstep at all under the circumstances - better to get it right the first time than to do the knee-jerk and inadvertently say something wrong or take the wrong action.

 

[Slotster!]

I agree Spear, they should definitely make the correct and considered response.

That said, this issue was posted originally on 30th May 2006, 03:45 AM (UK Time) and, were my 'seal of approval' on their website, I would've made a statement by now - even just to reassure the public at large we were 'dealing with it'.

With silence, people will always fear the worst/draw their own conclusions.

 

[mrracetrack]

???

Posted by Spear:

I would like to see a quick response too - but one must also understand that they cannot afford to take a misstep at all under the circumstances - better to get it right the first time than to do the knee-jerk and inadvertently say something wrong or take the wrong action.

Spear... do you really think that eCOGRA has any option other than condemning ALLSLOTS & JACKPOT FACTORY after the way that they have dealt with this?

eCOGRA will lose any and all credibility they might have at this point, should they not "do the right thing" and cancel the seal, and condemn this group for the ridiculous and sleazy marketing of their casinos that they attempted to get away with.

JackPot Factory obviously knew what they were doing. If they "really" were that stupid and claim to deny knowing all about this sleazy marketing of their casinos... then they would deserve to be booted from eCOGRA for being "just incredibly clueless".

Why would eCOGRA want to give a seal to morons?

 

[Webzcas]

eCOGRA will lose any and all credibility they might have at this point, should they not "do the right thing" and cancel the seal

This is exactly what I have told Andrew in both my emails to him concerning this. I am like you all awaiting their public response which I hope will be this afternoon.

 

[jetset]

I doubt whether it will be this afternoon, and in any case I am with Spear here - better a cooly considered and legal reaction than a rushed and possibly botched effort which would be welcomed only by the organisation's opponents.

This is not a webmaster arbitrarily calling the shots as is his or her absolute right on their own property, but a legally constituted and internationally active company in a position of authority over another company and considering a possibly punitive action that may have serious legal and business consequences.

I have just called Andrew, who btw has been trying to deal with this and board meetings in addition to his normal job and leading a tough training session on (ironically) Responsible Gaming.

Believe me, he is well aware of the situation and is monitoring it closely, at the same time taking the procedural steps that are required in terms of eCOGRA constitutional and legal advice.

Apparently the immediate and arbitrary pulling of a seal is not quite as simple and straightforward as posting "just take their seal". Seals can be revoked, no question - but the lawyers say that procedures and justice must be properly served.

In a justifiably superheated atmosphere such as this, an instant reaction would be more to the liking of everyone. I share the views expressed by many here regarding JF's debacle and the fact that it has still not pulled down all of this contentious rubbish.

But eCOGRA does not have the luxury of the individual in simply joining in the general clamour before it has its ducks in a row.

I am informed that the proper legal procedures that need to be followed in these circumstances where a withdrawal or suspension of the eCOGRA seal is contemplated, have to follow the legal procedures of English Law (where eCOGRA is based) and the principles of *natural justice* (because it is applied to companies not necessarily falling under English jurisprudence).

The following must take place before a seal can be withdrawn:

(i) the eGAP rules are clear and unambiguous;

(ii) a person or entity is given a chance to rectify any shortcomings or non-compliance;

(iii) the natural justice rules are followed in relation to disciplinary proceedings; and

(iv) the eGAP and natural justice rules are consistently applied on a
case to case basis.

The three cardinal rules of natural justice are:

1. A person or entity has the right to know the case against him. This typically requires:

. adequate notice of the allegations
. adequate notice of the hearing
. adequate notice of the procedure for determining the alleged breach(es)

2. A person or entity must have a fair opportunity to answer the charges and
present his own case.

3. A person has the right to a decision from an unbiased decision-maker.

eCOGRA may well make a statement, but it is unlikely that this will happen until Andrew and the independent directors are satisfied that the legal requirements of starting the process have been complied with.

I can understand anger and disgust at this issue making posters impatient, and I can understand some of eCOGRA's critics trying to make the most of it but is an immediate statement really critical here, and should eCOGRA be discredited because it hasn't burst into print yet?

Andrew has assured me that things are happening, assisted by those of you who have been sufficiently committed to the issue to communicate with Andrew and send him examples of the offensive material.

There's no way this thread or the main one elsewhere here will be allowed by any of us to fade away, so why not give eCOGRA the space to do things properly?

 

[Pinababy69]

Jetset, thank you for posting that. In a roundabout way, it sounds like a statement from ECogra. At the very least, it explains their procedures to those of us not familiar with them.

I'm willing to give them time to do what they have to do. What I'm NOT willing to do is ever let this issue die until it has been resolved one way or another, and until every single one of those offending links is removed.

 

[jetset]

Please do not get me wrong, Pina. This is NOT an official eCOGRA statement, nor am I an eCOGRA spokesman.

My intention in posting the fruits of a long conversation with Andrew this afternoon is purely to inform the members of this board on matters of fact and perhaps explain why instant gratification is not always possible no matter how desirable that may be in some cases.

This issue is definitely receiving attention, as I am sure will become apparent when eCOGRA decides it is time to make it's official comment.

 

[Pinababy69]

Please do not get me wrong, Pina. This is NOT an official eCOGRA statement, nor am I an eCOGRA spokesman.

My intention in posting the fruits of a long conversation with Andrew this afternoon is purely to inform the members of this board on matters of fact and perhaps explain why instant gratification is not always possible no matter how desirable that may be in some cases.

This issue is definitely receiving attention, as I am sure will become apparent when eCOGRA decides it is time to make it's official comment.

I didn't mean to imply that you were Jet. I only meant that it gave us some insight into the inner workings of the organization, and given your conversation with him, some assurance that this is being looked after. Nothing more, sorry for the wrong use of wording. This is really getting to me in case you can't tell.

 

[jetset]

No problem, as long as my point is clear.

I am as angry as you are at this nonsense because it casts the industry in such a bad light as well as targeting totally inappropriate and vulnerable audiences.

And I certainly join you in having no intention of letting the issue die a quiet death.

But I continue to support what eCOGRA is trying to do, and it is important for members to realise that we're not talking here about an anonymous individual with a personal opinion, or a webmaster on his or her own turf; eCOGRA has to act in terms of its constitution and legal advice.

It is not fair or sensible at this stage to discredit or decry the organisation for doing so.

 

[spearmaster]

Spear... do you really think that eCOGRA has any option other than condemning ALLSLOTS & JACKPOT FACTORY after the way that they have dealt with this?

To be perfectly frank - no. But there is still a procedure they have to go through as Jetset has illustrated above and like it or not, we have to respect those procedures.

eCOGRA will lose any and all credibility they might have at this point, should they not "do the right thing" and cancel the seal, and condemn this group for the ridiculous and sleazy marketing of their casinos that they attempted to get away with.

I'll reserve judgement until they make their stance known. But if Jackpot Factory thinks they can get away with a slap on the wrist, they have another think coming.

 

[nielsenj]

Let us give eCOGRA time of make the right decision with regards to Jackpot Factory. To expect a decision in the Jackpot Factory case in only three days is unfair and unrealistic. eCOGRA has procedures to follow (thanks for outlining them, Jetset) and it would surprise me if we are not talking weeks rather than days until we get a responce from eCOGRA. Honestly, I do not care if it takes weeks or days as long as the right decision is made.

As far a I know this can be the first time eCOGRA removes a seal. Just as a court that is about to make a decision on new legislation, a decision from eCOGRA with regards to stripping the seal from Jackpot Factory will have consequenses not only in this case but also for similar cases in the future. It is therefore wise for eCOGRA to think the case through before they make a decision.

I am as just as appalled as the rest of you with what it have read in the Jackpot Factory thread. eCOGRA approved casinos are supposed to make honest advertising and behave responsibly. It is hard to see hard this standard being upheld at Jackpot Factory and is is hard to see how eCOGRA can justify Jackpot Factory an approved casino.

 

[GrandMaster]

To be perfectly frank - no. But there is still a procedure they have to go through as Jetset has illustrated above and like it or not, we have to respect those procedures.

I'll reserve judgement until they make their stance known. But if Jackpot Factory thinks they can get away with a slap on the wrist, they have another think coming.

I agree that proper procedure has to be followed, but if the police have evidence that you have committed a crime, you can be arrested and held in custody until the trial, or a probably better analogue is that if you are suspected of misconduct at work, the normal procedure in the UK is that you are suspended on full pay while the investigation is carried out. I don't understand why ecogra could not suspend Jackpot Factory casinos pending a full investigation.

 

[spearmaster]

I agree that proper procedure has to be followed, but if the police have evidence that you have committed a crime, you can be arrested and held in custody until the trial, or a probably better analogue is that if you are suspected of misconduct at work, the normal procedure in the UK is that you are suspended on full pay while the investigation is carried out. I don't understand why ecogra could not suspend Jackpot Factory casinos pending a full investigation.

Point taken. And I would agree that the evidence is, to say the least, overwhelming... but Andrew still has a board to answer to so he may not be empowered to even suspend without a vote being called first, and that would likely require at least a conference call when all of them can be present.

 

[soflat]

To me eCogra is an irrelevant entity.

Casino Meister rogued them and that is good enough for me.

 

[Scooter7]

This issue affects more than just one bad apple

If, after the dust clears, it's proven that a casino operator can get away with unscrupulous behaviour, then the anti-online gaming crowd will have some serious ammunition to fire at the whole industry...not just the unethical operators.

If, on the other hand, a strong, enforceable ruling that makes an example of poor behaviour is delivered, then the pro-online gaming supporters will have an important victory. It will prove that the industry is pursuing an aggressive self-regulating reputation and that further regulation will lead to a strong, ethical, and trustworthy industry.

I think this story, if properly spread to the mainstream media, can have a huge negative or positive impact on good and bad operators alike depending on how the issue is resolved.


Comments?

 

[GrandMaster]

Point taken. And I would agree that the evidence is, to say the least, overwhelming... but Andrew still has a board to answer to so he may not be empowered to even suspend without a vote being called first, and that would likely require at least a conference call when all of them can be present.

There is also e-mail. Even if a conference call is necessary, it is hard to believe that the have not had time to have one in 4 days. Remember, this is a major scandal. If they are all so busy with other things, then maybe they should not be directors of ecogra. If compliance with English law is so cumbersome, they could have specified that disputes will be settled under Costa Rican law or Saudi Arabian law or whatever.

Frank Catania was Director of New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement. If a casino in Atlantic City had displayed a billboard claiming that gambling cures depression, would he have asked the casino to take it down immediately, or would he have filed a lawsuit for lawyers and expert witnesses to argue the benefits of gambling in treating depression, and wait for the outcome months or years later? Regulatory agencies, which ecogra claims to be, have to act quickly sometimes. Then there may be an appeal, probably through the regulatory agency's internal procedures first and then to the courts.

I did not expect ecogra to make a final decision in four days, but I expected them to do something visible, and to keep us informed.

 

[unicorn40]

I did not expect ecogra to make a final decision in four days, but I expected them to do something visible, and to keep us informed

Exactly GrandMaster.......and links people are still finding is just so sick.......What the hell was this place thinking? This is disgusting that a casino would post this crap and after all of this, STILL have posts there.....

 

[jetset]

If, after the dust clears, it's proven that a casino operator can get away with unscrupulous behaviour, then the anti-online gaming crowd will have some serious ammunition to fire at the whole industry...not just the unethical operators.

If, on the other hand, a strong, enforceable ruling that makes an example of poor behaviour is delivered, then the pro-online gaming supporters will have an important victory. It will prove that the industry is pursuing an aggressive self-regulating reputation and that further regulation will lead to a strong, ethical, and trustworthy industry.

I think this story, if properly spread to the mainstream media, can have a huge negative or positive impact on good and bad operators alike depending on how the issue is resolved.


Comments?

I think this is one of the most rational and even-handed posts in this thread so far, Scooter.

I agree this incident portrays conduct that on the face of it is so unethical and downright stupid that it could be tremendously damaging to the industry as a whole if taken up by the mainstream media, despite the fact that it has been perpetrated by a single group. The very nature of the targets would ensure notoriety imo.

Those who want to see a better industry must hope that eCOGRA defends its standards by taking considered, appropriate and fair action.

 

[mitch]

I will refer only to the eCOGRA issue here.

Much as I would like them to come out and declare and confirm what scum this group is, they have to be careful.

They could be open to serious legal action by this group if they :-

1. Get it wrong. (not likely!)

2. Reach and declare judgement without demonstrable consideration, which obviously includes giving the group time and opportunity to respond to all allegations. ( I know members are anxious to proceed to the execution but the knitting will have to wait for a while!)

Mitch