Ecogra Endorses Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
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Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
Bryan, I know the people at ecogra are your good friends and this is your forum. So I'll shut up now before I get thumped.

Well, I'll do this because no one else has:

@lots0: The implication of your statement is that there is something less than honest about our handling of eCOGRA, presumably because we are 'friends'. You further imply that you'll get 'thumped' for treading on eCOGRA's toes because of that special 'friend' relationship. Total rubbish on both counts, but it's very easy to make innuendos and hint at secret collusion isn't it? I challenge you to produce any evidence whatsoever for your nasty little accusations.

And for what it's worth, if you do get 'thumped' it will be for posting unfounded crap like this, not because Bryan has coffee with the eCOGRA peeps once or twice a year.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
Well, I'll do this because no one else has:

@lots0: The implication of your statement is that there is something less than honest about our handling of eCOGRA, presumably because we are 'friends'. You further imply that you'll get 'thumped' for treading on eCOGRA's toes because of that special 'friend' relationship. Total rubbish on both counts, but it's very easy to make innuendos and hint at secret collusion isn't it? I challenge you to produce any evidence whatsoever for your nasty little accusations.

And for what it's worth, if you do get 'thumped' it will be for posting unfounded crap like this, not because Bryan has coffee with the eCOGRA peeps once or twice a year.
Your way out of line max...

There was a legitimate question there, no matter if you like the question or not. Bryan let everyone know what he considers his relationship with ecogra to be in his last post. I have no reason not to believe him. But I do think that your down playing the relationship a bit much... Wasn't it Tex that helped to get Bryan started in this business?

As far as the getting "thumped" statement, I was referring the the last time I got a "time out" here(thumped) it was because of my opinion/statements on ecogra.

Now max would you mind if we get back to the subject?


********
Two things I would like to address.

1. The idea that Fines and penalties were paid by Absolute Poker for getting caught cheating.

First.. Who leveled the fines in the first place? Wasn't it Joe Tokwiro Norton Chief of the Kahnawke Tribe(at the time)?
Who paid the fines... wasn't it Joe Tokwiro Norton, the owner of Absolute Poker?

So Joe Tokwiro Norton, sole owner of Tokwiro Enterprises and Chief of the Kahnawke Indian Tribe, actually fined himself and then paid the fines to himself by moving the money from one pocket to another...

He must have really learned his lesson...

2. I keep hearing this idea that because Absolute Poker is now being 'watched' they would not dare to cheat... Hogwash.

If that logic were correct then there never would have been a cheating scandal at Ultimate Bet, right after the same people got caught cheating at Absolute Poker.

After all they are both owned and ran by the same people. Weren't they being closely watched right after they were caught cheating at Absolute Poker??? Yet they still went ahead and stole millions at Ultimate Bet...

We are talking about the same people who would not cheat because they are being so closely watched now... Hogwash. These people are daring someone to catch them...

***

What I say here, is not going to make any difference to ecogra, they have already made their decision to support these thieves and others have decided to back them...
But I just wanted this on the record, so it didn't look like the entire industry is going along with this and even though some time has passed... some of us have not forgotten what really took place and that justice has NEVER been served up to the players, the public or the cheaters.

And to be honest there are only two reasons I can think of why ecogra would get involved with Absolute Poker at all...
1. A major BrainFart in ecogras management and now they can't think straight.
2. A lot of money.
 
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maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
There was a legitimate question there, no matter if you like the question or not.

Rubbish, in the context of my point regarding the tone of your post I could care less about the question. What I do care about is us and the site being slagged with your unfounded accusations and innuendo. I should think my post makes that very clear. Please don't deflect this off into your "Casinomeister kiss kiss eCOGRA" theory.

Wasn't it Tex that helped to get Bryan started in this business?

Casinomeister pre-dates eCOGRA by several years. Again you are misinformed and are drawing unfounded conclusions.

I was referring the the last time I got a "time out" here(thumped) it was because of my opinion/statements on ecogra.

I suggest you go back and look at the record. I highly doubt the last action against you was for any such reasons because that's not the why or the way we do things here. I suspect you saw the same "plot" there as you see here. At the risk of belaboring the point ... wrong then, wrong now.

Now max would you mind if we get back to the subject?

Watch it. I made it very clear what my point was and why I was bringing it up. Treating it dismissively is not recommended.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
Your not going to bully me max.

You can kick me out of here... but I am not going to let you bully me.

I am dismissive of your 'charges' because they are bogus and seem to me to be designed to side rail and end this conversation about ecogra and absolute poker.... and your comments do seem to be doing a great job of side railing the discussion.

Casinomeister pre-dates eCOGRA by several years. Again you are misinformed and are drawing unfounded conclusions.
So Tex didn't exist before ecogra? Your saying that Bryan did not know Tex before ecogra and had no contact with her at all before ecogra???? I think your the one that needs to get your facts straight.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Honestly lots0. You came on the thread and intimated that Bryan and eCOGRA were friends and that was the reason for Bryan's comments. You can't expect everyone connected here to go "oh yeah, of course".

We're moderators here because we agree with Bryan's stance on things, convinced he works ethically and want to help so I think Max has every right to stand up to those comments.

On topic: are we 100% sure that the original perpetrators/beneficiaries of the crime are still involved in the operation? That seems to me to be the main issue here and I've heard conflicting reports. Does anyone have conclusive proof one way of the other? Speaking personally that's a key factor for me: if they are, then I'd question whether the eCOGRA involvement is the right course of action. If they aren't, then it makes sense.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
Honestly lots0. You came on the thread and intimated that Bryan and eCOGRA were friends and that was the reason for Bryan's comments. You can't expect everyone connected here to go "oh yeah, of course".
OK, I did say that Tex and Bryan were "good friends", my bad. I should have left off the 'good' part. I was trying to make the point that the relationship between the two people was more than just ecogra/casinomeister. If Bryan says the relationship is just business, I stand corrected.

back on topic...

are we 100% sure that the original perpetrators/beneficiaries of the crime are still involved in the operation? That seems to me to be the main issue here and I've heard conflicting reports. Does anyone have conclusive proof one way of the other? Speaking personally that's a key factor for me: if they are, then I'd question whether the eCOGRA involvement is the right course of action. If they aren't, then it makes sense.
Not a 100%. I have unsubstantiated reports about Scott Tom working in Ap's Costa Rica offices, they may be unsubstantiated but I personally trust the source.

Besides... who owns Absolute Poker... Isn't it still Joe Norton with a new company?
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
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Location
England
Not a 100%. I have unsubstantiated reports about Scott Tom working in Ap's Costa Rica offices, they may be unsubstantiated but I personally trust the source.

Besides... who owns Absolute Poker... Isn't it still Joe Norton with a new company?

Pass. I guess until those points are established it's hard to make a decision on the rights and wrongs of this PR.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
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Hell on Earth
From where I stand, ecogra should be demanding that AP come clean and allow an independent investigation to take place and the results be published.

But what I see is ecogra...actually promoting Absolute Poker, by becoming involved and allowing AP to publicize their connection to ecogra, while helping the guilty to get away with theft by ignoring past events.

If ecogra demanded AP come clean, we would know for sure if those involved are still there... but that won't happen now will it?
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
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Location
Bierland
lots0 said:
Your saying that Bryan did not know Tex before ecogra and had no contact with her at all before ecogra???? I think your the one that needs to get your facts straight.
Eh? Where in the heck did this come from? :what:

If you want to know how Casinomeister got started, please refer to the FAQ:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/forum-rules/

Casinomeister was established in June 1998 and predates most everything that is related to this business - to include eCOGRA.

One of portals that started around the same time was Gambling.com. Gambling.com had employed Julie Sidwell who handled Gambling Grumbles - a place where players could complain. GG was really the only place that dealt with player complaints, but at Casinomeister - we had a message board. People naturally complained a lot, and in order to get this organized, I came up with the Pitch a Bitch section in July 2001. Before then I would merely forward the complaint and hope for some action. I was contacting casinos in 1998.

In April 2003, eCOGRA was launched. Julie left Gambling.com in July of that year and was hired as eCOGRA's Fair Gaming Advocate. Sadly, she passed away suddenly in December that year - she was a good friend. And it wasn't until April 2004 that Tex Rees was hired as the FGA. I didn't meet Tex until months later.

So Casinomeister was established nearly five years before eCOGRA and almost six years before Tex was on the scene. Max had this right since he probably has some of the same early memories. Max worked for Winneronline - another portal that I was friends with. These were the early days. :D

All of this, by the way, is documented in our news section. You just have to dig :D
https://www.casinomeister.com/gambling-news/

Now back to our regular programing...PLEASE don't make me have to split this thread - pretty please...:p
[/derail]
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
From where I stand, ecogra should be demanding that AP come clean and allow an independent investigation to take place and the results be published.

But what I see is ecogra...actually promoting Absolute Poker, by becoming involved and allowing AP to publicize their connection to ecogra, while helping the guilty to get away with theft by ignoring past events.

If ecogra demanded AP come clean, we would know for sure if those involved are still there... but that won't happen now will it?
Try not to be so negative! - it's not good for your health. :D

Onward - it's tough when one tries to do good for what one thinks is good for the player. What do we want? A safe environment for joe player? Do we want lists of warnings and punishments? Do we want to give companies second chances or room to improve? It's tough.

I can relate back a few years ago when I agreed with Virtual Casino to accept and try to resolve complaints that came via them. I had them place a link on their sites for the complaint form, and it seemed like a good thing because I was really trying to help these folks get it together, and of course giving the players assistance when or if they needed it.

Hell, I was crucified by quite a number of people, some of whom are members here, and it was frustrating to say the least. I had done nearly the same thing for Warren Cloud and his Crystal Palace group - trying to give someone a chance and hoping for a safer playing field. Again - I was personally lambasted by quite a few players - they didn't understnad what I was trying to do.

But my situation was much simpler - it was me going at this alone. Here we have eCOGRA which answers to a board of directors and who may or may not understand or see the same thing that you or I do. Their decision making processes are a bit more complicated even though we have basically the same long term goal.

I believe they are trying to do the right thing - they are scrutinizing a poker room that had been embraced with scandal. This should be a good thing if you can look beyond the "endorsement" debate. :D
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Tokwiro Enterprises was founded by Joe Tokwiro Norton, an ex Grand Chief of the Kahnawake, in 2006 and in October purchased Absolute Poker and UltimateBet from Canadian company Excapsa Software.

Prior to that Norton had been Grand Chief until his retirement in 2004, after which he ran Mohawk Internet Technologies for the two years leading up to his Tokwiro Enterprises venture.

AFAIK, Tokwiro's ownership of AB/UB and more recently Cereus has not changed.

The final report from the Kahnawake Gaming Commission unequivocally named Russ Hamilton for cheating which it claimed took place between 2004 and early 2008.

Earlier, the company had claimed that the cheating had been perpetrated by former employees of the previous owner (Excapsa) who exploited a software flaw. These individuals were not named but apparently acted as consultants to Tokwiro following the acquisition of the poker rooms.

Not sure who the KGC board was in 2008 when the fines and player compensation rulings were made (I'm following up on that at present) but the Commission is currently comprised: Dean Montour (Chairperson), Melanie Mayo, and Lori Jacobs.

The full, and final report of the KGC on this can be read here:
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and Catania's appointment here:
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Other communications by the Commission can be viewed here:
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BTW the allegation earlier that Tex Rees helped set Bryan and Casinomeister up would be laughable were it not so outrageously wrong and perhaps even malicious - where the hell did that come from, Lots0? I've known Bryan since the early days of Casinomeister and I can vouch for the fact that Tex Rees was not known or around at that time.
 
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jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Try not to be so negative! - it's not good for your health. :D

Onward - it's tough when one tries to do good for what one thinks is good for the player. What do we want? A safe environment for joe player? Do we want lists of warnings and punishments? Do we want to give companies second chances or room to improve? It's tough.

I can relate back a few years ago when I agreed with Virtual Casino to accept and try to resolve complaints that came via them. I had them place a link on their sites for the complaint form, and it seemed like a good thing because I was really trying to help these folks get it together, and of course giving the players assistance when or if they needed it.

Hell, I was crucified by quite a number of people, some of whom are members here, and it was frustrating to say the least. I had done nearly the same thing for Warren Cloud and his Crystal Palace group - trying to give someone a chance and hoping for a safer playing field. Again - I was personally lambasted by quite a few players - they didn't understnad what I was trying to do.

But my situation was much simpler - it was me going at this alone. Here we have eCOGRA which answers to a board of directors and who may or may not understand or see the same thing that you or I do. Their decision making processes are a bit more complicated even though we have basically the same long term goal.

I believe they are trying to do the right thing - they are scrutinizing a poker room that had been embraced with scandal. This should be a good thing if you can look beyond the "endorsement" debate. :D


Well said - one of the problems encountered by many trying to make a positive difference in the industry is the negative and cynical reception that is so frequently encountered - and unsubstantiated and unsourced whispers and rumours.

That said, rational scepticism is to be expected, given the many and disillusioning scams that have been perpetrated in the past.

But please bear in mind - not everything or everyone is for sale, and there are some genuine folks and outfits trying to better the business.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
Wow I thought this was supposed to be a player advocate forum... not a justification of scumbaggery forum.

This forums history of constant support for ecogra no matter what ecogra does makes me sick and I can't deal with it anymore.

I'm taking my nasty ass out of here... for good.
That should make a few people happy. :thumbsup:
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
I think you should reconsider your decision, Lots0 - when you're not freaking or dishing out suspect info you make some very valued contributions a.f.a.i.c. :notworthy

C'mon, man - this exit is absolutely (no pun intended :D) unnecessary in a debate like this in which there are different opinions to your own.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
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Location
Bierland
Wow I thought this was supposed to be a player advocate forum... not a justification of scumbaggery forum.

This forums history of constant support for ecogra no matter what ecogra does makes me sick and I can't deal with it anymore.

I'm taking my nasty ass out of here... for good.
That should make a few people happy. :thumbsup:
Eh? Are you unable to debate anything without getting upset? This is the umpteenth time you've quit the forum because you don't like what other people say. They have just as much as a right as you do to express their opinions. And opinions should be expressed with a certain amount of objectivity - something that you seem challenged with.

You've already made a couple of glaring misguided/unsupported comments about me and Casinomeister. I gave a rundown on what came first this place or eCOGRA - and this upsets you? :what: C'mon, get a freakin' grip.

We're having a discussion here. We're talking about AP and the eCOGRA involvement - which has nothing to do with Casinomeister by the way. Last time I checked, AP was still in the rogue pit.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Your way out of line max...

There was a legitimate question there, no matter if you like the question or not. Bryan let everyone know what he considers his relationship with ecogra to be in his last post. I have no reason not to believe him. But I do think that your down playing the relationship a bit much... Wasn't it Tex that helped to get Bryan started in this business?

As far as the getting "thumped" statement, I was referring the the last time I got a "time out" here(thumped) it was because of my opinion/statements on ecogra.

Now max would you mind if we get back to the subject?


********
Two things I would like to address.

1. The idea that Fines and penalties were paid by Absolute Poker for getting caught cheating.

First.. Who leveled the fines in the first place? Wasn't it Joe Tokwiro Norton Chief of the Kahnawke Tribe(at the time)?
Who paid the fines... wasn't it Joe Tokwiro Norton, the owner of Absolute Poker?

So Joe Tokwiro Norton, sole owner of Tokwiro Enterprises and Chief of the Kahnawke Indian Tribe, actually fined himself and then paid the fines to himself by moving the money from one pocket to another...

He must have really learned his lesson...

2. I keep hearing this idea that because Absolute Poker is now being 'watched' they would not dare to cheat... Hogwash.

If that logic were correct then there never would have been a cheating scandal at Ultimate Bet, right after the same people got caught cheating at Absolute Poker.

After all they are both owned and ran by the same people. Weren't they being closely watched right after they were caught cheating at Absolute Poker??? Yet they still went ahead and stole millions at Ultimate Bet...

We are talking about the same people who would not cheat because they are being so closely watched now... Hogwash. These people are daring someone to catch them...

***

What I say here, is not going to make any difference to ecogra, they have already made their decision to support these thieves and others have decided to back them...
But I just wanted this on the record, so it didn't look like the entire industry is going along with this and even though some time has passed... some of us have not forgotten what really took place and that justice has NEVER been served up to the players, the public or the cheaters.

And to be honest there are only two reasons I can think of why ecogra would get involved with Absolute Poker at all...
1. A major BrainFart in ecogras management and now they can't think straight.
2. A lot of money.

Just to go back to this for a moment and address Lotso0's allegation that the owner of Tokwiro was on the KGC and that the fines levied were therefore "moving the money from one pocket to the other' as he put it.

This is a serious accusation, and I therefore checked it out with Murray Marshall at the KGC.

Here's his response:
QUOTE

1. That is correct. [this was confirming my understanding of the composition of the KGC board as posted elsewhere in this thread].

2. Joseph Tokwiro Norton has NEVER been a member of the Commission. At the time the fines were imposed, Norton had been retired from his former position of Grand Chief of the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake for at least 4 years.

UNQUOTE
 

Roanan

Banned User - abusive flamming - misogynist
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Location
Langley, BC...in Canada, eh?
As always I was needing a few days to gather my thoughts to express in this thread, so here goes..


I have always played at UltimateBet.

I joined them long before any other site that is still around today.
Prior to that I played at Jet Set and Planet Poker (the very first online card room)
Subsequently I have joined most poker sites since then and they've all had their good and bad points.

Any time I have had an issue with UB. Whether it be abusive chat, potential collusion or chip dumping, multiple accounts, deposit/withdrawal issues, etc. I have always been 100% satisfied with both the results and the time frames involved.


I even remember a time where a personal financial issue had caused me to turn to UB to make an emergency withdrawal of funds that I had in my account.

Not only did they happily assist me with finding a solution, then even took a step beyond what was expected and wired the withdrawal via Western Union THREE HOURS after my initial contact with them. This was at a time when WU was not an available option and the other methods all had a minimum of 2-5 day waiting periods indicated.
AND THEY DIDN'T EVEN CHARGE ME A FEE


The cheating scandal that they have been embroiled in has been completely oversensationalized by the parasitic US media.

Had the site not allowed US players and the principle behind the scam not been a former WSOP Main Event Champion (1994)(
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) this would never have been the story that it was.

The incident happened, everyone knows the details of it now, but the one thing that no one will mention is that the site is known to have very little cheating going on at all.

The game play is one of the fairest anywhere.

The fact of the matter is PartyPoker has had more cheating scandals than every other poker room combined, but because US players aren't permitted, the US media has no reason to care


11-time WSOP bracelet winner and Main Event Champion (1989)
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has been associated with Ultimate Bet since the beginning.

Do you really think 'the best no limit hold 'em player in the world' would be associated with an unscrupulous site?

Not a chance. He would have jumped ship to Full Tilt long ago if that was the case.


So I ask all of you to take the eCogra announcement for what it's worth.
The site has been accredited for a reason.


PLEASE GIVE THEM A(NOTHER) CHANCE and come join
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for a game of cards.
 

johnsteed

Ueber Meister
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Location
N/A
***




I agree with everything that you said - and very much so - except this part...



So I ask all of you to take the eCogra announcement for what it's worth.
The site has been accredited for a reason.



Absolute Poker - if that is the site you're referring to and not eCogra - is not accredited at this site. As it states in the Rogue Pit "Unknown - Kahnawake - Cheating - poker room".



Great post, and I'd like to add that Joe Sebok recently signed-on there as well (with UB), despite taking some heat from the poker community.



On another note, any chance that "PokerStars.com" will be accredited here?




Steed


***
 
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