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eCOGRA - Are they worth the wait?

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by Shaun_h, Nov 16, 2015.

    Nov 16, 2015
  1. Shaun_h

    Shaun_h Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Financial Planner
    Location:
    Shropshire, UK
    Hi

    I have contacted eCOGRA what is now almost 2 weeks ago and as of yet, I am still to receive a response from them, contrary to their email stating I will hear from them within 5 business days.

    Anybody have any positive experiences with eCOGRA or do they just not bother getting back to you?

    Id like to state at this point, my post is neither a positive or negative one and am just trying to gauge how useful this organisation is.

    My sceptical mind says Why would they offer to help when they get nothing out of it? and/or If they do get some benefit from assisting customers of casinos raising a dispute what is it?

    The organisation seems very professional in its presentation but im finding dealing with them a little frustrating as they just have not replied and are not contactable via their website telephone number.

    Maybe an eCOGRA rep could provide a response or somebody who has had experience dealing with said firm.

    Cheers in advance

    :thumbsup:
     
  2. Nov 17, 2015
  3. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Just letting you know that that is highly unlikely. AFAIK they've never posted here, or anywhere else that I know of. If you want a response from them you're going to have to talk directly to them.
     
  4. Nov 17, 2015
  5. Shaun_h

    Shaun_h Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Financial Planner
    Location:
    Shropshire, UK
    Ah I see. No surprise really with their lack of response to my ADR form, thus far.

    Would there be any conflict with PAB if eCOGRA have been instructed?

    I reiterate, I can not contact them on the telephone.

    Nigh swan.
     
  6. Nov 17, 2015
  7. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    If an issue has been submitted to eCOGRA we would put any corresponding PAB on hold pending their decision. If they'd had it a while and not responded we'd be happy to inquire, assuming we had a PAB to work from.
     
  8. Nov 17, 2015
  9. Shaun_h

    Shaun_h Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Financial Planner
    Location:
    Shropshire, UK
    Ah thats fair enough.

    Ill have to await this fabled email/telephone reply.
     
  10. Nov 17, 2015
  11. cncas2123

    cncas2123 Senior Member MM

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Belfast
    ecogra

    My experience with them was very mixed- made a complaint to them in January but they sided with the casino, even though the casino blatantly ignored their own terms, but a few months later I contacted them again to see how I could make a formal complaint about how they handled my case. Within a week they had reopened my case, found in my favour and the casino refunded £4K into my bank account.
    I honestly think that you have to keep emailing for a response and make sure you record everything that tales place with them.
     
    3 people like this.
  12. Nov 17, 2015
  13. Shaun_h

    Shaun_h Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Financial Planner
    Location:
    Shropshire, UK
    Thanks for that cncas2123.

    Whilst its not encouraging to hear your story, nevertheless it offers a small insight into how they operate.

    Ultimately, who would you complain to about eCOGRA? My suspicious mind just asks; "Who would you refer it to if they just ignored you?"

    Im thinking about going to the UKGC aswell as the casino in question has failed on a number of their licensee imposed regulations. I fear that if I involve the UKGC, the casino would be less likely to enter into a dialogue with me about settling the figure I am owed? Or am i barking up the wrong tree here?
     
  14. Mar 8, 2016
  15. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Senior Member CAG PABnononaccred mm4

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    West Sussex
    ^^^^ I hope that you managed to get everything settled ?
    I too have attempted to garner an interaction with eCOGRA. The trouble that I have is that their list of casino's of which they have an agreement to mediate with does not include the casino who claim I should take my issue too about them. eCOGRA state that they will not even respond to questions relating to any casino who are not on their list. In the absence of a responsee from eCOGRA should I report to the gambling commission? I wish to highlight a number of issues about this casino,but I have gave them time to address a few issues before taking further steps.
    Any advice folks ?
     
  16. Sep 19, 2016
  17. kalvinnorth

    kalvinnorth New Member

    Location:
    kilmarnock
    eCORGA

    I won £325 on bgo whilst un knowingly breaching there terms and conditions and the withdrawal was accepted so I put more money on then when I won £2980 by breaching the same term the cancelled my withdrawal. the term was that you can place more than £10 bonus money on one spin but no barrier in place now anyway my dispute with eCORGA isnt going well because apparently bgo send me out a warning on the first withdrawal that I never received so eCORGA finalised the dispute in favour of bgo on the reason that they sent me a warning. no warning was ever given though so now I have asked for evidence but no reply? what can I do to get eCORGA to view my case properly as I feel as if I'm in the right as there is no barrier to stop you placing more than £10 per spin and they let me withdraw small amount but then declined when I won't £2980 so surely the dispute should go in my favour as it states in the terms and condition all winning made from over £10 bonus on one spin money WILL be void. but wasn't the first time and no barrier. so my question is can eCORGA find the case in bgo's favour on the ground they gave a warning without providing me evidence on such thing?
     
  18. Sep 20, 2016
  19. Shaun_h

    Shaun_h Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Financial Planner
    Location:
    Shropshire, UK
    Well I for one think its a waste of time as I put my dispute in wit them on 21st October 2015 and have only had one reply from 'Tex' on the 19th November 2015 saying he will contact the customer services dept at the casino concerned.

    I have sent numerous chasers to get an update but nobody gets back to me. I am simply being ignored.

    As I understand it, I can not PAB if I have an open dispute with eCogra :(
     
  20. Sep 20, 2016
  21. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    In general that's true because it would mean that both of us were messing about with the same dispute and that creates moving targets which is a PITA for anyone's dispute resolution process.

    However, a year is a ridiculously long time to be waiting for results without some indication of where things are at. I'd say PAB and we'll contact eCOGRA to see what's happening.
     
  22. Sep 20, 2016
  23. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    If you are not satisfied with eCogra's determination, or the grounds they used (casino gave warning, but none was received), you can take the matter to the small claims court.

    However, it's worth considering that strictly speaking, there is no obligation for them to give a warning for a first breach, the legal obligation is for them to adhere to the laws that govern consumer contracts, and you would have to argue that the contract, and the way it was policed, breaches these consumer laws. The court will assume and expect you to have at least read the terms, so you would have to demonstrate that the terms as written were unclear for the target market (ordinary consumers, not trained lawyers), or were "unfair" to the consumer.

    The fact that these new regulations make it much easier for UK players to take disputes to court is perhaps not something casinos are used to, neither are they used to the idea of properly proof reading terms before they are uploaded to their websites, let alone redesigning them to ensure compliance with UK consumer contract laws.

    An increasing number of UK casinos are finally getting the message that they need to use software to block the acceptance of invalid bets, rather than accepting the bet and relying on the player to know whether or not it's valid. In a land setting, such as a betting shop, if a bet is accepted by the clerk, that's it - binding on both parties. The bookie's clerk is expected to refuse bets that are against company policy, and if they fail, the bookie can't then have the bet voided if it wins. The same argument would apply to bet accepting websites, the software is really an automated bookie's clerk, and should not accept invalid bets.

    For many years, we have been told it's "impossible" or "impractical" for enforcement of max bet to be built into the software, then along comes the UKGC, and them reminding operators that consumer contract laws apply to them, and all of a sudden platform providers are falling over themselves to implement the "impossible" or "impractical". It may be that they have considered the above argument being used against them in court by savvy UK players, and have decided to act before it becomes a problem.
     
  24. Sep 20, 2016
  25. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Casinos make money off of player mistakes. Not restricting bets that violate the Terms is a win-win situation for the casino -- bank the money if they lose, disqualify the bet (s) when they win -- and they would be VERY unlikely to impose those restrictions on themselves until there was a real and tangible downside for failing to do so. If it's the UKGC that has provided the pressure required to force that change then I say good on the UKGC. :thumbsup:

    On the other hand anything that increases software complexity is going to increase casino costs. You can bet that they'll be passing that increased overhead on to the players one way or the other.

    The large print giveth and the small print taketh away.
     
  26. Sep 20, 2016
  27. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    They have already been hauled up by the ASA over some of the misleading advertising they pump out to entice new players to sign up and deposit, so they are having to be more honest with their offers, and of course having to reveal the truth costs them money because the "too good to be true" offers of the past can no longer be advertised (unless they really are being that generous).

    Companies often act on what they perceive might happen if consumers decided to really kick up a fuss and insist on being given their legal rights. This often means that they will try to avoid being taken to court by negotiating with a player that was previously being told "talk to the hand".

    In this case, whilst eCogra may have come up with a fair determination in their view, the process itself is open to challenge because they are using a "fact" given to them by the casino that is disputed by the player as justification for their decision. eCogra should really know better and realise that online casinos are one of the biggest users of spam, hence it's highly likely that a warning they send by email will get blocked en route as spam and not be received by the player. Would they have made the same determination had the casino not sent a warning after the first time?

    Where things differ in court is that the principle of the consumer "being treated fairly" is coded into the law, and this can overrule certain terms and conditions in a consumer contract where the court believes they result in unfair treatment for the consumer. It can also count against the business if they do not police the contract consistently and fairly, so if they pay the first time and the player is given no clue that there was a problem with their play, it is reasonable for the player to assume they have done nothing wrong and thus carry on playing the same way.
     
  28. Sep 22, 2016
  29. Shaun_h

    Shaun_h Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Financial Planner
    Location:
    Shropshire, UK
    Ah thats really helpful Max. Thanks very much for letting me know.

    I will endeavor to PAB over the next few days. :)
     

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