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Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by happygobrokey, May 29, 2007.

    May 29, 2007
  1. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    now here's a monumental idea: can we players draft and adopt our OWN t&c for us as players, sort of a manifesto for ethical player treatment standards? i don't want to liken it to milestones like the magna carta, tennis court oath, and un declaration of human rights (and the ten commandments if you believe in them), but i think we could make a good declaration to the casinos that we are not just an asset that can be treated like dirt. we would include many of the casinomeister ideals of a fair casino of course.

    first we declare that we will not manipulate their t&c's and we agree to get clarification about any grey areas before we play. we declare also that a player presenting this to a casino vows to play within the rules and not abuse a bonus or do a charge-back. we declare that we will take a screenshot record of the casino t&c at the time of deposit/bonus claim, and we expect to be held to those terms under which we accept the offer or have a sufficient notice (of perhaps a week) before a term is added, amended or discontinued - giving us due time to complete the offers under the terms we signed up for. we declare that we will play in any manner which we may think is a winning strategy to us, and the casino must specifically disclose their prohibition of any kinds of bets that are not allowed under bonuses.

    we demand that the casino deal a fair game and allow us to play as we please (within any rules applied by the casino under general and bonus t&c) until such time as the casino may wish to deny us further promotions or casino access altogether, but any offers previously undertaken and any cashouts are still to be honoured. we demand a way to verify our own wagering easily (easiest and friendliest being comp/loyalty points per $ wagered, others being a tab in cashier with bonus satisfaction requirements, or a segregated bonus and cash account visible to the player) without having to depend on live chat to know how much we've played. we demand live chat or a guarantee of fewer than 24-48 hours for email support responses which are not "canned", as well as supervisor/manager/accounting contacts to be made available upon request. we require a valid reason for any delay in payment past two weeks from cashout time, and timely updates in that respect until the problem is sorted.

    we recognise we are the bread and butter of casinos, and as such we deserve humane and respectful treatment, depsite the absence of real human interaction. casinos do not want to be on the levels of internet pyramid/sympathy scammers, identity thieves and cyber-bullies. live casinos aim to provide a fun entertaining experience; they give you free stuff and they pay immediately. the perks online are the bonus chips upfront and upon signup, and also the immediate and 24/7 availability within one's home. casinos currently have anonymity on their side and like a public company in which the investors demand to know the quality and value of their stocks, the casino should aim for transparency in its practices and provide a comfortable and safe environment in which to play and where wins are worth real cash everytime and anytime one wishes to cash them in (apart from where playthrough is still tied to amounts). furthermore, as players we are all equals, and a nation of origin or language preference or sex or any other factor (provided player is of legal age of course) should not be counted against us or deprive us of anything to which the average person or to one similar in all other respects than an ascribed trait such as above is availed of.

    i know the accredited list members will fulfill many if not all of these sort of player stipulations, but i also know there are quite a few perfectly honourable casinos that might have everything short of a rep here and a personal rapport with bryan away from being on here. and with a uniform agreement of what the player expects, the player gets a hard copy that the casino agrees to and that the player can enforce. i am not trying to usurp the meister here; as i understand his true occupation is as a mediator and gambling awareness advocate, not as a casino evaluator or promoter. with a universally recognised "commitment to respect players" the cm accredited list would lose some of its utility, but i think the ultimate goal of an industry standard seal for fair play would do much more to uphold/encourage the integrity of all casinos and protect players who may not have had the pleasure of discovering meisterland. am i way off in outer space or do i have a good suggestion with this? we can draft up our manifesto easily enough and within a month or two we could get millions of petitioners/boycotters to attempt to force this into use. once the news is way public, casinos will be able to say/show via a seal on the website that they adhere to the players code of rights or whatever it would be called, and the loyal trustworthy term-abiding players will have a universal seal of approval to go by. what are your thoughts? is this sacrilege? impractical? useless to even try?
     
    2 people like this.
  2. May 29, 2007
  3. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Sounds like a reasonable idea to me, although it may be trickier to agree on the "code" than it first appears, especially when it comes to bonuses. If you can overcome that hurdle, then at least you will have something that gives players an outline of what is acceptable, even if the casinos themselves don't respond.

    That said, it may be more useful to newbies than established players - I'd guess many around the forums know what they are looking for already. A big task - but worth getting input from people on the idea first for sure.
     
  4. May 29, 2007
  5. AudiManinBoro

    AudiManinBoro Ueber Meister MM

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    UK
    A very difficult and im sure time consuming task considering the multitude of casinos and terms and conditions that vary from site to site. You would need to initially garner support from several leading brand casinos in order for a scheme such as this to carry any weight with a majority but the idea is certainly sound in principle.
     
  6. May 29, 2007
  7. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Yes the idea is sound but it is a logistical nightmare and I am not even sure the will is there on either side.

    Not so long back I ran a thread that listed the very few Casino's that were to become licensed through the gaming commision in September.

    This license should ensure fair play as it is the only license issued by a fully recognised and respected independent body set up by the UK goverment.

    I invited representives of Casino's to explain why they had or had not applied for this license as this would surely serve their customers in making an informed choice as to where best to play.

    This is the most important news since the advent of remote Casinos and yet
    the silence was deafening but not only from the industry.

    I was amazed at how little the gambling public seemed to care about the fact that come September they would have properly regulated online Casino's.

    Many online Casino's are watching US and waiting to see if WE will keep playing at unregulated sites once WE are given the choice.

    As I say your idea is a good one but IMO even if it were to be put into pratice it would probably be too little too late.

    I know everybody here is extremely grateful for the incredible effort Brian has put into this site as he has been a beacon of light that has shown the way in the stormy waters of internet gambling.
     
  8. May 29, 2007
  9. EasyRhino

    EasyRhino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Analyst
    Location:
    San Diego
    Interesting idea. Almost more of an "armistice", since it would involve the players following T&Cs and getting clarification in advance on gray areas.

    Of course, thsoe players that DO scam the system (multiple accounts, etc) probably would not agree.

    However, the other part is pretty interesting. Sort of a "minimum acceptable standards" for casinos. A lot of good ideas, many seem targeted towards current failings of many RTG casinos (which, well, makes sense). The only one that even might produce some trouble on the technical side would be the playthrough-measurer, because RTG coupons don't have consistent playthrough requirements.
     
  10. May 29, 2007
  11. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    this came to me as a result of the prime casino episode with the nt charge-back. if an accredited casino can up and pull this or something like it (and stand by it no less), then surely anyone can. if the casino was made to agree to a codified standard, then we could go after them and have some recourse and their decision would not always be final and unwavering. once they adopt the code and get the seal, they then agree they won't pull any of the "old tricks" that so often get pulled in the current situation. we would know who really wants to run a good ship. as it stands, casinos are like the feudal lords, arbitrating as they see fit and cm is practically the only mercenary/robin hood that is willing to take on the regime. we need to break free of this serfdom! we need some safe havens who will give us rights, like when slaves took the underground railroad to canada!

    yes i intended us (the honest players) to undertake the burden of understanding the rules and playing within them. once we agree we will do this, the casino then has no choice but to comply with its own rules and be fair like we were fair in entrusting our money there and playing games of chance with that particular establishment. if a player plays fraudulently and a casino discovers it, the player admits he has broken his own t&c and can't go crying anywhere. honest mistakes like pre-wr withdrawals when not allowed, or excluded games played, will be given the benefit of the doubt and the player allowed to play on normally. if after completing the offer or busting out, the casino can determine the above actions were part of an attempt to "abuse" or sidestep the bonus terms, then the casino can refuse allowing further bonuses. casinos should be able to prevent play on certain games and impose bet limits and playthroughs to curtail the abusive types of plays that can cost a casino offering bonuses. and that's their prerogative, but i think casinos owe it to us to give us humanity and rights and a vote in matters concerning our money. a fair shake is all. nothing more. the honour system if you will. we scratch you scratch. trust.
     
  12. May 29, 2007
  13. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This is what eCogra was supposed to be about, but sadly it seems they are too close to the industry, and accept things like "bonus abuse" being a reason to void winnings.
    The casinos already have the house edge, and if they did their sums properly and did not cut corners by hiring the cheapest, rather than the best, staff, they would never be hit so much they have to start voiding winnings.

    A B&M casino only voids winnings if they discover fraud, I can't see one refusing to pay out because someone bet $100,000 on Black, won, and walked out the door (they would probably send someone after them to offer a free room).
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. May 29, 2007
  15. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    so you don't believe it's impossible, maybe just unrealistic since the ecogra didn't turn out to be as great as it hoped? i still don't know how we'll circulate it first to players to help draft it, and then to casinos to adopt it. but these days, we got myspace and youtube and any idiot can get their face out there. any one person/thing can be the next big star/trend, the world is fully connected from this decade on, like it never was before.
     
  16. May 29, 2007
  17. mikepipe

    mikepipe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    still progressing
    Nice idea. I think, its impractical.
    On the other hand: The accredited list intends exactly the same.
    And to be of any worth, these rules need a forum, which has Bryans reputation (or similar, but there is no similar one).
    Lets make it esier and more consequently: We play on accredited ones only.
    That would be a great chance to show the ugly ones the players power, or what we call "Marktmacht" in german (power of the market?).
     
  18. May 30, 2007
  19. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    but this site does not accredit all (and maybe not even half?) of ths upstanding trustworthy casinos out there. and similarly, only maybe 0.0005% of online gamblers read here, all the others get burned first before finding their way here as a result of that. this is why i would hope for a solution that transcends meisterland. that or meisterland has to expand and become a rite of passage for a player, wherein they commit themselves to only visit the accredited/seal-bearing casinos. just like advertising in the media, all the industry needs is a buzzword or a trend (see trans fat, stem cells, eating disorders) and it catches like wildfire.

    if der meister's list or another form of player agreement entered into by the casinos is made the standard, and if the players know they can trust their ten commandments are upheld and that the casino is fair and decent to play at. rogue casinos and fraudulent/gnoming players will sort themselves out and within five years the industry will be free of the bad operations. they will have starved, and the truly fraudulent players will have been eliminated so casino bonuses can once again flow freely to the trustworthy individuals who will use the bonuses properly and follow the casinos' terms. i think it may be an unattainable utopia, but each day it becomes easier to accomplish such a task, and in light of UIGEA and rogue activity, such action is required now more than ever and increasing as time goes on if casinos are left to their own devices.
     
  20. May 30, 2007
  21. mikepipe

    mikepipe Dormant account

    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    still progressing
    Thanks. You didnt want to read or to understand??
    Or is your english worse than mine?:):):)

    Its impracticable. Please: Use the wonderful option, the accredited list gives us, and concentrate your creative power on making this list what it could be.
    got me?:):):thumbsup:
     
  22. May 30, 2007
  23. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    i'm merely saying, there are perhaps many more casinos than those on the list here, that do meet the criteria for being on, and moreover, there are definitely many many gamblers who do not hang out here. the list works fine for those of us here, but as i said probably over 99.99% of gamblers don't read/post here. for us lucky ones, we have a good aggregation of casinos that will satisfy most of our needs, but i don't think wider publicity for the forum and its ideals is a bad thing. of course we here could make a rough draft and see what it would add to our casino experience. all the accredited casinos could probably adapt to the new players code without changing very much, maybe only timestamping web pages.

    because it's true, there is not much to b&m (not brick&mortar;)) about when it comes to meister-listed joints. i just like the concept of having the casino "sign" and agree to some of OUR terms and so that we do have some sort of a leg to stand on in disputes that may arise. like if there's anything you just wish every casino could get "right", for instance blocking you from even entering a bonus-restricted game (avoiding voiding your winnings). our "bill of rights" could be piggybacked on the accredited casinos to get it out there, and hopefully it would make news and other casinos could hear of it. casinomeister can of course have the brand for it, and basically we will be promoting the forum. for instance, players could be sent here to sign the bill of rights, confirming they agree to its declarations and to play diligently, read and screenie their bonus terms, and expect the fair treatment which is detailed therein.

    yes, WE're safe by sticking to the meister list, but what of all those poor suckers out there getting shafted with no recourse? surely WE are not above them, and they don't deserve it any more than we do. do all the accredited casinos at least display a meister seal of some sort on their site to help advertise this site? i'm not trying to start any revolution, just putting ideas out there for criticism :thumbsup:
     
  24. May 31, 2007
  25. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Brainstorm:thumbsup: I wish you were getting more feedback on this idea.

    Not to complicate, just to brainstorm. What if player were to join in 'classes' we could be sorted by a questionaire. Once 'rated' or classified, we'd agree to play in that class or apply for another status.

    • I use bonuses as often as possible and hardly ever come back win or lose without a bonus.
    • I use bonuses as often as possible and when I find a casino I like I play there with or without future bonuses.
    • SUB don't really interest me, I prefer loyalty rewards and comps.
    • I prefer not to play with a bonus at all and would like the EV to reflect that.

    I'm sure I left out a lot of styles.

    I'm not really missing your point HGB, just brainstorming and expanding, by all means redirect :)

    (here goes lojo into broken record mode again):D

    I'd like to see a casino offer different payout% for different classes of players, sans boni.

    Say if you started out at 85%, and a dime had the same paytable as a dollar, after a certain amount of playthrough the house edge could go down eventually reaching something like 3%. Comps and other incentives could be scattered out amonst the flock.

    Mathmatical or advantage players would have no real use for this system, but if they did use it, they would have to earn their way up to the beatable edge. A gambler playing high varience slots could do quite well.

    Promotions could be done through a new kind of affiliate. If I referred you, and you played through x amount, I could have my edge increased.


    ahhh, never mind, I'm babbling... I'll try to get more inline with your original idea and through some ideas out there later. The cool thing about brainstorming, is there are no bad ideas, just ideas that may not work for the particular concept.


    Storm!!!:thumbsup:
     
  26. May 31, 2007
  27. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    lojo i have heard of something sort of like what you are describing. and maybe it was from 3dice and that's why you got the idea. they have a vip or high roller room carrying games with zero house edge to them. not sure what games could do this and how they would be altered for that to be so. maybe a blackjack would pay 7/4 or 9/5 or even 2/1? obviously it's easy to make vp and slots variants that pay 100% or greater, but for card games not so much so, unless you can find a combination of rules (number of decks, five- or six-card charlie, resplit aces, bonus payout on suited bj's, 777/678 bonuses, etc) to make the card game play at >=100%.

    it is a cool idea, and might be as simple to implement as having these sort of games only available when you have no bonus in your account, or when you deposit more than 500 in one shot, or if you have deposited more than 2k overall, or any such condition. imo i think different classes/ranks of players would be too confusing and require to much fiddling around in the software, but definitely there could be better games for more loyal/affluent players, and which could be restricted from bonus play entirely. and i think the payout and house edge of these games is up to each casino to determine (and of course we'll require in our terms they publish their payouts regularly). i appreciate the input from everyone so far. we're still at the cocktail napkin level right now though, so please feel free to add more to the discussion.
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. May 31, 2007
  29. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Yeah, I'll go back to the original thought and try to storm it up some.

    Maybe 3Dice got that idea from one of my broken record posts, or great minds think alike :D
     
  30. May 31, 2007
  31. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    not sure, and not certain it was them, but hey, s'all good in the hood yizzheard? sorry, snoop dogg was on tv at the hockey game tonight:thumbsup:
     
  32. Jun 1, 2007
  33. Addisyn

    Addisyn Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Underground Sewer Access
    We as players must accept the rules of the casinos. What we do not have to accept is a being treated unfairly. My thought is simple. We only play at those casinos that respect the player.

    It is not a boycott just the player being choosy. Withdrawal time must be a certain amount of time or you don't play there again. I don't care what excuse is given.

    Just as CM accredits casinos we must choose wisely. If we accept crappy customer service, slow withdrawals, and just downright thoughtlessness of the player we deserve nothing more.

    Once players realize they have leverage by simply avoiding those casinos who refuse to do the right thing all of the time I think our message will be taken to heart.
     
  34. Jun 4, 2007
  35. elscrabinda

    elscrabinda Experienced Member PABnorogue PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    jvonsofdmpvs
    Location:
    Oxford
    What attracts me most is casinos where you can play ANY game you like regardless of whether there is a bonus in your account. Of course casinos can and should restrict the games that qualify for filling wagering requirements but its so much more relaxing playing at wagerworks or microgaming (although Prime have spoilt that now, back to poring over terms and conditions with a fine tooth comb checking that we're allowed to play in months without an r in) than at places you know, accredited or not, will jump on any opportunity to void your winnings.

    How on earth are you meant to relax at ANY RTG or Playtech casino when you know that a slight slip of the mouse, a snuck in bonus, or an absent minded roulette spin could cost you all your winnings. I appreciate there are advantages to the player of playing even house edge games in the case of sticky bonuses etc but surely its better to take the one time hit, block them from future bonuses than to terrify your other customers away from receiving any bonuses at all.


    There are very few casinos even on the meister's list where if you find a bonus in your account you shouldn't panic and wonder what silly terms you have to comply with. That shouldn't be what recreational gambling is about, and the excuse so often given that "its in our ts and cs, we're allowed to do what we like" is missing the point entirely.
     
  36. Jun 5, 2007
  37. 3Dice

    3Dice I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -
    Hey guys,

    Just wanted to share my thoughts on this. When some time ago, in the 3Dice thread we had a discussion about SUB versus loyalty, we ran all the nrs and considered all scenario's.

    The commonly used comp and loyalty systems are designed to do an overall decrease of the house edge. Let me explain how that works and how you have to read those terms...

    The house edge is defined as the total pay divided by the total stake. That means that, obviously, on an average, the casino makes the house edge for each time you make a stake. Comp programs also give you points for each time you make a stake. So the house edge substracts a bit from each stake, and the comp program adds a bit back ..

    Now, on to how to figure out what that bit is .. I'll use some common nrs, but feel free to substitute with any set you find. (these are NOT the 3dice numbers.. ours are much better :) )

    Lets assume an overall house edge of 97%. Most comp programs will give you one loyalty point for every $10 wagered. A common exchange ratio would be 100 comp points to get $1 back. Lets do the math :)

    we wager $1000
    house edge substracts $30 (3% of $1000)
    comp points earned : 100
    comp point redeem : $1

    house edge before comp program : ($1000 - $30) / 10 = 97%
    house edge after comp program : ($1000 - $30 + $1) / 10 = 97.1%

    These are nrs you'll find all over and as you can see not really such an interesting deal. Important tho is that the technique is valid for all parties .. it will truly reward loyal players and is abuse-proof.

    We finally decided to use a technique like this (with much better nrs), and to gain back on the 'marketability' of the feature, you can exchange your comp points at twice their value if you claim them as a 20% no WR bonus on a new deposit.

    At the end of the story, regular players can use their comp points to claim 20% bonuses on almost every deposit they make, and there's no fiddling around with WR's or weird conditions afterwards ..

    For as long as the deposit bonuses are handed out the way they are, these dumb t&c's will be required .. and for as long as the casinomanagers change the allowed games every two seconds .. some sw providers will not catch up and implement the stuff needed
    to guide the customer into playing the right games ..

    just my twopence

    grts

    enzo@3Dice
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2007
    1 person likes this.
  38. Jun 5, 2007
  39. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    Betfair have zero house edge games open to all (using the "tricks" you mention to make the payout 100%).
     
    1 person likes this.

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