Does this sound right to you?

[ecopac]

Ok so over the last week or so I've taken a real beasting over at Betsafe on Wizard of Oz Ruby Slippers.

I requested my stats and they look like this:

17,758 wagered and 13,292 returned over 4071 spins. This gives me an RTP of 74.8% on a slot with a TRPT of 95.6% (it's something like that, give or take a .%).

I obviously feel pi**ed off about this, but am I right to, or is this about right over this amount of spins?

I am just not feeling the extra % RTP there compared to JPP, literally sitting through hundreds and hundreds of dead spins. I went over £1000 in deposits the other day at £3 per spin without a main feature (a couple of ruby slippers but nothing bigger than 20x stake) - it was just awful

 

[dunover]

Ok so over the last week or so I've taken a real beasting over at Betsafe on Wizard of Oz Ruby Slippers.

I requested my stats and they look like this:

17,758 wagered and 13,292 returned over 4071 spins. This gives me an RTP of 74.8% on a slot with a TRPT of 95.6% (it's something like that, give or take a .%).

I obviously feel pi**ed off about this, but am I right to, or is this about right over this amount of spins?

I am just not feeling the extra % RTP there compared to JPP, literally sitting through hundreds and hundreds of dead spins. I went over £1000 in deposits the other day at £3 per spin without a main feature (a couple of ruby slippers but nothing bigger than 20x stake) - it was just awful

That is very poor, and if you saw my 96 and 92% RTP thread (comparing average amount of spins and playtime on those 2 RTP's) then imagine a 74% RTP! Deposits will be eaten fast, and indeed have been. I earned my foil hat for a similar post to yours; I simply couldn't believe my ThunderstruckII on Wintingo could pay me at less than 50% over 800 spins. It did improve over the next 600 spins but it was by far my worst experience on that slot and not normal at all.
To deviate that far from TRTP line over 4071 SPINS AND 17758 WAGERED is definitely low and I sympathise and would not expect it either. This is the sort of figure you'd expect sometimes from a very HV slot. As I learned the hard way, it CAN happen. There is no cap on how far over or under the TRTP line you can deviate, but average luck over so many spins would be +/- 15% or less at a guess, based on previous figures I have requested from places.
I would suggest it not unlikely a good session will soon 'readjust' the miserable time you've had. I have often seen that too after long poor runs, when I get back nearer to the TRTP.

 

[ecopac]

I guess thats the thing, how long will it take for a 'good session' to hit though, it could cost thousands more and I think maybe I should just quit now before it gets any worse there.

The other thing that annoys me, Betsafe give you f'all back, regardless of how much you deposit there, they never offer a decent bonus/cashback at all. I think I've had one which was the recent one for £25 free play on Ruby Slippers - which is ironic really.

 

[dunover]

I guess thats the thing, how long will it take for a 'good session' to hit though, it could cost thousands more and I think maybe I should just quit now before it gets any worse there.

The other thing that annoys me, Betsafe give you f'all back, regardless of how much you deposit there, they never offer a decent bonus/cashback at all. I think I've had one which was the recent one for £25 free play on Ruby Slippers - which is ironic really.

Yes, the 64000 dollar question. Your RTP will near 95% one day if you play long enough, and for hundreds of thousands of spins. But how far into the hundreds of thousands of spins would you have to go? That's the randomness, that's the gamble. I remember at 32red I was 3.8k down, miserable and requested my overall RTP which was if I remember 79.1 % over a few months. The very next session I got my 5 gold bars/wild on BDBA freespins for 2250 for 81p stake. I banked then shut the account for 6 months. It's difficult.

 

[ecopac]

Well in one final cruel twist, it has wiped me out. I had £625 left in my Betsafe account, so I withdrew £500 and thought I'd have one last hurrah on Ruby Slippers. Usual stake, £3 with a £125 bankroll, I just hoped for the best.

Went in literally minutes, didn't even manage a 3x stake win.

I waited until the £500 hit my Neteller account before posting this, just to be safe! I have now closed my Betsafe account. I will play somewhere that appreciates their players loyalty a bit more.

All I can hope for now is that Dorothy meets a very messy and untimely death....

 

[dunover]

Well in one final cruel twist, it has wiped me out. I had £625 left in my Betsafe account, so I withdrew £500 and thought I'd have one last hurrah on Ruby Slippers. Usual stake, £3 with a £125 bankroll, I just hoped for the best.

Went in literally minutes, didn't even manage a 3x stake win.

I waited until the £500 hit my Neteller account before posting this, just to be safe! I have now closed my Betsafe account. I will play somewhere that appreciates their players loyalty a bit more.

All I can hope for now is that Dorothy meets a very messy and untimely death....

PS before the Ruby Slippers pasting, were you UP on other Betsafe slots overall?

 

[ecopac]

Well I never checked, to be fair I would probably say yes I'm up, thanks to a £3k win on DOA, but if I was up or down it would only be minimal I think - just recently since the WMS slots hit I have been on a real bad run on everything.

I'm just really bitter and it leaves a sour taste when you lose so much and the casino gives you nothing back, 2k in one day and you get nada. I've sent them a shitty email, not that they'll care.

Still, account closed now so I need to find somewhere else to play! Are Unibet part of the same group, I hear good things about them?

 

[Nate]

Thats a real shitty session - Seems a lot of the RTP is tied up with the Random Wild Feature.

Unibet are independent of Betsson. If you like being looked after I would suggest Redbet - They have been the MOST generous NetEnt for me. Andy is always just a PM away if you have hassles!

Nate

 

[dunover]

Well I never checked, to be fair I would probably say yes I'm up, thanks to a £3k win on DOA, but if I was up or down it would only be minimal I think - just recently since the WMS slots hit I have been on a real bad run on everything.

I'm just really bitter and it leaves a sour taste when you lose so much and the casino gives you nothing back, 2k in one day and you get nada. I've sent them a shitty email, not that they'll care.

Still, account closed now so I need to find somewhere else to play! Are Unibet part of the same group, I hear good things about them?

This brings a different aspect on things. If your OVERALL CASINO RTP is near enough level then you've little to worry about. The casino average RTP is 95%-ish and you've had a crap run after a good one. One thing we all learn is you can't carry on winning.......

 

[Nifty29]

This brings a different aspect on things. If your OVERALL CASINO RTP is near enough level then you've little to worry about. The casino average RTP is 95%-ish and you've had a crap run after a good one. One thing we all learn is you can't carry on winning.......

Exactly.

If you're going to assess the play you receive at a casino, you need to consider the WHOLE picture, not just one or two sessions.

As I've said before, and it's human nature, nobody posts about how they had 3 sessions in a row with a 125% RTP or even a 200% RTP etc...because we all EXPECT to win, even when we think we are "OK with losing".

Taken in isolation, the OP's sessions are awful, but when you factor in a $3k win on DOA, which would make most player salivate, their RTP is probably in the high 90's or even a little over 100% (depending on his tenure/wagered amount at that casino).


If every session, or most sessions, were like this, then even I would be calling for a very strict independent audit, but we already know, just from one additional piece of information (DOA win), that this is not the norm, and that one can have excellent sessions as well.

It would be an interesting, although a little time consuming, exercise for a group of members to commit to obtaining their session RTP figures over a given timeframe (possibly 3 months as a minimum), and post them for analysis. I would wager there will actually be more winning (or very high RTP) sessions than players imagine, and far less very low RTP sessions than players imagine. We just tend to remember the extremes, especially when they are bad. It may put to rest some of the theories that are thrown around here from time to time about RTP's not being as they should, and even though 3 months might not even be close to enough, it should begin to show some semblance of what's going on.

So...who wants to put their money where their theories are?

 

[Borgie]

Well in one final cruel twist, it has wiped me out. I had £625 left in my Betsafe account, so I withdrew £500 and thought I'd have one last hurrah on Ruby Slippers. Usual stake, £3 with a £125 bankroll, I just hoped for the best.

Went in literally minutes, didn't even manage a 3x stake win.

I waited until the £500 hit my Neteller account before posting this, just to be safe! I have now closed my Betsafe account. I will play somewhere that appreciates their players loyalty a bit more.

All I can hope for now is that Dorothy meets a very messy and untimely death....

You need Chopley to chime in here but I would have thought that a £3 stake on a £125 bankroll is very dicey ! A very high stake for that size bankroll !

 

[RikkiGT-R]

You need Chopley to chime in here but I would have thought that a £3 stake on a £125 bankroll is very dicey ! A very high stake for that size bankroll !

I agree but you can also see why he did that, just out of utter frustration. A case of get rich or bust quickly trying. Plenty of times I've played off my last £90 or so on £3 spins just to intentionally lose.
But sometimes I do hit a biggie

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It would be an interesting, although a little time consuming, exercise for a group of members to commit to obtaining their session RTP figures over a given timeframe (possibly 3 months as a minimum), and post them for analysis. I would wager there will actually be more winning (or very high RTP) sessions than players imagine, and far less very low RTP sessions than players imagine. We just tend to remember the extremes, especially when they are bad. It may put to rest some of the theories that are thrown around here from time to time about RTP's not being as they should, and even though 3 months might not even be close to enough, it should begin to show some semblance of what's going on.

So...who wants to put their money where their theories are?

I can come close-ish to that sort of thing, I pulled my entire Neteller history the other week (it dates back to last May) - since I've done EVERYTHING online through Neteller since I opened the account, that is a 100% accurate record of my online gambling for the last eleven months.

Neteller let you export your history as a CSV file, which of course can then be manipulated in Excel, and once I'd stripped out the extraneous stuff (withdrawing from one casino and depositing into another, for example), I was able to get down to the nitty gritty, how much money had I deposited into my Neteller account, and how much had I withdrawn out of it from the ATM with my NET+ card.

Turns out I'm several hundred quid in profit over an eleven month period, not a fortune of course, but it does mean that I've sustained an overall RTP of over 100% for hundreds of thousands of spins.

I'm not saying this as a boast, but as an indication of how random numbers can do somewhat unexpected things sometimes. Especially since included in there is an absolute run from hell at Jackpot Party where I lost over £1000 in a month.

So to bring this full circle to the OP's point, horrible runs are part of gambling online on random games, and when they're nasty, they can be very nasty. The run described by the OP is bad one, but just over 4000 spins is a very small sample size, especially on a slot like Ruby Slippers which is medium variance and has an awful lot of the RTP tied up in the Slipper Wilds feature, if you don't get a nice 3-4 wilds feature for a long time, that slot can get pretty brutal.

Generally speaking I reckon on needing 300x my stake MINIMUM to want to take on Ruby Slippers, I won't increase my bet to even 60p unless my bankroll is £200 or better.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

You need Chopley to chime in here but I would have thought that a £3 stake on a £125 bankroll is very dicey ! A very high stake for that size bankroll !

As a death or glory move it's a valid option, I did that on Wizard of Oz a few weeks ago at Unibet, literally my last £20, fired it up at £3 spins and hit a mega big win off the bats feature for £840 - if you're going to bust out on a session, sometimes it's worth just doing it in style, on the off chance you hit big.

 

[Nifty29]

I can come close-ish to that sort of thing, I pulled my entire Neteller history the other week (it dates back to last May) - since I've done EVERYTHING online through Neteller since I opened the account, that is a 100% accurate record of my online gambling for the last eleven months.

Neteller let you export your history as a CSV file, which of course can then be manipulated in Excel, and once I'd stripped out the extraneous stuff (withdrawing from one casino and depositing into another, for example), I was able to get down to the nitty gritty, how much money had I deposited into my Neteller account, and how much had I withdrawn out of it from the ATM with my NET+ card.

Turns out I'm several hundred quid in profit over an eleven month period, not a fortune of course, but it does mean that I've sustained an overall RTP of over 100% for hundreds of thousands of spins.

I'm not saying this as a boast, but as an indication of how random numbers can do somewhat unexpected things sometimes. Especially since included in there is an absolute run from hell at Jackpot Party where I lost over £1000 in a month.

So to bring this full circle to the OP's point, horrible runs are part of gambling online on random games, and when they're nasty, they can be very nasty. The run described by the OP is bad one, but just over 4000 spins is a very small sample size, especially on a slot like Ruby Slippers which is medium variance and has an awful lot of the RTP tied up in the Slipper Wilds feature, if you don't get a nice 3-4 wilds feature for a long time, that slot can get pretty brutal.

Generally speaking I reckon on needing 300x my stake MINIMUM to want to take on Ruby Slippers, I won't increase my bet to even 60p unless my bankroll is £200 or better.

Well it's not really what the issue is here. Deposits vs withdrawals doesn't give you an RTP figure on a per session basis, it just gives you a profit/loss for that deposit/s. As we know, you can have a 99% RTP session and lose your entire bankroll.

Incidentally, how do you know how many spins you made? Sure it is a rough estimate?

What your data cannot show is the distribution of your wins across various games. You could have had 92% on several games, and 105% on one or two, giving you a profit overall, but it doesn't help those who insist that the games don't really pay what they say they pay.

It would need what I suggested as a minimum to really demonstrate how perception and focusing on single events can cloud one's judgement and opinion, and in some cases, beliefs.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well it's not really what the issue is here. Deposits vs withdrawals doesn't give you an RTP figure on a per session basis, it just gives you a profit/loss for that deposit/s. As we know, you can have a 99% RTP session and lose your entire bankroll.

Incidentally, how do you know how many spins you made? Sure it is a rough estimate?

What your data cannot show is the distribution of your wins across various games. You could have had 92% on several games, and 105% on one or two, giving you a profit overall, but it doesn't help those who insist that the games don't really pay what they say they pay.

It would need what I suggested as a minimum to really demonstrate how perception and focusing on single events can cloud one's judgement and opinion, and in some cases, beliefs.

I'd say the closest we've got to that is perhaps the 300,000+ spin 'experiment' I did on Starburst trying to get a full screen of BARS, where I recorded my balance after every 10,000 spins at €1 per spin from a starting balance of €5000 - I was left in no doubt that slot paid the 96%+ RTP that it was stated to.

You've also got kktmd (can't remember his exact username ) who's chucked 1,000,000 spins at IR and it's finished up pretty much exactly on its stated RTP.

4000 spins is a very small sample size, especially for a medium variance slot like Slippers, so a bad run will feel very brutal on it, especially at £3 spins.

 

[Balthazar]

I'd say the closest we've got to that is perhaps the 300,000+ spin 'experiment' I did on Starburst trying to get a full screen of BARS, where I recorded my balance after every 10,000 spins at €1 per spin from a starting balance of €5000 - I was left in no doubt that slot paid the 96%+ RTP that it was stated to.

Which reminds me that we never really got the results of your Starburst experience, Chop! Your Youtube channel was shut down right in the middle of the experiment!

Unless I missed it, of course.

 

[mrmark21]

I've had the same experience on the WOZ games ecopac. The real potential there are the random wild features although IMO these seem to appear more in free mode than they do in real mode.

Other members have also commented on Betsafe being a little bit tight regarding bonuses/freebies. I suggest you take you're money somewhere that will appreciate you. Redbet is a good bet

One WMS game I'm a huge fan of is Magic Wand (only available at Nordicbet not sure about JPP) this slot has an awesome feature that seems to hit quite often and the wins are generally good. I've had my biggest WMS wins on this slot.

The moment you feel yourself getting bitter stop playing. I can't stress that enough. You should expect to loose playing the slots. Unless you hit a jackpot eventually you'll end up putting everything you've won on the slots back in. My wallet will tell you the same thing

I play the slots for fun. I easily get bored but when I'm absolutely dying from boredom I tend to chuck $200 into the slots betting big bet's. I'll do so on an insanely high variance game like Immortal Romance. I could loose or I could win a whole months worth of playtime.

RTP can work both ways. Catch 22

 

[Roller_Jamie]

I think others in the thread have covered the expected RTP and deviations expected from those amounts quite well so won't repeat on that point.

However I am interested in how long a period there was between this large loss and you closing your account? The reason I ask is that you made a point around not being valued and getting nothing in return, but perhaps you just didn't give them a chance to reward you. While it would be great if every player got individual service from their casino, this just isn't feasible and so you may have found a contact or bonus credit coming in due course. There will almost always be a delay in the reaction of a VIP Manager or similar in a company, and that delay differs depending on the organisation.

My recommendation would have been to await a response to your mail about their rewards service etc. before closing the account down.

 

[ecopac]

Thanks for the responses guys and point taken about the RTP - to be honest I never thought of it as accumulative across the whole casino, rather than I should be getting that RTP per game, and I also appreciate 4000 spins is relatively small.

Still doesn't stop me being pissed off about it, and I have closed my account. I wasn't referring just to that occasion they didn't give me anything, it's been on every occasion I lost.

I sent my email to them with my reasons, they simply replied with 'Ok we've closed it' - literally tried nothing to keep me there, so their loss.

In better news, I am trying my hand over at Unibet and I have to say, off my first deposit of £200 I hit this which has cheered my up somewhat. I'm also giving this 'Leprechauns of Egypt' a go - what a strange slot this is, nothing makes sense at all! Still a positive start so maybe a change is as good as a rest anyway.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Leprechaun Goes Egypt is pretty poor IMO, there are far better slots to play at Unibet.

Also, do watch out with those £3 spins on WMS slots, you really don't need much of a bad run to see a large bankroll get obliterated!

 

[Cogge]

Hey all, I ran some numbers on this. Below are the results of 10000 players starting with €20000 and betting €4 per spin on Roulette until they have bet €17000. I chose €17000 as that's the number the OP had turned over and with 4000 bets, it's a bit over €4 per spin, but to make it easy i picked €4.

A slot tends to be more volatile than playing the roulette when it comes to these amounts of spins (4000+), and as you can see, even the luckiest player "only" managed to win €5752 during his betting. He had a RTP of 132%. On the other side of the spectrum we have the unluckiest player, who only managed a RTP of 65%.

From this simulation we can see that 335 out of 10000 players (3.35%) landed on an RTP of 80% or less. So I guess, everyone can get really really unlucky, even after betting €17000 on 4000 spins.

Start stack	End stack	Number of players	Result	RTP
20000	25752	1	5752	1.34
20000	25320	1	5320	1.31
20000	24744	2	4744	1.28
20000	24600	1	4600	1.27
20000	24456	6	4456	1.26
20000	24312	2	4312	1.25
20000	24168	3	4168	1.25
20000	24024	5	4024	1.24
20000	23880	8	3880	1.23
20000	23736	10	3736	1.22
20000	23592	11	3592	1.21
20000	23448	19	3448	1.2
20000	23304	26	3304	1.19
20000	23160	29	3160	1.19
20000	23016	34	3016	1.18
20000	22872	30	2872	1.17
20000	22728	64	2728	1.16
20000	22584	60	2584	1.15
20000	22440	65	2440	1.14
20000	22296	58	2296	1.14
20000	22152	89	2152	1.13
20000	22008	93	2008	1.12
20000	21864	122	1864	1.11
20000	21720	130	1720	1.1
20000	21576	167	1576	1.09
20000	21432	179	1432	1.08
20000	21288	187	1288	1.08
20000	21144	211	1144	1.07
20000	21000	217	1000	1.06
20000	20856	252	856	1.05
20000	20712	269	712	1.04
20000	20568	302	568	1.03
20000	20424	318	424	1.02
20000	20280	331	280	1.02
20000	20136	332	136	1.01
20000	19992	368	-8	1
20000	19848	379	-152	0.99
20000	19704	415	-296	0.98
20000	19560	352	-440	0.97
20000	19416	364	-584	0.97
20000	19272	368	-728	0.96
20000	19128	335	-872	0.95
20000	18984	345	-1016	0.94
20000	18840	356	-1160	0.93
20000	18696	334	-1304	0.92
20000	18552	319	-1448	0.91
20000	18408	276	-1592	0.91
20000	18264	238	-1736	0.9
20000	18120	242	-1880	0.89
20000	17976	223	-2024	0.88
20000	17832	216	-2168	0.87
20000	17688	216	-2312	0.86
20000	17544	169	-2456	0.86
20000	17400	146	-2600	0.85
20000	17256	114	-2744	0.84
20000	17112	106	-2888	0.83
20000	16968	75	-3032	0.82
20000	16824	75	-3176	0.81
20000	16680	70	-3320	0.8
20000	16536	69	-3464	0.8
20000	16392	52	-3608	0.79
20000	16248	29	-3752	0.78
20000	16104	35	-3896	0.77
20000	15960	20	-4040	0.76
20000	15816	10	-4184	0.75
20000	15672	14	-4328	0.75
20000	15528	9	-4472	0.74
20000	15384	6	-4616	0.73
20000	15240	7	-4760	0.72
20000	15096	2	-4904	0.71
20000	14952	2	-5048	0.7
20000	14808	3	-5192	0.69
20000	14664	1	-5336	0.69
20000	14520	3	-5480	0.68
20000	14232	1	-5768	0.66
20000	14088	2	-5912	0.65

[/td][/tr]