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Does this count as a 100%+ payout?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Simmo!, Jun 3, 2004.

Tags:
    Jun 3, 2004
  1. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Hi guys

    So here's a question: while setting up paytables and payouts on my site, i noticed that Double Bonus Video Poker at William Hill (Wagerlogic in general i assume) is 99.94% (played to the optimum of course). But Will Hill also offer cash-back at 0.1%. Over the course of 6 months, i worked out that cash-back actually is closer to 0.6% of the deposits taking into account wins and re-staking.

    So my question is, does this effectively make this a 100.54% payout game if played correctly? I ought to add that i am up over 6 months on this game alone (approx 250k of stakes) which seems to back it up.

    Cheers

    Simmo
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2004
  2. Jun 3, 2004
  3. Clayman

    Clayman Dormant account

    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    I don't really know but I imagine the 0.1% is based on total dollars wagered. Don't know why you would relate this to deposits and re-staking.
    But it would at least make it a 100.04% game.
     
  4. Jun 3, 2004
  5. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Ah ok - i may be being a bit un-mathematical admittedly Clayman :) But what i mean is, i put in 100, by the time i've finished playing, i've done 600 of bets from the same initial deposit of 100 and my cash-back is 60 pence (600 x 0.1%), which is 0.6% of my initial deposit of 100? Does that make sense?
     
  6. Jun 3, 2004
  7. hhcfreebie

    hhcfreebie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    research
    Location:
    USA
    No. The payback has nothing to do with your deposit.
    If you deposit $10, wager $6000 and get $6 comp points. Does that make your comp points at 6/10=60%? Obviously not.
    I think you are confused with the "hold" and "payback". Hold means the ratio of cashin to deposit while payback means how much you get back for each dollar wagered. Hold is totally meaningless to players. Payback is what counts.
     
  8. Jun 3, 2004
  9. Clayman

    Clayman Dormant account

    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Well, not really. While true, it's just not what matters.

    The amount of your deposit is irrelevant. If you had managed to wager $600 (I don't know how to do pound signs!) on a $1 deposit, you still would have received 60 cents back which would be 60% of your $1 deposit. I think you can see this would not mean the game itself suddenly has a 159.94% payback.

    You're supposed to get back, over the long run, 99.94% of your total dollars wagered, whether you deposit $1 or $1MM. If you get 0.1% more back on your total wagers, the game becomes a 100.04% EV.

    Hope this helps a little :)

    Edited to add - I see freebie, as usual, can explain things better and quicker than I can. LOL
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2004
  10. Jun 3, 2004
  11. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    ah ok - i see. That makes perfect sense hhc and clayman...thanks guys :) But i can live with 100.04 i guess. :thumbsup:
     
  12. Jun 5, 2004
  13. bradleyt

    bradleyt Dormant account

    The double bonus actually pays out 100.17%

    Code:
    Double BOnus Video Poker
    Hand Name	Payout	Frequency	% Prob.	Occurs Every	% of Ret.
    Royal Flush	4200	64.506273	0.002%	40290.04	2.08%
    4 Aces		750	524.64217	0.020%	4953.776	3.03%
    4 2's 3's 4's	450	1525.1313	0.059%	1704.089	5.28%
    Straight Flush	250	275.96603	0.011%	9417.681	0.53%
    4 of a Kind	250	4105.6749	0.158%	633.0165	7.90%
    Full House	40	29659.990	1.141%	87.62512	9.13%
    Flush		25	28267.793	1.088%	91.94068	5.44%
    Straight	20	29232.571	1.125%	88.90631	4.50%
    3 of a Kind	10	193850.23	7.459%	13.40705	14.92%
    Two Pair	10	336100.07	12.932%	7.732697	25.86%
    Jacks or Better	5	558778.51	21.500%	4.651145	21.50%
    NOTHING		0	1416574.9	54.505%	1.834679	0.00%
    Total Return	100.1729%
    Variance		32.23252
    
     
  14. Jun 5, 2004
  15. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    Where did you get these numbers from? The Wizard, whom I trust very much in mathematical matters, has 99.94% on his website, and You must register/login in order to see the link. also gives 99.94%.
     
  16. Jun 5, 2004
  17. Clayman

    Clayman Dormant account

    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    It's a little garbled but Winpoker seems also to give 99.9367% payback.

    DOUBLE BONUS POKER
    Hand Name Payout Frequency % Prob. Occurs Every % of Ret.
    ROYAL FLUSH 4200 64.740534 0.002% 40144.25 2.09%
    STRAIGHT FLUSH 250 279.01869 0.011% 9314.645 0.54%
    4 ACES 750 526.15302 0.020% 4939.552 3.04%
    4 2s, 3s or 4s 450 1370.6528 0.053% 1896.148 4.75%
    4 5-K 250 4258.0658 0.164% 610.3616 8.19%
    FULL HOUSE 40 29650.559 1.141% 87.65298 9.13%
    FLUSH 25 28387.430 1.092% 91.55320 5.46%
    STRAIGHT 20 29943.929 1.152% 86.79422 4.61%
    3 OF A KIND 10 193709.43 7.453% 13.41680 14.91%
    TWO PAIR 10 335715.73 12.917% 7.741550 25.83%
    JACKS OR BETTER 5 556030.31 21.394% 4.674134 21.39%
    NOTHING 0 1419024.0 54.600% 1.831512 0.00%
    Total Return 99.9367%
    Variance 31.98543
     
  18. Jun 6, 2004
  19. bradleyt

    bradleyt Dormant account

    Bill Dancer Presents WinPoker 6.0 which I trust more than any other site considering he's won millions playing video poker.

    And also the game itself has a stamp that says, "Certified over 100% payback".
     
  20. Jun 6, 2004
  21. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Interesting Bradley. I just checked it in VP Calculator from Gamblecraft and it came out at 99.94% too. Wonder if one ofthese softwares has a bug in it...can anyone verify?
     
  22. Jun 7, 2004
  23. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    I thought I found that winpoker came up with slightly over 100% on this one as well. I'll check it again tonite to see if this is the case but that 100.17% figure looks correct. You guys are all looking at the same casino, same denomination for the paytables right? Remember different RTGs use different paytables, and I think I remember some (vegas strip group) having different paytables when you went up from nickels to quarters.
     
  24. Jun 7, 2004
  25. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Hi JPM - this is a Crypto casino..pay as follows:

    RF - 4200
    4Aces - 750
    4 2,3,4 - 450
    4oak - 250
    SF - 250
    FH - 40
    Fl - 25
    St - 20
    3oak - 10
    2p - 10
    JoB - 5
     
  26. Jun 7, 2004
  27. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    4200 for a royal? What an odd amount (though it is even).
     
  28. Jun 7, 2004
  29. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    it is yes - but it is right :)
     
  30. Jun 8, 2004
  31. hhcfreebie

    hhcfreebie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    research
    Location:
    USA
    My winpoker gave me the exact same number.
    I think they combine their comp points to give "over 100% payout". The payout for the game itself is not over 100%.
     
  32. Jun 8, 2004
  33. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Or maybe they mean "over 100%" is the *actual* payout to customers rather than expected return across all Crypto casinos?
     
  34. Jun 12, 2004
  35. bradleyt

    bradleyt Dormant account

    I don't know why we would get different results, but WinPoker says 100.17.

    My version of WP is 6.0.5 and is over a year old. Maybe there's a flaw in it?
     
  36. Jun 12, 2004
  37. Clayman

    Clayman Dormant account

    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    So is mine!

    I changed the paytable so all single coins were one-fifth of 5 coin payout. Could that be it?

    Edited to add : Or maybe because I made it be 4 5-K rather than "4 of a kind".
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2004
  38. Jun 12, 2004
  39. ukcroupier

    ukcroupier Webmaster

    The lower figure is correct (99.9367) - I had this confirmed about 2 years ago by Dean Zamzow (author of winpoker)

    bradleyt: double check everything you've setup, especialy the way you've setup the quads.
     

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