Does this count as a 100%+ payout?

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Hi guys

So here's a question: while setting up paytables and payouts on my site, i noticed that Double Bonus Video Poker at William Hill (Wagerlogic in general i assume) is 99.94% (played to the optimum of course). But Will Hill also offer cash-back at 0.1%. Over the course of 6 months, i worked out that cash-back actually is closer to 0.6% of the deposits taking into account wins and re-staking.

So my question is, does this effectively make this a 100.54% payout game if played correctly? I ought to add that i am up over 6 months on this game alone (approx 250k of stakes) which seems to back it up.

Cheers

Simmo
 
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Clayman

Dormant account
Simmo! said:
Will Hill also offer cash-back at 0.1%. Over the course of 6 months, i worked out that cash-back actually is closer to 0.6% of the deposits taking into account wins and re-staking.
I don't really know but I imagine the 0.1% is based on total dollars wagered. Don't know why you would relate this to deposits and re-staking.
But it would at least make it a 100.04% game.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Ah ok - i may be being a bit un-mathematical admittedly Clayman :) But what i mean is, i put in 100, by the time i've finished playing, i've done 600 of bets from the same initial deposit of 100 and my cash-back is 60 pence (600 x 0.1%), which is 0.6% of my initial deposit of 100? Does that make sense?
 

hhcfreebie

Dormant account
Simmo! said:
Ah ok - i may be being a bit un-mathematical admittedly Clayman :) But what i mean is, i put in 100, by the time i've finished playing, i've done 600 of bets from the same initial deposit of 100 and my cash-back is 60 pence (600 x 0.1%), which is 0.6% of my initial deposit of 100? Does that make sense?
No. The payback has nothing to do with your deposit.
If you deposit $10, wager $6000 and get $6 comp points. Does that make your comp points at 6/10=60%? Obviously not.
I think you are confused with the "hold" and "payback". Hold means the ratio of cashin to deposit while payback means how much you get back for each dollar wagered. Hold is totally meaningless to players. Payback is what counts.
 

Clayman

Dormant account
Simmo! said:
Ah ok - i may be being a bit un-mathematical admittedly Clayman :) But what i mean is, i put in 100, by the time i've finished playing, i've done 600 of bets from the same initial deposit of 100 and my cash-back is 60 pence (600 x 0.1%), which is 0.6% of my initial deposit of 100? Does that make sense?
Well, not really. While true, it's just not what matters.

The amount of your deposit is irrelevant. If you had managed to wager $600 (I don't know how to do pound signs!) on a $1 deposit, you still would have received 60 cents back which would be 60% of your $1 deposit. I think you can see this would not mean the game itself suddenly has a 159.94% payback.

You're supposed to get back, over the long run, 99.94% of your total dollars wagered, whether you deposit $1 or $1MM. If you get 0.1% more back on your total wagers, the game becomes a 100.04% EV.

Hope this helps a little :)

Edited to add - I see freebie, as usual, can explain things better and quicker than I can. LOL
 
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Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
ah ok - i see. That makes perfect sense hhc and clayman...thanks guys :) But i can live with 100.04 i guess. :thumbsup:
 

bradleyt

Dormant account
The double bonus actually pays out 100.17%

Code:
Double BOnus Video Poker
Hand Name	Payout	Frequency	% Prob.	Occurs Every	% of Ret.
Royal Flush	4200	64.506273	0.002%	40290.04	2.08%
4 Aces		750	524.64217	0.020%	4953.776	3.03%
4 2's 3's 4's	450	1525.1313	0.059%	1704.089	5.28%
Straight Flush	250	275.96603	0.011%	9417.681	0.53%
4 of a Kind	250	4105.6749	0.158%	633.0165	7.90%
Full House	40	29659.990	1.141%	87.62512	9.13%
Flush		25	28267.793	1.088%	91.94068	5.44%
Straight	20	29232.571	1.125%	88.90631	4.50%
3 of a Kind	10	193850.23	7.459%	13.40705	14.92%
Two Pair	10	336100.07	12.932%	7.732697	25.86%
Jacks or Better	5	558778.51	21.500%	4.651145	21.50%
NOTHING		0	1416574.9	54.505%	1.834679	0.00%
Total Return	100.1729%
Variance		32.23252
 

Clayman

Dormant account
GrandMaster said:
Where did you get these numbers from? The Wizard, whom I trust very much in mathematical matters, has 99.94% on his website, and www.gamblingtools.net also gives 99.94%.
It's a little garbled but Winpoker seems also to give 99.9367% payback.

DOUBLE BONUS POKER
Hand Name Payout Frequency % Prob. Occurs Every % of Ret.
ROYAL FLUSH 4200 64.740534 0.002% 40144.25 2.09%
STRAIGHT FLUSH 250 279.01869 0.011% 9314.645 0.54%
4 ACES 750 526.15302 0.020% 4939.552 3.04%
4 2s, 3s or 4s 450 1370.6528 0.053% 1896.148 4.75%
4 5-K 250 4258.0658 0.164% 610.3616 8.19%
FULL HOUSE 40 29650.559 1.141% 87.65298 9.13%
FLUSH 25 28387.430 1.092% 91.55320 5.46%
STRAIGHT 20 29943.929 1.152% 86.79422 4.61%
3 OF A KIND 10 193709.43 7.453% 13.41680 14.91%
TWO PAIR 10 335715.73 12.917% 7.741550 25.83%
JACKS OR BETTER 5 556030.31 21.394% 4.674134 21.39%
NOTHING 0 1419024.0 54.600% 1.831512 0.00%
Total Return 99.9367%
Variance 31.98543
 

bradleyt

Dormant account
Bill Dancer Presents WinPoker 6.0 which I trust more than any other site considering he's won millions playing video poker.

And also the game itself has a stamp that says, "Certified over 100% payback".
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Interesting Bradley. I just checked it in VP Calculator from Gamblecraft and it came out at 99.94% too. Wonder if one ofthese softwares has a bug in it...can anyone verify?
 

jpm

Dormant account
I thought I found that winpoker came up with slightly over 100% on this one as well. I'll check it again tonite to see if this is the case but that 100.17% figure looks correct. You guys are all looking at the same casino, same denomination for the paytables right? Remember different RTGs use different paytables, and I think I remember some (vegas strip group) having different paytables when you went up from nickels to quarters.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Hi JPM - this is a Crypto casino..pay as follows:

RF - 4200
4Aces - 750
4 2,3,4 - 450
4oak - 250
SF - 250
FH - 40
Fl - 25
St - 20
3oak - 10
2p - 10
JoB - 5
 

hhcfreebie

Dormant account
Clayman said:
It's a little garbled but Winpoker seems also to give 99.9367% payback.

DOUBLE BONUS POKER
Hand Name Payout Frequency % Prob. Occurs Every % of Ret.
ROYAL FLUSH 4200 64.740534 0.002% 40144.25 2.09%
STRAIGHT FLUSH 250 279.01869 0.011% 9314.645 0.54%
4 ACES 750 526.15302 0.020% 4939.552 3.04%
4 2s, 3s or 4s 450 1370.6528 0.053% 1896.148 4.75%
4 5-K 250 4258.0658 0.164% 610.3616 8.19%
FULL HOUSE 40 29650.559 1.141% 87.65298 9.13%
FLUSH 25 28387.430 1.092% 91.55320 5.46%
STRAIGHT 20 29943.929 1.152% 86.79422 4.61%
3 OF A KIND 10 193709.43 7.453% 13.41680 14.91%
TWO PAIR 10 335715.73 12.917% 7.741550 25.83%
JACKS OR BETTER 5 556030.31 21.394% 4.674134 21.39%
NOTHING 0 1419024.0 54.600% 1.831512 0.00%
Total Return 99.9367%
Variance 31.98543
My winpoker gave me the exact same number.
I think they combine their comp points to give "over 100% payout". The payout for the game itself is not over 100%.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Or maybe they mean "over 100%" is the *actual* payout to customers rather than expected return across all Crypto casinos?
 

bradleyt

Dormant account
I don't know why we would get different results, but WinPoker says 100.17.

My version of WP is 6.0.5 and is over a year old. Maybe there's a flaw in it?
 

Clayman

Dormant account
bradleyt said:
My version of WP is 6.0.5
So is mine!

I changed the paytable so all single coins were one-fifth of 5 coin payout. Could that be it?

Edited to add : Or maybe because I made it be 4 5-K rather than "4 of a kind".
 
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ukcroupier

Webmaster
The lower figure is correct (99.9367) - I had this confirmed about 2 years ago by Dean Zamzow (author of winpoker)

bradleyt: double check everything you've setup, especialy the way you've setup the quads.
 
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