Documents request: lawyer needed

bryand

Beach Bum
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Location
Just Across the Hudson River
My 2 cents again....

thats pretty much how it goes except that ill add that when a notary affixes a seal and signs and dates a document and that document is filed with the court clerk it does then become a legal doc.

I realize we may be splitting hairs here but for the record, neither notarization nor recording a document with the county clerk has an effect on its legality. In fact, not even real estate documents are REQUIRED to be notarized or recorded. The sole purpose for recording is to make the document a matter of public record thereby giving notice to all third parties.

I know.....way too much information. :D
 

mush

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Location
not where i want to be
I realize we may be splitting hairs here but for the record, neither notarization nor recording a document with the county clerk has an effect on its legality. In fact, not even real estate documents are REQUIRED to be notarized or recorded. The sole purpose for recording is to make the document a matter of public record thereby giving notice to all third parties.
I know.....way too much information. :D

i'm sorry, but this is just not true. are you an attorney? i'm sorry to sound mean, but i really hope you are not.

you are correct in the fact that NO document whatsoever is required to be notarized, however, if you would like for them to be considered real and enforceable, then some documents must be notarized. these types of documents would include anything such as wills, powers of attys, affidavits, contracts, etc. these documents are pertaining to someone giving up/delegating a personal right they naturally hold either now or in the future (wills/pwrs of atty); written sworn testimony (affidavits) - replaces personal testimony in a court of law, thus the signature on that document affirming the person named in the document is the person who actually signed the document; contract - a document that is creating some sort of obligation for each party and again the person who is being bound by this obligation must sign the document affirming they actually agree to be bound by this agreement. again, this signature would have to be authenticated since it would create chaos to allow anyone to enter into contracts in various individuals names - this includes any real estate document concerning mortgages, other liens, etc.

some documents, such as wills, don't have to be recorded with the court, but must be probated upon the death of said person. there is no requirement in the way any will is written, but there are certain requirements if you would like for the court to enforce the document. most wills are notarized in order to eliminate any question of validity and make the probate process as smooth as possible, but there are always the wills that people have kept in their nightstand for 30 yrs that will appear once someone has died and are not notarized. many of these wills are immediately deemed invalid based on the fact that one of the witnesses to the signature of the will is an interested party (family member or beneficiary of will) and this is not allowed. if the will passes this hurdle, then you move on to the next step where you attempt to locate the witnesses and begin the authentication process that way, but that is not a fun process.

then there are documents that may not need to be notarized, but they MUST be recorded/filed with the court. these would include certain documents pertaining to real property, such as a homestead exemption claim.

then there are documents that must be notarized AND filed with the court to be considered valid and these would include way too many things to name, but sticking with the probate/estate theme - documents concerning the opening of an estate for someone who died intestate (w/o a will). there are too many documents to name just in this one instance that have the dual requirement, but one would be a claim against the estate. in order to have a valid claim against an estate such as this, you would have to file a notarized claim with the probate court. now, in the us probate law varies from state to state regarding property division should someone die w/o a will, but this type of document would have the same requirements to be considered valid throughout the us.

if you think you know too much info on this topic, you may need to brush up a little........sorry about that.
 

bryand

Beach Bum
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Location
Just Across the Hudson River
I'm getting bored with this silly pissing contest but I'll try just once more.

you are correct in the fact that NO document whatsoever is required to be notarized, however, if you would like for them to be considered real and enforceable, then some documents must be notarized. these types of documents would include anything such as wills, powers of attys, affidavits, contracts, etc. these documents are pertaining to someone giving up/delegating a personal right they naturally hold either now or in the future (wills/pwrs of atty); written sworn testimony (affidavits) - replaces personal testimony in a court of law, thus the signature on that document affirming the person named in the document is the person who actually signed the document; contract - a document that is creating some sort of obligation for each party and again the person who is being bound by this obligation must sign the document affirming they actually agree to be bound by this agreement. again, this signature would have to be authenticated since it would create chaos to allow anyone to enter into contracts in various individuals names - this includes any real estate document concerning mortgages, other liens, etc.

Then why doesn't the underlying promissory note have to be witnessed or notarized? And are you saying that the absence of a witness and/or notary necessarily makes a contract invalid?? I would love a copy of that case law for my files.

then there are documents that may not need to be notarized, but they MUST be recorded/filed with the court. these would include certain documents pertaining to real property, such as a homestead exemption claim.

then there are documents that must be notarized AND filed with the court to be considered valid and these would include way too many things to name, but sticking with the probate/estate theme - documents concerning the opening of an estate for someone who died intestate (w/o a will). there are too many documents to name just in this one instance that have the dual requirement, but one would be a claim against the estate. in order to have a valid claim against an estate such as this, you would have to file a notarized claim with the probate court. now, in the us probate law varies from state to state regarding property division should someone die w/o a will, but this type of document would have the same requirements to be considered valid throughout the us.

Affidavits are sworn statements in front of a notary by definition - clearly outside the scope of this issue.

Real estate documents must be written - not oral, and signed by the grantor and witnessed, and are legally binding between the parties but not against third parties unless acknowledged and recorded in the proper jurisdiction.

My original comment is 100% true: "neither notarization nor recording a document with the county clerk has an effect on its legality".
 

TDTAT

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Location
Gambleville
Hi

have you ever experienced a request from a casino support asking you to provide documents notarized by a lawyer?

I understand that casino needs to verify the identity of his players, but it is not going a bit too far?

Ciao

Hello everyone.. sorry to jump in but I see this thread
could go downhill fast.. I think we can all
agree to the answer of the orginal post/question.

ANSWER: YES It is going too far to ask for a document notorized "by a lawyer"
:thumbsup:
 

mush

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Location
not where i want to be
i'm sorry, but i actually have to practice law during the week, so i don't have the time to post a detailed reply to bryand. just to touch on a few things - you are correct that contracts do not have to be notarized and actually, oral contracts are enforceable in my state, i was attempting to address a point you made about real estate documents and worded my reply poorly. my comment concerning affidavits was an attempt to outline the different types of documents that exist and the legal requirements that exist for those to be enforceable. i could possibly argue, based on the contents, that whatever document the casino is requesting could be viewed as an affidavit, so it would be in the scope of this conversation. your comment about real estate documents didn't address anything i said about them being notarized. as for your last comment, i think you are trying to really push the issue here for some reason with the wording used and i'm sure you could conjure up some situation where your comment would be technically correct, but in the context you are attempting to use it - you are 100% wrong.

also, you never answered my question whether you are a lawyer? i have a feeling you are a law student, but just a hunch......
 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
So then based on all these posts by a real attorney and by Bryan's somewhat enhanced knowledge, would it be safe to say that some documents are only legally enforceable if they are in fact notarized ? Yes or No will do...

Please circle only one...:D
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
So then based on all these posts by a real attorney and by Bryan's somewhat enhanced knowledge, would it be safe to say that some documents are only legally enforceable if they are in fact notarized ? Yes or No will do...

Please circle only one...:D

Maybe.
 

mush

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Location
not where i want to be
So then based on all these posts by a real attorney and by Bryan's somewhat enhanced knowledge, would it be safe to say that some documents are only legally enforceable if they are in fact notarized ? Yes or No will do...

Please circle only one...:D

what winbig said......:laugh:

the bottom line on this stuff - having a document notarized ONLY verifies that the person who is identified in the document and signed the document is, in fact, this person. that's IT, nothing else. certain documents that require a party's signature will only be considered valid if they are notarized.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
what winbig said......:laugh:

the bottom line on this stuff - having a document notarized ONLY verifies that the person who is identified in the document and signed the document is, in fact, this person. that's IT, nothing else. certain documents that require a party's signature will only be considered valid if they are notarized.

Exactly!

I could go get a paper notarized saying that I sent a check worth $1M to Rob. Which isn't true, but how would the notary know that?
 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
Exactly!

I could go get a paper notarized saying that I sent a check worth $1M to Rob. Which isn't true, but how would the notary know that?

You guys are killing me....:lolup::notworthy

and Win, exactly when did your processor process that check anyway ?...because I STILL have not received it yet...where's Max when I need to PAB....:D
 

GGW Laurie

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Jun 16, 2006
Location
In the Beautiful South !!
Exactly!

I could go get a paper notarized saying that I sent a check worth $1M to Rob. Which isn't true, but how would the notary know that?

You guys are killing me....:lolup::notworthy

and Win, exactly when did your processor process that check anyway ?...because I STILL have not received it yet...where's Max when I need to PAB....:D
...oh hell lets end this now, winbig ill notarize that paper that says you owe rob 1 million if rob agrees to half it with me and we will have mush draw up the paper....agreed? good!! done!!! whatcha gonna do with your half rob? we will have to cut mush in too!!:D
 

mush

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Location
not where i want to be
...oh hell lets end this now, winbig ill notarize that paper that says you owe rob 1 million if rob agrees to half it with me and we will have mush draw up the paper....agreed? good!! done!!! whatcha gonna do with your half rob? we will have to cut mush in too!!:D

lauriejim - i like your style!!!!! ;)
 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
...oh hell lets end this now, winbig ill notarize that paper that says you owe rob 1 million if rob agrees to half it with me and we will have mush draw up the paper....agreed? good!! done!!! whatcha gonna do with your half rob? we will have to cut mush in too!!:D

Oh girl...you're too funny, I really am on the floor right now laughing my ass off and I promise I will share the wealth if Win's processor comes thru...:lolup:
 

1819

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Location
ny,nj,fla
dear wellthee people. i is in charge of a rich busnesss mans astate in nigeria. i need sum moneys to free up millions in money in a account. pLease send me the big check sO i can give to you percent of money icannot get out of countrie. i thank foryoUr time. send check to me now oK.
 
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