Documents request: lawyer needed

[roby1978]

Hi

have you ever experienced a request from a casino support asking you to provide documents notarized by a lawyer?

I understand that casino needs to verify the identity of his players, but it is not going a bit too far?

Ciao

 

[gfkostas]

Hi

have you ever experienced a request from a casino support asking you to provide documents notarized by a lawyer?

I understand that casino needs to verify the identity of his players, but it is not going a bit too far?

Ciao

That's unusual. Which casino is it?

 

[roby1978]

I just know it is a microgaming, I've received this complain from one of my players, and i've already asked me to give me more info on the matter; i believe that the casino has probably reason to make this request, I just wanted to know if anybody ever experienced a request like this...

 

[Swede]

I would also like to know which casino this is. And when you say lawyer, you mean notary public or equivalent, I'm guessing. No gambling institution in history has ever requested documents signed specifically by a lawyer, someone please correct me if I'm wrong here?!

 

[TDTAT]

I just know it is a microgaming, I've received this complain from one of my players, and i've already asked me to give me more info on the matter; i believe that the casino has probably reason to make this request, I just wanted to know if anybody ever experienced a request like this...

I had never heard of any casino requesting anything notorized
by anyone until I read the "Are Jackpot Factory on the stuff" thread here at
Casino Meister.. **keep in mind I do not get out much and have an awful memory
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...-jackpot-factory-group-on-the-stuff-or.22742/

 

[wangpoker]

Eeverest Poker has ever asked one chinese player for notarized ID copy.

 

[mush]

I would also like to know which casino this is. And when you say lawyer, you mean notary public or equivalent, I'm guessing. No gambling institution in history has ever requested documents signed specifically by a lawyer, someone please correct me if I'm wrong here?!

i agree totally. i'm a lawyer and i can assure you we do not possess the power to notarize any document. a lawyer may draft a document that is later notarized by a notary public, but a lawyer doesn't "notarize a document." if a casino does request this, i would immediately stop playing there.

 

[bryand]

i agree totally. i'm a lawyer and i can assure you we do not possess the power to notarize any document. a lawyer may draft a document that is later notarized by a notary public, but a lawyer doesn't "notarize a document." if a casino does request this, i would immediately stop playing there.

With all due respect mush, in which country do you practice? Lawyers routinely notarize signatures in the US although one can be a notary without being a lawyer. I'm sure the casino in question meant to have the signature notarized by a notary public. Regardless, BE CAREFUL because any casino wanting notarized documents may be covering their ass for some reason. IMHO of course

 

[GGW Laurie]

With all due respect mush, in which country do you practice? Lawyers routinely notarize signatures in the US although one can be a notary without being a lawyer. I'm sure the casino in question meant to have the signature notarized by a notary public. Regardless, BE CAREFUL because any casino wanting notarized documents may be covering their ass for some reason. IMHO of course

.........im a notary public in the state of tenneesee and commonwealth of kentucky and im not a lawyer, i agree with bryand they are prolly wanting you to sign in front of a notory and and for them to put a seal on it and sign and date that you are whom you say you are. you can go to any bank, theres usually a notory there and the cost is min. i never charge for this service myself.....also having something notarized makes it a legal doc. i ve never heard of such a request but nothing suprises me much anymore....be leary....laurie

 

[winbig]

.........im a notary public in the state of tenneesee and commonwealth of kentucky and im not a lawyer, i agree with bryand they are prolly wanting you to sign in front of a notory and and for them to put a seal on it and sign and date that you are whom you say you are. you can go to any bank, theres usually a notory there and the cost is min. i never charge for this service myself.....also having something notarized makes it a legal doc. i ve never heard of such a request but nothing suprises me much anymore....be leary....laurie

FWIW, A notary's signature doesn't mean squat. They're only affirming the fact that you signed the paper. There's no way for them to prove without a shadow of a doubt that you're who you say you are.

 

[GGW Laurie]

FWIW, A notary's signature doesn't mean squat. They're only affirming the fact that you signed the paper. There's no way for them to prove without a shadow of a doubt that you're who you say you are.

when i put my seal on something i want to see a drivers lic, ect before i affix my name and my stamp to it and yes it does mean squat

 

[winbig]

when i put my seal on something i want to see a drivers lic, ect before i affix my name and my stamp to it and yes it does mean squat

yes, but if someone "knows someone" who has that stamper thingy, then it doesn't mean squat

btw, what does it take to actually get that stamper thingy? I'm sure if someone was really wanting to pull a scam on online casinos, they could get one and go to town...

 

[RobWin]

Hi

have you ever experienced a request from a casino support asking you to provide documents notarized by a lawyer?

I understand that casino needs to verify the identity of his players, but it is not going a bit too far?

Ciao

This sounds like the beginning of yet another Jackpot Factory thread...jeeze

 

[GGW Laurie]

yes, but if someone "knows someone" who has that stamper thingy, then it doesn't mean squat

btw, what does it take to actually get that stamper thingy? I'm sure if someone was really wanting to pull a scam on online casinos, they could get one and go to town...

well i guess you could do that but i keep records of everything i affix my name and seal with. theres ways around everything we do in life winbig but some of us have morals that we try to live by. i have been bonded and my "stamper thingy" comes from the county clerks office.

 

[RobWin]

well i guess you could do that but i keep records of everything i affix my name and seal with. theres ways around everything we do in life winbig but some of us have morals that we try to live by. i have been bonded and my "stamper thingy" comes from the county clerks office.

Laurie, you think you could maybe get me and Win one of those "stamper thingys"...

 

[winbig]

well i guess you could do that but i keep records of everything i affix my name and seal with. theres ways around everything we do in life winbig but some of us have morals that we try to live by. i have been bonded and my "stamper thingy" comes from the county clerks office.

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to sound like you didn't take your job seriously, or didn't have any ethics!

I just wanted to point out that there's some out there that don't take their job seriously, and will do anything for a buck

 

[vinylweatherman]

This was certainly unusual a couple of years ago, but there have been quite a number of threads here where players have told of being asked to "get the POLICE" to "notarise" their documents.
The POLICE almost NEVER offer this, the most likely place to get this done is a Notary Public, yet this is the one "office" the casinos never seem to mention. They will advise trying a LAWYER, or your BANK if the Police let you down.
Quite often, the casino risk department will want to be able to contact the Notary who signs the document, so they are well aware of the potential for the fraudulent application of a Notary's seal and signature on what is, in effect, a JPEG of GIF image of the actual Notarised document.

Oddly enough, NONE of this rigmarole is actually necessary for most countries. Here in the UK, it is possible to access the applicants history at no less than THREE credit reference agencies. Data is not just held about their credit worthiness, but can be used to verify other important details. These checks are enough for someone to be granted an unsecured loan of up to 30,000 (or a secured mortgage of a much larger amount), but clearly not enough to receive a cash-in of a few hundred bucks from an online casino, or in some cases, even receive back the initial deposit

What is most interesting is that a Notary only checks that the documents are genuine, and not fakes (to the best of their ability), they are not going to be able to determine that the person presenting them is using their "proper" name and address - they could have obtained GENUINE documents (passport, drivers licence, bank statements), but committed a fraud in the application process. IF they were using "a friend's ID" to play a second account, they would get the "friend" to present themselves to the Notary and get the relevant signatures, and then hand them back to the person using their ID to play a second SUB (or more). Decent fraudsters will go to such lengths, and there would be profit in it, innocent players will only be playing their ONE account, and using the correct details, but will be put to additional inconvenience for no obvious reason. As far as the innocent player is concerned, they are being singled out for a substandard level of service that is at variance from that promised and expected (even though the terms allow anyone to be given such a "substandard level of service" purely at the whim of "management")

 

[GrandMaster]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here. Only notaries public can notarise documents (not lawyers, police officers, etc.) The casino may mean certifying a copy of a document, which may be done by solicitors in the UK, or for certain purposes by a larger class of people. The role of notaries public varies from country to country and from state to state, in civil law jurisdictions they have much greater powers, and form a separate branch of the legal profession. In the UK there are very few notaries public and all or almost all are solicitors who do notary work on the sideline. In the US, there are 4.5 million notaries public according to Wikipedia, but they don't need to have legal training and in some states they are not even allowed to notarise copies of documents.

Notarisation doesn't verify the authenticity of the documents, only that they are true copies of the original, or that the person signed the document in the presence of the notary. Forging a notarised document or notarising a fake document is usually considered perjury, which may dissuade some people from doing it.

Notarised documents are accepted in court proceeding in most of the civilised world, although they may need an apostille. (Please don't tell casinos about the apostille because they will start demanding it as well.)

 

[mush]

grandmaster is exactly correct. btw, i practice in the us and i do know what i'm talking about. i agree that there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread. maybe notary publics and the term "notarize" have different meanings in jurisdictions other than in the us, but in this country the purpose of a notary public is to authenticate the SIGNATURE on any document. notarizing a document does not make a document a "legal document" or verify the authenticity of any part of the document except the signature. when a document is notarized, this means that the person who signed the document did so in front of the notary public and presented identification verifying they were the same person as the signature indicates they are. having a document notarized serves no other purpose.

also, ONLY notary publics (certified by the court) can notarize a document, no other person whatsoever can do so. as a lawyer, i have no authority at all to notarize a document. yes, i may draft a will or some other document that must be notarized in order for it to be valid (since the signature must be authenticated), but i could not notarize this document. most attys have paralegals or secretaries who are notary publics in order to simplify things for their clients. you may be directed to a bank or a lawyer to have a document notarized (i've personally never heard of the police) because it is general custom for these businesses, banks especially, to have a notary public on staff. i refer people to their local bank all the time to have things notarized because most provide this service for free to their customers.

i should add, i don't see a reason that an atty couldn't also be a notary public, which would then allow them to notarize documents, but i've personally never known an atty who is also a notary public.

 

[GGW Laurie]

grandmaster is exactly correct. btw, i practice in the us and i do know what i'm talking about. i agree that there seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread. maybe notary publics and the term "notarize" have different meanings in jurisdictions other than in the us, but in this country the purpose of a notary public is to authenticate the SIGNATURE on any document. notarizing a document does not make a document a "legal document" or verify the authenticity of any part of the document except the signature. when a document is notarized, this means that the person who signed the document did so in front of the notary public and presented identification verifying they were the same person as the signature indicates they are. having a document notarized serves no other purpose.

also, ONLY notary publics (certified by the court) can notarize a document, no other person whatsoever can do so. as a lawyer, i have no authority at all to notarize a document. yes, i may draft a will or some other document that must be notarized in order for it to be valid (since the signature must be authenticated), but i could not notarize this document. most attys have paralegals or secretaries who are notary publics in order to simplify things for their clients. you may be directed to a bank or a lawyer to have a document notarized (i've personally never heard of the police) because it is general custom for these businesses, banks especially, to have a notary public on staff. i refer people to their local bank all the time to have things notarized because most provide this service for free to their customers.

i should add, i don't see a reason that an atty couldn't also be a notary public, which would then allow them to notarize documents, but i've personally never known an atty who is also a notary public.

thats pretty much how it goes except that ill add that when a notary affixes a seal and signs and dates a document and that document is filed with the court clerk it does then become a legal doc.

 

[mush]

thats pretty much how it goes except that ill add that when a notaty affixes a seal and signs and dates a document and that document is filed with the court clerk it does then become a legal doc.[/QUOTE]

exactly

 

[bryand]

My 2 cents again....

thats pretty much how it goes except that ill add that when a notary affixes a seal and signs and dates a document and that document is filed with the court clerk it does then become a legal doc.

I realize we may be splitting hairs here but for the record, neither notarization nor recording a document with the county clerk has an effect on its legality. In fact, not even real estate documents are REQUIRED to be notarized or recorded. The sole purpose for recording is to make the document a matter of public record thereby giving notice to all third parties.

I know.....way too much information.

 

[mush]

I realize we may be splitting hairs here but for the record, neither notarization nor recording a document with the county clerk has an effect on its legality. In fact, not even real estate documents are REQUIRED to be notarized or recorded. The sole purpose for recording is to make the document a matter of public record thereby giving notice to all third parties.
I know.....way too much information.

i'm sorry, but this is just not true. are you an attorney? i'm sorry to sound mean, but i really hope you are not.

you are correct in the fact that NO document whatsoever is required to be notarized, however, if you would like for them to be considered real and enforceable, then some documents must be notarized. these types of documents would include anything such as wills, powers of attys, affidavits, contracts, etc. these documents are pertaining to someone giving up/delegating a personal right they naturally hold either now or in the future (wills/pwrs of atty); written sworn testimony (affidavits) - replaces personal testimony in a court of law, thus the signature on that document affirming the person named in the document is the person who actually signed the document; contract - a document that is creating some sort of obligation for each party and again the person who is being bound by this obligation must sign the document affirming they actually agree to be bound by this agreement. again, this signature would have to be authenticated since it would create chaos to allow anyone to enter into contracts in various individuals names - this includes any real estate document concerning mortgages, other liens, etc.

some documents, such as wills, don't have to be recorded with the court, but must be probated upon the death of said person. there is no requirement in the way any will is written, but there are certain requirements if you would like for the court to enforce the document. most wills are notarized in order to eliminate any question of validity and make the probate process as smooth as possible, but there are always the wills that people have kept in their nightstand for 30 yrs that will appear once someone has died and are not notarized. many of these wills are immediately deemed invalid based on the fact that one of the witnesses to the signature of the will is an interested party (family member or beneficiary of will) and this is not allowed. if the will passes this hurdle, then you move on to the next step where you attempt to locate the witnesses and begin the authentication process that way, but that is not a fun process.

then there are documents that may not need to be notarized, but they MUST be recorded/filed with the court. these would include certain documents pertaining to real property, such as a homestead exemption claim.

then there are documents that must be notarized AND filed with the court to be considered valid and these would include way too many things to name, but sticking with the probate/estate theme - documents concerning the opening of an estate for someone who died intestate (w/o a will). there are too many documents to name just in this one instance that have the dual requirement, but one would be a claim against the estate. in order to have a valid claim against an estate such as this, you would have to file a notarized claim with the probate court. now, in the us probate law varies from state to state regarding property division should someone die w/o a will, but this type of document would have the same requirements to be considered valid throughout the us.

if you think you know too much info on this topic, you may need to brush up a little........sorry about that.

 

[bryand]

I'm getting bored with this silly pissing contest but I'll try just once more.

you are correct in the fact that NO document whatsoever is required to be notarized, however, if you would like for them to be considered real and enforceable, then some documents must be notarized. these types of documents would include anything such as wills, powers of attys, affidavits, contracts, etc. these documents are pertaining to someone giving up/delegating a personal right they naturally hold either now or in the future (wills/pwrs of atty); written sworn testimony (affidavits) - replaces personal testimony in a court of law, thus the signature on that document affirming the person named in the document is the person who actually signed the document; contract - a document that is creating some sort of obligation for each party and again the person who is being bound by this obligation must sign the document affirming they actually agree to be bound by this agreement. again, this signature would have to be authenticated since it would create chaos to allow anyone to enter into contracts in various individuals names - this includes any real estate document concerning mortgages, other liens, etc.

Then why doesn't the underlying promissory note have to be witnessed or notarized? And are you saying that the absence of a witness and/or notary necessarily makes a contract invalid?? I would love a copy of that case law for my files.

then there are documents that may not need to be notarized, but they MUST be recorded/filed with the court. these would include certain documents pertaining to real property, such as a homestead exemption claim.

then there are documents that must be notarized AND filed with the court to be considered valid and these would include way too many things to name, but sticking with the probate/estate theme - documents concerning the opening of an estate for someone who died intestate (w/o a will). there are too many documents to name just in this one instance that have the dual requirement, but one would be a claim against the estate. in order to have a valid claim against an estate such as this, you would have to file a notarized claim with the probate court. now, in the us probate law varies from state to state regarding property division should someone die w/o a will, but this type of document would have the same requirements to be considered valid throughout the us.

Affidavits are sworn statements in front of a notary by definition - clearly outside the scope of this issue.

Real estate documents must be written - not oral, and signed by the grantor and witnessed, and are legally binding between the parties but not against third parties unless acknowledged and recorded in the proper jurisdiction.

My original comment is 100% true: "neither notarization nor recording a document with the county clerk has an effect on its legality".

 

[TDTAT]

Hi

have you ever experienced a request from a casino support asking you to provide documents notarized by a lawyer?

I understand that casino needs to verify the identity of his players, but it is not going a bit too far?

Ciao

Hello everyone.. sorry to jump in but I see this thread
could go downhill fast.. I think we can all
agree to the answer of the orginal post/question.

ANSWER: YES It is going too far to ask for a document notorized "by a lawyer"