Do I take this bonus or not??

[Jufo]

...because it gets around the max bet rule

If the max bet is $6.25, you can reduce the number of lines to 6, betting $1 on each. When you do hit the bonus, your free spins are on a $25 bet, which would be against the max bet rule were it triggered with $1 bet on all lines. You could even bet $5 on one line, and have your bonus round playing out at $125 per spin.

This sharply increases the variance in the same way that placing very big bets does.

This game will probably be banned for bonus play, or set to a compulsory max lines like the "feature guarantee" series of slots.

Because free spins play at max lines, your retrigger chances are not reduced by playing fewer lines, even though your chance of initial triggering is sharply reduced. It is a great strategy for beating the $150 for $500 bonus It will fail nearly all the time, but when you hit, it could be VERY big. It should be used with great care where a max cashout is in force.

I see. I was hoping for something better that actually affects RTP and not just variance. Playing fewer than max lines increases the variance on any slot, not just Fruit Frenzy. In fact in the previous slot mathematics thread I gave some numerical values of how much the variance increases as a function of reduced lines (assuming total bet stays constant). It certainly is a useful play when you get a large % bonus and your max. allowed bet size is restricted. 32Red SUB has similar bet size restriction and playing fewer than max lines there might be a good idea as well.

 

[Nifty29]

Yeah that makes sense. So why was VWM worried about 'one of his best slot systems' being exposed then?

......because he is misguided.

Playing 9 lines you have around 1/3 of the chance of actually triggering the free spins than if you played 25 lines, so its really all "swings and roundabouts". It might also be relevant that you can trigger the feature on multiple lines at the same time, which potentially awards more free spins, so you have less chance of a multi-trigger too.

All VWM is doing is increasing the variance. He is not achieving a higher RTP than anyone else and there's nothing secret about it. Considering this is one of the oldest RTG real series slots, you would think they would have caught on by now and banned it from bonuses.......5 years+ is ample time.

FYI.....the feature game is a cannon where you get 3 shots, with 3 bullseyes giving 25 spins down to no hits getting 5 spins. You can see how missing out on many multi-trigger chances by playing less lines can cost you 100's of free spins (and most of the RTP is in those free spins).

I can't see how less lines in this game helps you clear a bonus, but I'm all ears as always (and a wee bit of mouth.....)

 

[vinylweatherman]

......because he is misguided.

Playing 9 lines you have around 1/3 of the chance of actually triggering the free spins than if you played 25 lines, so its really all "swings and roundabouts". It might also be relevant that you can trigger the feature on multiple lines at the same time, which potentially awards more free spins, so you have less chance of a multi-trigger too.

All VWM is doing is increasing the variance. He is not achieving a higher RTP than anyone else and there's nothing secret about it. Considering this is one of the oldest RTG real series slots, you would think they would have caught on by now and banned it from bonuses.......5 years+ is ample time.

FYI.....the feature game is a cannon where you get 3 shots, with 3 bullseyes giving 25 spins down to no hits getting 5 spins. You can see how missing out on many multi-trigger chances by playing less lines can cost you 100's of free spins (and most of the RTP is in those free spins).

I can't see how less lines in this game helps you clear a bonus, but I'm all ears as always (and a wee bit of mouth.....)

OK, it doesn't work. I still got bonus banned for doing it

 

[Jufo]

Thanks for the clarification Nifty. VWM is not completely wrong when he advises you to increase your variance on this bonus offer. After all since it's a sticky, the only sensible thing is to go for a very large win or to bust as quickly as possible. If you bust quickly, say 4 out of 5 times, then your average wagering effectively reduces by a factor of 5 (since you would only complete the WR every fifth time). This effectively reduces the WR from 45X to 9X. Therefore I'd say that this bonus can be +EV but only if there is no maximum cashout (this would ruin the idea of a "big win at the start") and if you are prepared to play with maximum risk, ie. not having extended play time but rather a quick wipeout.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

That's true. Therefore the "average wagering values" posted by Chopley are of no use when the determining the value of a bonus offer. In this case the bonus was 333% so obviously "an average" result is not interesting, but rather the distribution of results at the right end of the curve.

To Chopley: The bonus offer can still be +EV even if the wagering requirement multiplied by house edge is more than the bonus awarded. For example a bonus with 25X WR on slot with 5% house edge is easily +EV even with relatively modest bet sizes.

To determine the EV you need to know expected wagering or average wagering of the bonus. For slots this is not easy to obtain accurately, which is why I use my own tools to determine these values and to measure the value of the offer.

Can you explain this further please Jufo?

I'm always open to learning something new, and whilst the 'divide the bankroll by the house edge expressed as a decimal' calculation has served me reasonably well in the past I'm more than happy to get on board with a better method. (My method does, as I understand it, give a baseline 'this is how much you would wager if you achieved the RTP exactly' figure?)

My maths falls down when I start trying to calculate the effects of variance and higher wagers early on and all that sort of stuff, is this something that you're able to share?

 

[Nifty29]

Can you explain this further please Jufo?

I'm always open to learning something new, and whilst the 'divide the bankroll by the house edge expressed as a decimal' calculation has served me reasonably well in the past I'm more than happy to get on board with a better method. (My method does, as I understand it, give a baseline 'this is how much you would wager if you achieved the RTP exactly' figure?)

My maths falls down when I start trying to calculate the effects of variance and higher wagers early on and all that sort of stuff, is this something that you're able to share?

I'll second that Fish'n'Chops

Jufo....it would be awesome if you shared some stuff. You're welcome to PM if you don't want it in the forums.

 

[Jufo]

Can you explain this further please Jufo?

I'm always open to learning something new, and whilst the 'divide the bankroll by the house edge expressed as a decimal' calculation has served me reasonably well in the past I'm more than happy to get on board with a better method. (My method does, as I understand it, give a baseline 'this is how much you would wager if you achieved the RTP exactly' figure?)

My maths falls down when I start trying to calculate the effects of variance and higher wagers early on and all that sort of stuff, is this something that you're able to share?

I kind of explained it above already. If you play with a high risk so that you bust out quickly, say 4 out of 5 times, this effectively reduces your WR by a factor 5. Your method (divide bankroll by house edge) works only if you would always complete the wagering requirement no matter what. But those times where you bust quickly (and are thus freed from the wagering requirements) have an effect on the numbers.

 

[Jufo]

I'll second that Fish'n'Chops

Jufo....it would be awesome if you shared some stuff. You're welcome to PM if you don't want it in the forums.

I already tried to explain it. There is nothing really secret about it and I have seen it addressed many times here on the forums.

It is just the basic rule: the more you increase variance, the more value you extract from the bonus.

At least almost every advantage player knows this.

 

[Nifty29]

I already tried to explain it. There is nothing really secret about it and I have seen it addressed many times here on the forums.

It is just the basic rule: the more you increase variance, the more value you extract from the bonus.

At least almost every advantage player knows this.

Well I've never really been an AP......an AH at times.....but not an AP.

I always say that you learn something every day if you want to, so thanks Jufo.

So if you're gonna take a bonus, play high variance. I've often seen players say the opposite.....KK is one (although IIRC he changed his mind). It makes sense, as the more bets you make the more you expose your bankroll to the house edge.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Well I've never really been an AP......an AH at times.....but not an AP.

I always say that you learn something every day if you want to, so thanks Jufo.

So if you're gonna take a bonus, play high variance. I've often seen players say the opposite.....KK is one (although IIRC he changed his mind). It makes sense, as the more bets you make the more you expose your bankroll to the house edge.

When KK bets over a pound, he IS going after the variance