Do casinos rig the games?

[mannie2009]

very wise, very nice. but he had tons of grey hair before he was 30! Was always kinda nerdy too...

So far I have escaped both

 

[fiddled]

Yes I have played a number of online casino and yes IMO they are well and truly fixed. Take it from me do not play keep ya money you will only loose it, if you do not believe me then play them you will loose money, you see, learn the hard way if necessary. You will play and see. Roulette for example .every time you pick a line 1st for example.is it just a coincidence but why does the machine come up with everything but the first line ,10 /15 spins every time it just goes opposite (you got it is s fixed that is why) ,,always on the line you bet.come on it is not just 32 red but casino on net....william hill, ladbrokes,,,,,,,club dice..they are all the same man..play them you will see ,,,,,the games are fixed........they clear you out in the end..........there are so many of these sites on the internet some are owned by the same company...........trust me they are a scam.if you are lucky to win then believe me they will get it back it is a scam..they try and get you hooked so you end up chasing your loses, believe me do not learn the hard way, stay clear of these gambling sites they are a fix. They will win everytime it is a global economy that targets people like you and me.....all the gloss and colours and hype.they are a complete fix and i believe there will be the majority on here who believe what i have written. I call on you all to boycott these internet gambling and it will put the boogers out of business, stop giving them our hard earned cash.Spread the word for all our sakes they are a complete fix.

 

[fiddled]

I have just uninstalled the last casino site i am never playing again they are all the bloody same..............................................................
this is my last post remember online casino is fixed IMO...............they win in the end..............................................IT IS AN INDUSTRY,,,,,,,,,,,,
I am not stupid I know what I am saying is right I have studied these sites too long and I am 100 per cent certain they are a scam.............the machine alters to let you win a bit and then it gets it all back.in roulette it does not matter what you bet when the machine enters its cheat mode it will go opposite what you have bet on i.e red or blck and that is why you can get a run of 30 blacks on the trot when u r betting red.The same for betting on a line 1st 2nd or 3rd.you will always find for example when you are betting on 1st line it will not come in machine has entered a cheat mode and knows what you are trying to do by betting on the 1st line it will come up 2nd and third all day...........it is programmed to do you.
when you s[pin the wheel without betting it shares out all the lines because you are not putting money on it spins fairly,once you start betting it goes into cheat mode wins more than it pays out,BELIEVE ME THEY ARE ALL THE SAME.....every online casino I have played does the same and that is why I believe they are a scam and owned by the same companies.
Trust me i am not on here to give you tips on how to play,,no i am here to warn you not to play because you will loose.

 

[fiddled]

Do not trust ONLINE CASINOS BOYCOTT them and stop them from taking ya money, I am sure these threads will be removed because it is the truth

Good day

 

[KasinoKing]

Do not trust ONLINE CASINOS BOYCOTT them and stop them from taking ya money, I am sure these threads will be removed because it is the truth

Good day

Well no, it's not the truth - just your personal opinion.
If I was to come to this forum saying casinos are 100% fair, then people quite rightly would demand evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was the truth.
That's why I have never said that.
I personally believe they are fair, but I can't prove it.

Where is your evidence?
So you lost playing roulette - join the club... it's a VERY big one!

Good day to you sir!
KK

 

[hippo925]

I think casinos and software platforms can cheat, but i'm not saying that they all do. My opinion is that they probably work differently than most people think but that doesn't mean you can't have a good time or a fair chance at winning.

Educating ourselves on how online games work is important so that players know what they are getting and what they are playing. I don't think we have these discussions just to prove casinos cheat, but to have a better understanding of what we are paying for.....fair entertainment.

Any casino game has a house edge that over time will cause you to lose. So there has to be a distinction made between statistical probability and unfair software. Of course, that distinction is not always an easy one. Even more reason to learn as much as you can before you play or contintue to play.

 

[Janek12]

JHV,

I take your point about the fallacy of believing that just because they are wealthy it doesn't mean that they aren't greedy, but we aren't talking about individuals here. I find it hard to believe that large, reputable companies such as William Hill and Ladrokes are doing what this software engineer suggests.

.

I think these companies might not know about this. Why should they? The software provider creates the software; IF the software provider really did put some rigging elements into the software, why should they tell the casino operators?
One of my theories is that since the software providers depend on the casinos for their earnings, they might include some "safeguards" in the software. Otherwise they might dread the day, on which a player hits MAX button on a slot (perhaps even by accident) and get 5 wilds or so... And ruins the casino.
So, to make the business run smoothly, it would be best for the casinos and the software provider IMO, if the casino games COMPLIED WITH THE EXPECTED HOUSE EDGE but also if the software made sure THERE IS NO GREAT VARIANCE FROM THE EXPECTED HOUSE EDGE to safeguard the casinos from huge random wins that could destroy the casino.
In this way, nothing can be detected by the audits as I suppose are done now.
Mind you, it is only a theory, I am not accusing anyone BUT Kimss data and experience seem to support this - if I understand it correctly, he basically says that with the increase of bet, the chance of winning decreases - and IMO this might be to safeguard the casino from huge wins (I apologise for repeating myself ).

So in response to another poster, I would say: Yes, the slots are a licence to print money; but there is still an element of risk there. So the software providers might be tempted to remove that risk, IMO...

 

[BlueSky]

I think these companies might not know about this. Why should they? The software provider creates the software; IF the software provider really did put some rigging elements into the software, why should they tell the casino operators?
One of my theories is that since the software providers depend on the casinos for their earnings, they might include some "safeguards" in the software. Otherwise they might dread the day, on which a player hits MAX button on a slot (perhaps even by accident) and get 5 wilds or so... And ruins the casino.
So, to make the business run smoothly, it would be best for the casinos and the software provider IMO, if the casino games COMPLIED WITH THE EXPECTED HOUSE EDGE but also if the software made sure THERE IS NO GREAT VARIANCE FROM THE EXPECTED HOUSE EDGE to safeguard the casinos from huge random wins that could destroy the casino.
In this way, nothing can be detected by the audits as I suppose are done now.
Mind you, it is only a theory, I am not accusing anyone BUT Kimss data and experience seem to support this - if I understand it correctly, he basically says that with the increase of bet, the chance of winning decreases - and IMO this might be to safeguard the casino from huge wins (I apologise for repeating myself ).

So in response to another poster, I would say: Yes, the slots are a licence to print money; but there is still an element of risk there. So the software providers might be tempted to remove that risk, IMO...

Thats a plausible argument, but it doesn't explain why a poker room would cheat its players.

 

[gdbruyck]

Can software scan the table?

in roulette it does not matter what you bet when the machine enters its cheat mode it will go opposite what you have bet on i.e red or blck and that is why you can get a run of 30 blacks on the trot when u r betting red.

Is it really technical possible that software can scan the table in less than a few seconds, and detect what color you bet on?

 

[Janek12]

@ BlueSky: I was not referring to any poker room. I know nothing about poker. I have no theories about poker rooms.

 

[Jasminebed]

IMO most of the "cheating" at online casinos happens in the way they handle player withdrawal requests, not in the software itself.

Long periods with money sitting in accounts, playable or reversable. Free money that makes it impossible for you to withdraw having taken more bonuses than deposits. "Processor problems", false bonus abuse claims, impossible ID requests and the ilk.

I'll bet that for every PAB that reaches Maxd, there are 10, 15 or 20 players that just give up on getting their money and play it back. Not all online players belong to CM.

Since all B&M slot players are most familiar with losing without leaving the casino with any funds, it can be a long time before you even know you are dealing with a rogue.

This is not to say that casinos do not change payout percentages without informing players. But even with lower payouts, I believe the major players (and some of the minor ones) offer a random game. Weighted reels can be random. Pseudorandom NG are random enough for me. True RNGs come in a variety of forms, radioactive decay only being one of them. Some true RNGs have very pronounced and extended lulls.

If you believe otherwise, it is a wise decision for you not to gamble online, or in fact gamble at all.

 

[hippo925]

IMO most of the "cheating" at online casinos happens in the way they handle player withdrawal requests, not in the software itself.

Long periods with money sitting in accounts, playable or reversable. Free money that makes it impossible for you to withdraw having taken more bonuses than deposits. "Processor problems", false bonus abuse claims, impossible ID requests and the ilk.

I'll bet that for every PAB that reaches Maxd, there are 10, 15 or 20 players that just give up on getting their money and play it back. Not all online players belong to CM.

Since all B&M slot players are most familiar with losing without leaving the casino with any funds, it can be a long time before you even know you are dealing with a rogue.

This is not to say that casinos do not change payout percentages without informing players. But even with lower payouts, I believe the major players (and some of the minor ones) offer a random game. Weighted reels can be random. Pseudorandom NG are random enough for me. True RNGs come in a variety of forms, radioactive decay only being one of them. Some true RNGs have very pronounced and extended lulls.

If you believe otherwise, it is a wise decision for you not to gamble online, or in fact gamble at all.

Excellent point. Though i am interested in how software works for online sites, the issue of payments and delays is a much more serious issue because it can so often be used as a tactic and in so many deceptive ways.

One thing to keep in mind though.... if a casino can be dishonest enough to use delay tactics on withdrawals..... or make using a bonus a scientific enigma..... or make untrue claims.... or etc.....
How are they still completely trustworthy in regards to their software?

Also, gambling online CANNOT be compared to gambling in a B&M. Imo, it is more accurate to say that if you don't trust online games, don't play online. I think we have to keep in mind during these discussions that online gambling is not regulated at all...NONE. It is simply a matter of trust.

Put another way... those who think online software is not rigged have the same amount of evidence as those who think online games are rigged. Yet, with no real evidence, most people seem to think that even with NO regulation, online casinos are the most honest industry. Weird....

Like i said... it's a matter of trust.

 

[mannie2009]

Is it really technical possible that software can scan the table in less than a few seconds, and detect what color you bet on?

Very easily

its just a simple condition check, done in a fraction of a second

 

[gdbruyck]

Casino Swiss: Not Recommended

a casino can be dishonest enough to use delay tactics on withdrawals.....

Indeed, I had this experience with Casino Swiss (www.scasino.com/ )

Here's some extracts from their emails to me:


1/ "This is Erica from the Support Team. We have received the following documents: - ID- Proof of address We have saved these documents in a secured file. Gilbert, unfortunately, the front copy of your ID did not appear clear enough for us to accept the document as valid. We kindly request to send us clearer copy of your ID."

2/ "Thank you for choosing S Casino. This is Lhynne from the Support Team. We have received the latest copies of the documents you sent (ID and CreditCard Statement). However, the copies of the ID is not clear enough to verify the details."

 

[Deeplay]

Do not trust ONLINE CASINOS BOYCOTT them and stop them from taking ya money, I am sure these threads will be removed because it is the truth

Good day

Er think we get the message

 

[Grey]

I think these companies might not know about this. Why should they? The software provider creates the software; IF the software provider really did put some rigging elements into the software, why should they tell the casino operators?
One of my theories is that since the software providers depend on the casinos for their earnings, they might include some "safeguards" in the software. Otherwise they might dread the day, on which a player hits MAX button on a slot (perhaps even by accident) and get 5 wilds or so... And ruins the casino.
So, to make the business run smoothly, it would be best for the casinos and the software provider IMO, if the casino games COMPLIED WITH THE EXPECTED HOUSE EDGE but also if the software made sure THERE IS NO GREAT VARIANCE FROM THE EXPECTED HOUSE EDGE to safeguard the casinos from huge random wins that could destroy the casino.
In this way, nothing can be detected by the audits as I suppose are done now.
Mind you, it is only a theory, I am not accusing anyone BUT Kimss data and experience seem to support this - if I understand it correctly, he basically says that with the increase of bet, the chance of winning decreases - and IMO this might be to safeguard the casino from huge wins (I apologise for repeating myself ).

Completely agree with you.
We see only the results of the audit.
However, what is meant by the audit?
Audit of code or just payouts?
How can we check if it is possible to change the results after the bets are placed, do the results of the game depend on the size of bets.

Here is a simple example, if manipulation is possible, the casino will allow you to win with small bets and the player will lose more often with high bets, because under such conditions, the risks of casinos are significantly reduced.
Therefore, we cannot verify the fact of independence of the results from the size of the bet.
In this case, the casino will have payouts for auditors according to the rules of games.

 

[hippo925]

Completely agree with you.
We see only the results of the audit.
However, what is meant by the audit?
Audit of code or just payouts?
How can we check if it is possible to change the results after the bets are placed, do the results of the game depend on the size of bets.

Here is a simple example, if manipulation is possible, the casino will allow you to win with small bets and the player will lose more often with high bets, because under such conditions, the risks of casinos are significantly reduced.
Therefore, we cannot verify the fact of independence of the results from the size of the bet.
In this case, the casino will have payouts for auditors according to the rules of games.

i understand what you are saying. It is my understanding that most audits tend to confirm or evaluate either the casino's payback percentage or integrity of the random number generator. I don't believe i've ever heard of any audits on the "codes" or "algorithm" of a particular software because of the proprietary nature of the software.... though i may be wrong. If that is the case, there would not be any evaluation of the fairness of the software itself, just whether the casino is paying out what it claims or that the number generator is working properly. Obviously, you can have a payout percentage audited and a random number generator confrimed, but still have "questionable" software with "unique" programming or algorithms. A simple one would be an alogrithm that decreases wins when bets are increased while maintaing an "acceptable" payback percentage.

Of course, the counter argument would be as to why would anyone go through all this trouble considering the built in house edge? The big one that comes to mind would be to protect smaller casinos from going bankrupt just because of one player who gets really lucky with a big bet. Though i find it harder to imagine that it would be worth it for the "bigger" companies....

 

[Janek12]

Therefore, we cannot verify the fact of independence of the results from the size of the bet.

I think Kimss believes he verified the DEPENDENCE of the results on the size of the bet.
But I am no expert in this field and I do not know whether his sample of results is really statistically valid.
But I must say I trust his word for this and I think his findings are quite disturbing, to say the least.
It would be interesting to see this matter pursued further by him but I completely understand and agree with his desire to break away from casinos altogether and I wish him success in this.

And IF it is really true that as the bet increases, the chance of win decreases, it would be a brilliant move on the part of the casinos IMO. Who would want to spend dozens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands to make a statistical point? So the evidence might never be gathered.

And also, IF Kimss is right, then it is in no conflict with KasinoKing's argument that the slots can't be rigged because he has been winning long-term. KasinoKing might have been winning for the very reason that he is a low-roller and does not place high bets often.

I think it all adds up but, as I always say, it is only a theory!
BUT - to repeat a point I mentioned in another thread - WHY DON'T ALL THE CASINOS HAVE RANDOMNESS CONTROL?
I don't understand it completely but I trust another well-established member of CM forum who explained it the other day and his conclusion was that casino with this mechanism CANNOT CHEAT. So why don't all the big software providers make an end to the speculations and don't introduce randomness control, too???!!!

 

[Wisenheimer]

I don't understand it completely but I trust another well-established member of CM forum who explained it the other day and his conclusion was that casino with this mechanism CANNOT CHEAT.

Wouldn't randomness control have some of the same problems? If I understand it correctly (and I'm not sure I do), then the payouts couldn't be controlled, as the spin for slots was generated before the bet, but the code could still be tampered with, for lower percentages, no?

 

[marshy]

I'm not 100% sure how affiliates work but i think they get all the results from their players from sign ups. If this is true and how it works, i would like to hear from affiliates if they have results that don't look right for a casino over many many hands.

Where i have my suspicion casinos could be cheating is sign up bonuses where you have to enter a bonus code. Maybe these codes could then trigger different RNG's.

I guess the only people who really know are the casino operators.

 

[KasinoKing]

I'm not 100% sure how affiliates work but i think they get all the results from their players from sign ups. If this is true and how it works, i would like to hear from affiliates if they have results that don't look right for a casino over many many hands.

I promote well over 100 casinos and I don't know ANY who provide this level of information to their affiliates.
All we see is how much they deposit & withdraw - we don't even know who the players are.

Welcome to the forum!
KK

 

[Grey]

So why don't all the big software providers make an end to the speculations and don't introduce randomness control, too???!!!

Good question, Janek12.

I am not sure that Randomness control is not compatible with other softwares.

 

[susanjbo]

From my experience if i play Megamoola at casino (A) casino(b) And casino (C) the win combinations can be very different. As that game is what i play 90% of the time i can say without any doubt that the combinations of wins for each of A<B<C) casinos are very different. Doesnt mean they are rigded, but in my opinion set for payouts based on the % of players at those individual casinos. many factors id say are considered for each casino, the amount of members who play that game at that casino, the wagering amounts ect ect.

 

[hippo925]

Wouldn't randomness control have some of the same problems? If I understand it correctly (and I'm not sure I do), then the payouts couldn't be controlled, as the spin for slots was generated before the bet, but the code could still be tampered with, for lower percentages, no?

As i understand it, in theory, the randomness control we are talking about (betvoyager) would provide the most "random" sort of online gaming possible without the use of true random number generators, which online casinos don't have by the way. By using a well known and trusted algorythm, this system is essentially letting you "jump" around the map of results determined by a pseudo random number generator.

Now here's the interesting part: assuming all these online casinos use similar software, the pseudo random number generator creates a long string of results that are, as i have always suspected, PREDETERMINED using a mathematical formula that fits a certain payback percentage. The betvoyager website actually explains this.

But what they have done is to let a player jump around on this predetermined string of results adding more "randomness" to your gameplay. It is extremely interesting.

Keep in mind, over the long term, the expected payback percentage will still be met, but you would never have to worry that you are "caught" in a forced downswing since you can change your position on the "map" of results.

As an example:

a pseudo random number generator determines that your next 10 spin results are 0 , 0, 0, 2x bet, 3x bet, 5x bet, 0, 0, 1x bet, 50x bet............

after the third spin ( 0, 0 ,0) you decide to "jump" to another set of 10 spins because you "ain't feeling it".

It is a bit of dry reading, but i recommend anyone interested in learning how slots really work (in betvoyager's case, but i assume other casinos too) to read up on the betvoyager website.

I can only think of a couple of reasons why other casinos don't do this....and none are good.

 

[cbrodley]

Blackjack: Cards that count.

Cards that can count: A session of 104 single handed, Blackjack hands played online on 23rd August was analysed. The chart below shows the distribution of cards at various counts for both the Dealer and the Player. The bias in the value of cards drawn by the Dealer is obvious from top right to bottom left. The value of the cards clearly becomes smaller as the count increases. No such bias is evident in the Players cards at the bottom of the chart.

The relevant spreadsheets are attached.

Refer to attached *.xlsx spreadsheet, sheet 2.

A chi squared test on the total of the Dealers cards returns a result of 0.976, pretty close to a perfect fit, while a similar result for the Players cards is 0.702. So statistically the Player cards are the less good fit yet the bias in the upper half of the attached chart is evident to the eye. On a count of 14 the Dealers average card value was 7, on a count of 15 it was 5 and, on 16, it was 4. Pretty smart.

The following is taken from a Session of 520 hands on 25th August. The Chi Squared results for this sample are below. The first figure in a pair is the number of cards the second figure is the shi squared result.
.All .Dealt Drawn
Dealer 1450 0.115 1040 0.300 412 0.149
Player 1373 0.012 1040 0.334 335 0.002
Total 2823 0.043 2080 0.314 747 0.048

All these results are well below an average fit and the result of 0.043 for a total of 2,823 cards needs some explanation. The results for the Players Drawn cards are especially bad. The results returned are actually worse than removing all the Aces, Kings and Queens from a deck and replacing them with 2s, 3s and 4s. It is even more surprising when continuous shuffling should, theoretically, minimise variance because the impact of discards is minimised. The only results that look acceptable are those for the first two cards dealt; to me the remainder look suspect.

Here are the drawn cards that gave the result of 0.0026 (1:400) from the table above:
Ace K Q J 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 Total
21 28 24 34 21 31 20 21 11 41 20 35 28 335

The attached Spreadsheet page 3 show the detail.

The Player drew on a count of 15 in 33 hands, won 3 and was dealt twelve 3s and eight Queens. The Chi Squared result for this distribution is 3.81E-08 or, odds of 0.0000000381 or 1: 26,315,700. Clearly, whatever controls are in place to ensure a fair game are so broad as to be meaningless. These figures are undoubtedly subsumed into a total for the player or for all players by which time their significance disappears.

Without access to the source code (and the ability to make sense of it) it is impossible to say what is happening but it is impossible to believe that this is random. The totals may look fine but the details look anything but fine to me. If any part of the game is discretionary and not random then the game is no longer fair and should not be called Blackjack.

There are people on this board with experience of online systems and fair gaming audits. Would they care to comment ?

Cheers

CGB