Do casinos rig the games?

[gdbruyck]

Many people claime that they have lost all of their money thanks to the fact that online casinos rig their software. However, if this is true, there is a paradox.

Indeed, I have noted that casinos place different percentages on specific games that account for the contribution to meet the wagering requirements.

Typically slots wagers will count for 100% of their bet value towards the play through requirement but other games, especially roulette, may NOT count at all (or count for very little towards meeting the requirement).

So, if the online casinos have the intention to rig their online casino games and, if they benefit from rigging their games, why then the bonus disclaimer that roulette is excluded from the bonus offer?!

 

[KasinoKing]

So, if the online casinos have the intention to rig their online casino games and, if they benefit from rigging their games, why then the bonus disclaimer that roulette is excluded from the bonus offer?!

You make a very good point!

I think the crux of the matter is, most of these people who claim casinos are rigged are just bad losers.
I've been winning from online casinos consistently for 8+ years - how could I do that if they were rigged?

My personal opinion is that the reputable software companies offer truly random games.

Welcome to the forum!
KK

 

[hippo925]

Many people claime that they have lost all of their money thanks to the fact that online casinos rig their software. However, if this is true, there is a paradox.

Indeed, I have noted that casinos place different percentages on specific games that account for the contribution to meet the wagering requirements.

Typically slots wagers will count for 100% of their bet value towards the play through requirement but other games, especially roulette, may NOT count at all (or count for very little towards meeting the requirement).

So, if the online casinos have the intention to rig their online casino games and, if they benefit from rigging their games, why then the bonus disclaimer that roulette is excluded from the bonus offer?!

Roulette offers too much of a risk that a player would abuse the bonus by continually making even money bets such as red, black, even, odd (just under %50 depending on 1 or 2 zeros.) since it is fairly close to flipping a coin, any "rigged" software would be fairly easy to detect on a game like roulette. Nearly impossible to tell if online slots "cheat" because of the way they may be programmed, dynamic weighting, etc.

And yes, online slots and poker software CAN and DID (and probablly still does) cheat. That is a FACT. It has been shown, it has been proven. But we are putting our trust in the major software providers that they do not behave in this manner.

It is completely a matter of trust which is why people tend to stick with big software companies.

P.S. And KK is the only one i know that consistently wins at slots so i wouldn't put too much weight on that! .... Just because my mother's dog accidently swallowed my daugter's gumball, doesn't mean that all dogs poop candy.

 

[Grey]

There is only one reason for roulette to be excluded from the list of games for wagering the bonus requirements. You can bet on red and black and meet the bonus requirements with no risk

 

[lots0]

Been said before...

Why bother to 'rig' the software, when the house already has the advantage and there are sooooo many bad/uneducated gamblers out there that are willing to 'give' their money to the casino???

 

[KasinoKing]

There is only one reason for roulette to be excluded from the list of games for wagering the bonus requirements. You can bet on red and black and meet the bonus requirements with no risk

Really?
How do you do that - fill the zero with your chewing gum...?

KK

 

[casinojack]

Really?
How do you do that - fill the zero with your chewing gum...?

KK

Also note some casino allow but use the term, "no cancellation bets" for this reason,and games such as Sic=Bo sports betting etc...

 

[zap987]

Really?
How do you do that - fill the zero with your chewing gum...?

KK

$18 on each of black and red, $1 on 0.

 

[KasinoKing]

$18 on each of black and red, $1 on 0.

(I hope that was supposed to be a joke!)

KK

 

[jacobite]

This is one of my pet peeves. Time and time again you here people say that onlines are rigged and they never play at them, they've lost all their money etc. Here is a something that was posted at a gambling forum I'm a member of:

Advice from a Software Engineer

Hi Folks,

First of all let me introduce myself. I'm new here and I would like to give you my humble opinion about online gambling on roulette (Sorry for my bad english). I'm graduated in Computer Science and System Engineer and in the last 8 years I've been developing software for several companies, including online casinos. As you already know there're several types of RNG. On the past almost all the online casinos were using Pseudo Random Number Generators (learn more in wikipedia). PRNG output numbers based on known seeds (normally a date/time) and it's major flaw is that over time and with historical data you can predict what's the next number that the RNG will output. Since this is a major flaw all the online casinos today moved away from PRNG to True Random Number Generators (if you're curious search Lava Rand in google ). TRNG outputs numbers that isn't correlated with each other, which means that historical data means nothing. a TRNG can output for instance the number 4 indefinitely. So said this I'm kind of risking my reputation with the information that I'll give you (I'll not tell names). Most of the available online casinos doesn't play fair (as you guess it). Online casinos are using Fixed True Random Number Generators, which means that if the casino is losing money they'll manipulate the draw number to not let you win. Most of the time you're not sensible enough to notice that because the casino cannot win all the time so win from time to time. What you must know is that online casinos stipulates a bar of gains (for month for instance) and never let the casino drop below that line. So when the casino is winning money it progressively let you win some hands/money but in the end if the casino is losing you'll eventually lose all your money, because they'll fix the output. Mind that what I'm saying is a very risk statement but I know what I'm talking about. Almost all online casinos doesn't play fair for roulette. So I'm sorry if I break your dream of getting rich gambling in online roulettes. I'm a gambler too and I'm very interested in Cryptography and RNG. So if you're the kind of person (like me) that loves to gamble I suggest that you do it in real casinos. Why ? Simple croupiers can be studied, you can learn how the croupier spin the ball, how many times the ball spin after outputing a number and you can adjust your game to guess the numbers.

I hope that you're clever enough to take my advice in consideration and don't let yourself be fooled by online casinos. I've participated in developing gambling software and I know what I'm talking about.

Thank you for the attention and time.

Yes there are rogue casinos out there, but if you stick to the reputable ones (having checked the list here) you won't get ripped off. I've been playing online for years and have never seen any evidence of cheating.

 

[JHV]

This is one of my pet peeves. Time and time again you here people say that onlines are rigged and they never play at them, they've lost all their money etc. Here is a something that was posted at a gambling forum I'm a member of:

Yes there are rogue casinos out there, but if you stick to the reputable ones (having checked the list here) you won't get ripped off. I've been playing online for years and have never seen any evidence of cheating.

I believe you should always stay alert - as a general rule. Bryan can't continually meet up personally with management every time an Accredited Casino makes a Personnel Change who could bring in some policy which results in changes that many people would see as tantamount to cheating or theft, in the worst cases.

You'll be a Hell of a lot safer sticking only with the Accredited List on CM. But you won't be 100% safe. All I'm saying is: "Trust. But verify." or something to that effect - always stay alert and on the lookout for signs nefarious types are afoot.

There are some common-sense facts that will always be true. When you have money, a lot of people want to take it from you. Some will attempt this challenge fairly, through the sale of goods or services or entertainment - but many just simply do not care how they get it from you. They just care that they do. Always look for signs of *those* types of people and you'll be ok, I think.

i.e. "Do what I say, not what I do." (obv)

 

[chuchu59]

Given the above, I dare say that some casinos will rig the games when they have cashflow issues so that their short-term problems will be solved. Then it's back to normal and they will then declare that their games arent rigged which is true at that point in time.

 

[JHV]

Given the above, I dare say that some casinos will rig the games when they have cashflow issues so that their short-term problems will be solved. Then it's back to normal and they will then declare that their games arent rigged which is true at that point in time.

Yes, I usually bite my tongue but you are 100% valid in pointing out just one of the literally dozens of fallacies in the "they make so much, why would they cheat?" argument you hear oh so very often on gambling boards.

I've caught my Nan (!) cheating at cards when no gambling or money or anything was involved. A multi-millionaire once stole a $100 chip from my poker stack when he thought I wasn't looking. Anyone recognise this girl?

Don't fall into logical fallacies like the "I'm safe cause they are wealthy!" ( = "they make so much, why would they cheat?) logical fallacy. Even the wealthiest people will occasionally steal from you or scam you - perhaps that is how they got their wealth in the first place? Never underestimate the power of human greed.

Just an interesting side comment for those who are might not be aware - the oldest scam in the book is to pretend to be incredibly wealthy when you're targeting a mark for a financial scam.

I consider myself pretty cynical and and 'alert' - and I got done COLD by that classic scam. Just so hard to believe someone driving an almost brand new $400,000 Lamborghini every time you see him over a period of weeks and who you've had dinner with in their multi-level mansion can be after your money. But when, post-scam, you learn the Lamborghini was 'borrowed' for a month from a repair shop where the guy's friend told the owner the parts they needed to get it running were delayed in transit from Italy - and that the mansion he 'owned' was actually owned by the wealthy employer of a PA (his girlfriend), who was supposed to be house-sitting for them whilst on holiday - boy, do you feel stupid. And by 'you' - of course I mean 'I'. Sigh. And I literally had dozens of 'reads' that this guy was a little 'off' - but we are (all of us, imo) suckers for first impressions and for the magician's sleight of hand distraction trick.

 

[steinhaug]

There is only one reason for roulette to be excluded from the list of games for wagering the bonus requirements. You can bet on red and black and meet the bonus requirements with no risk

Obviously you havn't played "scare the ball" on the roulette table for real money! Start filling the table with all spots and leave a few open, you will have a great time and experience the game of "scare the ball".

You will be amazed on how often the green zero appears when you do not need it!

 

[jacobite]

JHV,

I take your point about the fallacy of believing that just because they are wealthy it doesn't mean that they aren't greedy, but we aren't talking about individuals here. I find it hard to believe that large, reputable companies such as William Hill and Ladrokes are doing what this software engineer suggests.

It's not as if they don't have the advantage in the first place, would they risk their reputations for the sake of a making more $$$ when the chances of being rumbled are almost 100%? A lot of online casinos are transparent about their RNG/Payouts and you can download the RNG outcomes and payout info. If what this guy suggests is actually going on then it wouldn't be long before you got some strong statistical evidence that there was foul play, and isn't that the job of the third party auditors?

Granted, there are rogue casinos around, but these are in the minority I believe, and more so these days with the increased competition.

 

[steinhaug]

It's not as if they don't have the advantage in the first place, would they risk their reputations for the sake of a making more $$$ when the chances of being rumbled are almost 100%?

First of all, depending on how you rigg the game it could be impossible to detect it. How do you detect a rigged game? You do not need to do much, all you need to do is ensuring that the player has a bigger chance of winning because he has had a bad run - and ensuring the player do not get a good win because he has already won much. The casino is in a huge favour doing this since usually we lose, and making those wins when you need it gets you back in the game again. The house always win, and the player enjoys the game since it's not completely dead all the time.

Is it normal to have lucky streaks for 1000 of spins whatever slot you wager, and 1000 of spins of losing streaks? Most of us playing online some years have experienced those strange times when we just can't lose! I am not referring to a great win, but series of great wins which never seems to stop.

Maby this is just random, I do not know - but after million of spins it seems strange to me those streaks I have experienced online a few times. Usually it happends on every account sometime, however never again - atleast not for me.

 

[gdbruyck]

excluded games

In the above post The Software Engineer was quoted saying: "Almost all online casinos doesn't play fair for roulette."

But then again, how to explain that many online casinos exclude certain games from their bonus offer? Not only roulette but baccarat and craps are also among the games that are excluded.

 

[WagerWitch]

"Just so hard to believe someone driving an almost brand new $400,000 Lamborghini every time you see him over a period of weeks and who you've had dinner with in their multi-level mansion can be after your money. But when, post-scam, you learn the Lamborghini was 'borrowed' for a month from a repair shop where the guy's friend told the owner the parts they needed to get it running were delayed in transit from Italy - and that the mansion he 'owned' was actually owned by the wealthy employer of a PA (his girlfriend), who was supposed to be house-sitting for them whilst on holiday - boy, do you feel stupid. And by 'you' - of course I mean 'I'. Sigh. And I literally had dozens of 'reads' that this guy was a little 'off' - but we are (all of us, imo) suckers for first impressions and for the magician's sleight of hand distraction trick."


Dang...

You need to move out where people have no freaking clue who you are.

 

[steinhaug]

But then again, how to explain that many online casinos exclude certain games from their bonus offer? Not only roulette but baccarat and craps are also among the games that are excluded.

I believe this to be simple math. Even a rigged system with streaky strains of cards/numbers would still be much easier to complete wagering requirements in 2 minutes compared with slots, which will surely drain your bank.

The lesser chances of losing, the lesser chances of losing your bank during wagering requirements. Slots you need huge amounts of spins, with huge amounts of possible losses.

13 reds in a row in roulette is possible, however highly unlikely. 13 dry spins on a slot happends all the time!

The simple fact that statistically slot players lose theire pot makes this the best way to go for a casino.

My thought!

 

[JHV]

But then again, how to explain that many online casinos exclude certain games from their bonus offer? Not only roulette but baccarat and craps are also among the games that are excluded.

To trick you into thinking low HA games are legit?

Little trick called "cover play" - learned it in my Advantage Player days back in the day. Gotta think outside the box yo!

You need to move out where people have no freaking clue who you are.

Well I'm safe now because I'm poor

But yep, that particular instance was very unfortunate for me, imo. As the guy actually setup the sting with other targets in mind - I just walked into it (i.e. was introduced to him) by going to a party I didn't even want to be at, but my arm was pulled (literally) by a close friend.

Met the guy, creeped me out a *tiny* bit - just too friendly, you know what I mean? Also, he called everyone 'playa' - like "Wat up my playa?" Creepy imo.

I had a random read that he wasn't in the kinds of business he was in (although he'd obviously done his research) - and, also dressed very well, he didn't sound upper class at all (I told myself to stop being a snob when I thought that). But it wasn't so much snobby as the fact that rich families in Philippines like ALWAYS send their kids to very high-class schools, and they talk very differently. It was a damn good read and I should have backed myself.

Anyway, I felt stupid for even doubting his stories about business exploits when we're riding in his car and when he picked up the tab "I insist, I insist!" kind of thing a few times. Later, I learned this (spend a little on silly stuff to appear not only rich but generous) is another golden "hint" that you might possibly be a mark. I think this lesson actually saved me quite a bit down the track.

Any lingering doubts were dismissed at dinner with friends at this amazing place. Just amazing mansion. Had a few more tiny "hmm?" reads before I got done, but I did and then found out heaps of people we knew all got burned as well - some of them days before - thanks for warning me guys! And the worst thing is I had an incredibly rich guy (owner of MegaUpload / MegaVideo / MegaRotic actually) vouch for the short-term loan - and he reneged but I think he thought I was mixed up in it all cause he got burned really bad I think. That doesn't excuse the renege on the vouch though - just explains it.

Last I heard, the guy was in a world of hurt over scamming some Senator and I *think* when you scam Senators in Manila, you really starting to play with fire - this is what I'm told, anyway. It's not my world, I don't really know - I know life is cheap there, REALLY cheap.

You gotta kinda respect the play. That's what I told myself to get over it, anyway. Doing the same thing with InterCasino

 

[gdbruyck]

a rigged game?

How do you detect a rigged game?

Casino operators can edit software source code. In that sense, if they are not being regularly audited, fraud can go unchecked.

I had a few nasty experiences with Internet casinos. At one online casino I was steadily winning small amounts. As long as my winnings were modest, the roulette was truly random. But when I started to win big, I received the rather disappointing connection to server lost "error message". Once I connected to the server again, I began to loose all the winnings and my bank roll as well!

At another casino, my winnings were at a certain moment (after six logins, i.e., play sessions) two-thirds of my deposit. The next play session (thus after the seventh login) I lost all my winnings and my deposited money after 145 roulette spins. Red came up 93 times and Black only 52 times!!

 

[mannie2009]

Casino operators can edit software source code. In that sense, if they are not being regularly audited, fraud can go unchecked.

I had a few nasty experiences with Internet casinos. At one online casino I was steadily winning small amounts. As long as my winnings were modest, the roulette was truly random. But when I started to win big, I received the rather disappointing connection to server lost "error message". Once I connected to the server again, I began to loose all the winnings and my bank roll as well!

At another casino, my winnings were at a certain moment (after six logins, i.e., play sessions) two-thirds of my deposit. The next play session (thus after the seventh login) I lost all my winnings and my deposited money after 145 roulette spins. Red came up 93 times and Black only 52 times!!

I highly doubt Casinos can edit the modules of source code.

I'm a Software Engineer by trade, any software is distributed in compiled source code. These cannot be edited. When compiled they are given a hash and a date stamp so they cannot be tampered with.

Now, they may however have additional configuration applications which may
let them adjust live settings on the software. Off course this is easily possible
but I highly doubt it.

Although when software is involved most things are possible.
Mannie

 

[hippo925]

I highly doubt Casinos can edit the modules of source code.

I'm a Software Engineer by trade, any software is distributed in compiled source code. These cannot be edited. When compiled they are given a hash and a date stamp so they cannot be tampered with.

Now, they may however have additional configuration applications which may
let them adjust live settings on the software. Off course this is easily possible
but I highly doubt it.

Although when software is involved most things are possible.
Mannie

LOL, i'm not a software engineer... but i'm pretty sure you are. Back when i was really curious about this stuff, i contacted a friend who is a software engineer for an aerodynamics company. (Hush hush stuff) I think he tried to explain to me what you are saying here. The funny part is... after this long discussion, he ended with a similar disclaimer: "but with sofware, anything is possible." I think that's what makes all this so interesting for me.

 

[mannie2009]

LOL, i'm not a software engineer... but i'm pretty sure you are. Back when i was really curious about this stuff, i contacted a friend who is a software engineer for an aerodynamics company. (Hush hush stuff) I think he tried to explain to me what you are saying here. The funny part is... after this long discussion, he ended with a similar disclaimer: "but with sofware, anything is possible." I think that's what makes all this so interesting for me.

He he a wise man by the sounds of it.

 

[hippo925]

He he a wise man by the sounds of it.

very wise, very nice. but he had tons of grey hair before he was 30! Was always kinda nerdy too...