ATTN: Casino Rep Demo play not the same as real - GameArt slots

ladyhawke

Meister Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Location
Here, There, Everywhere.
@slot_zombie
I'm going to need more foil hats after this debacle. So much for integrity, independent testing and UKGC requirements that are constantly cited on the forum.. I'm talking about the provider not the casino.

@goatwack
So like you said, so much for this mythical testing and auditing of games to ensure their 'fairness'

@SlotGrinder
Exactly and this is why this company needs to be punished properly otherwise the integrity of the games and casinos as a whole is in question . And you know how players are already in constant suspiscion about whether the games are fair or not so finding genuine evidence of deception just adds fuel to that fire

@Jasminebed
So the provider initially lied to VS, as well as attempting to fool players.

This situation is very worrying, as how can we now be sure that other providers are not also masters of deception, particularly as - in the case of GameArt - the "independent testing and UKGC requirements" have been ridden roughshod over.

Statistically speaking, where there is one, there are usually others.

Unfortunately this really is grist for the tinfoil brigade's mill.
 

gottoslot

Newbie member
Joined
Sep 30, 2017
Location
Belgium
I remember a thread where one the gameart representatives were promoting their own slots, and if you pressed some combination of keys the bonus/free spins would trigger.. anyone remembers this?

so what about amatic?
 

Steviedoo

Meister Member
MM
Joined
Oct 30, 2015
Location
South
I remember a thread where one the gameart representatives were promoting their own slots, and if you pressed some combination of keys the bonus/free spins would trigger.. anyone remembers this?

so what about amatic?

....dan says he is testing these along with all other games at vs.
 

bebo67

Ueber Meister
PABnonaccred
MM
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Location
Ontario Canada
@slot_zombie
I'm going to need more foil hats after this debacle. So much for integrity, independent testing and UKGC requirements that are constantly cited on the forum.. I'm talking about the provider not the casino.

@goatwack
So like you said, so much for this mythical testing and auditing of games to ensure their 'fairness'

@SlotGrinder
Exactly and this is why this company needs to be punished properly otherwise the integrity of the games and casinos as a whole is in question . And you know how players are already in constant suspiscion about whether the games are fair or not so finding genuine evidence of deception just adds fuel to that fire

@Jasminebed
So the provider initially lied to VS, as well as attempting to fool players.

This situation is very worrying, as how can we now be sure that other providers are not also masters of deception, particularly as - in the case of GameArt - the "independent testing and UKGC requirements" have been ridden roughshod over.

Statistically speaking, where there is one, there are usually others.

Unfortunately this really is grist for the tinfoil brigade's mill.
I think playngo is very deceptive. Just my opinion. If I wasnt so far in Gemix, world 2005, I would be giving them the big finger.
 

slotter999

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Location
UK
@slot_zombie
I'm going to need more foil hats after this debacle. So much for integrity, independent testing and UKGC requirements that are constantly cited on the forum.. I'm talking about the provider not the casino.

@goatwack
So like you said, so much for this mythical testing and auditing of games to ensure their 'fairness'

[/QUOTE]

Just to reiterate what has been stated elsewhere - Gameart do not appear to be licensed in the UK so there is no non-compliance with UKGC rules..
 

ladyhawke

Meister Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Location
Here, There, Everywhere.
@slotter999: "Just to reiterate what has been stated elsewhere - Gameart do not appear to be licensed in the UK so there is no non-compliance with UKGC rules."

Nikantw made a very good point in the Lockinlove thread regarding casinos and rtp, e.g. "Of course, but since lockinlove (OP), me and many others are not from UK, what Malta and Gib say is important for us."

It is beginning to seem that if you are not in the UK, and don't fall under UKGC rules, then there is nothing to stop game providers from shafting us regarding RTP, demo games in 'developer mode', and possibly a raft of other things I am too tired to think of.

If this is the case, what good is the MGA for non-UK players? How and what protection do they offer us if available games are exempt from rigorous testing and verification?

And 'no non-compliance with UKGC rules' still doesn't seem to stop casinos from sending out SOW requests to non-UK/non-EU residents. Double standards or what?
 

Carglame

spammer
Joined
Feb 21, 2018
Location
amycoleman@protonmail.com
This is a good experience, thanks for sharing. It seems to me that this is a matter of chance, but it is better to check. Who has the opportunity, do it:) I've already had experience with similar studies with a lot of slots, but now I'm not ready for it. My last successful shitholecasinos gave me a lot of emotions and money, but after that I decided to get distracted from this and now I do not know where to start except buffalo.
 
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trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Hi Jasmine,

Olle from BitStarz here, just throwing in my five cents. But before I do that, I do recommend you speak
directly to a game provider if you have any questions regarding RTP of a certain game, or if you have any complaints,
but I can defend the fact that demo mode and real money mode have the same RTP.

One thing that needs to be remembered when we're talking about slots is math, and we don't need to dig
very deep to get a pretty good fundamental understanding about RTP in general.

When we're discussing the Return to Player, we need to remember that it's based on a couple of billion game rounds,
and the longer you spin on a game, the closer you're going to reach the theoretic payout of the slot. I like the idea
of using a coin toss to explain it. We all know that it's 50-50 chance to show heads or tails (unless there's some highly skilled coin-toss guy out there),
but it's not impossible to get 4 heads in a row or 4 tails in a row. That doesn't mean the coin-toss is rigged, no, because the longer you
toss the coin, the closer you're gonna get to the 50% tails, 50% heads.

The RTP of a game in demo mode and for real money is absolutely the same, and even if you spun the slots all day,
and compared demo to real money play, I'm sad to say that it doesn't prove anything mathematically. One could
use the same argument for a/b-ing the result of playing 2 slots with the same RTP, math and stakes being the same,
and you get different results. It doesn't mean that one is rigged and pays out more than the other.

Sometimes it's important to zoom out from the individual experience and look at it from a collective, especially
when we're talking about a theory that is based on a large data. Your individual casino RTP varies, players
who play exactly the same games in the casino don't end up with the same RTP for that game, some will
get higher, some will get lower, but it evens out.

I hope that makes a little more sense.

Olle, BitStarz

With all due respect Ollie that is an absolute pile of BS. See my AMA thread if you are unsure of how much some of us (me included know about maths). You are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the wrong people. This stock answer might wash with a regular player but on CM you have people far more knowledgeable than you give us credit for.

That answer was devoid of fact about this issue and was basically a flip-off. You should listen to Dan who has already confirmed your answer is utter rubbish.
 

BitStarz

Accredited Casino BitStarz Representative
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Location
Malta
Hi guys,

I've never-ever in my life heard of a game provider using different RTP on their demo games and their real money games, if that's the case as Videoslots
is saying, that's total news to me and I'll apologize for that. It's totally unacceptable.

My point is, however. That if you make a some spins in real money mode and in demo mode, and jump to conclusion based on your short game session that
one has a different RTP than another, that's not the right way to go about it. Not my intention to school the community and give a fu-reply, so I'm sorry if it came across that way.

The way to find out would be to go straight to the horse's mouth, which would be the game provider.

Olle
 
Last edited by a moderator:

suchfun

Banned User
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Location
canada
Hi guys,

I've never-ever in my life heard of a game provider using different RTP on their demo games and their real money games, if that's the case as Videoslots
is saying, that's total news to me and I'll apologize for that. It's totally unacceptable.

My point is, however. That if you make a some spins in real money mode and in demo mode, and jump to conclusion based on your short game session that
one has a different RTP than another, that's not the right way to go about it. Not my intention to school the community and give a fu-reply, so I'm sorry if it came across that way.

The way to find out would be to go straight to the horse's mouth, which would be the game provider.

Olle


just stop lol
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Hi guys,

I've never-ever in my life heard of a game provider using different RTP on their demo games and their real money games, if that's the case as Videoslots
is saying, that's total news to me and I'll apologize for that. It's totally unacceptable.

My point is, however. That if you make a some spins in real money mode and in demo mode, and jump to conclusion based on your short game session that
one has a different RTP than another, that's not the right way to go about it.
Not my intention to school the community and give a fu-reply, so I'm sorry if it came across that way.

The way to find out would be to go straight to the horse's mouth, which would be the game provider.

Olle

Oh for crikey's sake! This isn't just one player playing a few hundred spins, but TENS of CM members playing the demos and ALL reporting back that they simply couldn't lose on them, features dropping in like snowflakes and making significant gains right from the start. We are all singing from the same hymn sheet here. Sometimes events will even open up the eyes of those that don't want to see which was the case here. There's a forum full of slot players here with huge combined experience who automatically know when something's wrong, when coincidence is surpassed!

Whatever your views, and however we knew, the facts came out and we were all correct - the GameArt provider confirmed it. It looked like a turd, smelled like a turd and surprise surprise! it was a turd. :rolleyes:

Just be thankful these games aren't UKGC-licensed or audited and you don't offer them to UK players, or your license would have been smoke and GameArt's too.
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
Hi guys,

I've never-ever in my life heard of a game provider using different RTP on their demo games and their real money games, if that's the case as Videoslots
is saying, that's total news to me and I'll apologize for that. It's totally unacceptable.

My point is, however. That if you make a some spins in real money mode and in demo mode, and jump to conclusion based on your short game session that
one has a different RTP than another, that's not the right way to go about it. Not my intention to school the community and give a fu-reply, so I'm sorry if it came across that way.

The way to find out would be to go straight to the horse's mouth, which would be the game provider.

Olle

Good to see that you read at least a part of it.

We as players will not be taking serious by any game provider and if they as in this case actually lie about having the same RTP then what good will that do?
You are of course responsible too since you don't want to decieve your players or...?

It sounds like you should spend some in time here to learn a few things since you obviously don't have enough knowledge to school us :)
 

suchfun

Banned User
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Location
canada
Oh for crikey's sake! This isn't just one player playing a few hundred spins, but TENS of CM members playing the demos and ALL reporting back that they simply couldn't lose on them, features dropping in like snowflakes and making significant gains right from the start. We are all singing from the same hymn sheet here. Sometimes events will even open up the eyes of those that don't want to see which was the case here. There's a forum full of slot players here with huge combined experience who automatically know when something's wrong, when coincidence is surpassed!

Whatever your views, and however we knew, the facts came out and we were all correct - the GameArt provider confirmed it. It looked like a turd, smelled like a turd and surprise surprise! it was a turd. :rolleyes:

Just be thankful these games aren't UKGC-licensed or audited and you don't offer them to UK players, or your license would have been smoke and GameArt's too.

nwb5lnx4wn3z.jpg
 

dpp00

Experienced Member
Joined
May 19, 2012
Location
uk
oh well no surprise here for me been playing demo modes for years and years and it was perfectly obvious
the difference between demo and real play to me anyway, and ill happily eat something horrible if there's not several more providers
suddenly admitting (lets be nice and call it enhanced play) between demo and real play, as usual thank god for the meister scouts here :thumbsup:
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Hi guys,

I've never-ever in my life heard of a game provider using different RTP on their demo games and their real money games, if that's the case as Videoslots
is saying, that's total news to me and I'll apologize for that. It's totally unacceptable.

My point is, however. That if you make a some spins in real money mode and in demo mode, and jump to conclusion based on your short game session that
one has a different RTP than another, that's not the right way to go about it. Not my intention to school the community and give a fu-reply, so I'm sorry if it came across that way.

The way to find out would be to go straight to the horse's mouth, which would be the game provider.

Olle

Olle - just because you've not heard of it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened - and to dismiss the obvious because "you've never heard of it" is crazy.
If i dismissed every fault report on one of my games because "i hadn't heard of that before" i'd be sacked pretty damn quickly... it's a very poor excuse.

We are all aware of volatility - and if you look at any of my answers to the tin-foil hatters who claim everything is rigged, you'll see i'll defend volatility to the hilt.
However, never in the history of ever, has someone been able to turn a $500 starting balance in to $15,000 every single time they load the game. That is NOT volatility, that's demo mode.

Also, it is NOT our responsibility to contact the software provider, and if i sent your response to my contacts at the UKGC i know exactly what their answer would be...
I hope you are not the PML holder for bitstarz, because that attitude would make you lose it. It's your licence. Your responsibility. Not the players.

I suggest you seriously consider whether you ever use that stock answer again - i understand that when people are saying "i've put £100 in and not had a feature" or the like that of course you can use volatility, but if you had spent just ten minutes playing the game, you'd have seen it was obviously in a demo mode, and not "real maths".
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Amatic only offers free play for a very limited number of rounds. Makes it difficult to pursue any relevant number of spins. I've lost more than a few starting rounds on Amatic, but even if I get "ahead", it quits before I can see how long before.

Glad VS is going to ask for a closer look. As there is no practical way for us to do so.

And Ollie, at no point did I ever feel the real mone y play was gimped. When I first visited your site as a provider of GameArt games, I saw one of you big winners was up there twice with Thunderbird.

Wonder if how demo play had any influence on her big betting play? I'm not accusing your of anything beyond being unaware that the game provider has misinformed you as well.

Now that you are aware of the issue, show us you are good guys too.

I'm not sure who said it was not a requirement for Malta and Curacau, but I would at least hope that a casino would post a notice that "this is an enhanced demo version of the game" or some such.

I'm totally fine with going to GameArt's site to get a bonus round every 25 spins.

Not as okay if I'm at a site where the expectation is the same as real.

I thank all our members who helped compile more than a few thousand spins.
 
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