Current Thoughts on Player Situation with DOJ actions - should US players Worry?

[WagerWitch]

I'd like to start a discussion (yeah, I know - been awhile... )

I'd like everyone's THOUGHTS --- FACTS --- and overall impression of what is going on currently.

• Should US Players worry?

• What happens IF players start getting arrested?

(Do you think they will?)

• Have we created any groups yet to help out people - should this happen?

I'd like to start discussing this now --- even if it is conjecture... Not to scare people - but to actually start thinking about the implications of what is going on.

We can't remain sleeping sheep and just ignore it - thinking it will all go away- and I don't know if there is actually ANYTHING that we can -as US citizens - do to halt these actions...

But - literally - what's going to happen from here?

So please - feel free to list what you think - what you know... how you feel...

 

[WagerWitch]

Anyone?

Any ideas - thoughts - comments?

 

[Webzcas]

•Should US Players worry?

The only concern players should have, is that if they have not filed any gambling wins they have had in their tax returns. The latest bust involved an under cover payment processor. So I would imagine the IRS is going through all payments with a fine tooth comb.

Oh and players should be extremely wary from this point on in using ewallets, as with Quicktender and eWallet Express before, they could find their monies stuck in no mans land for quite a while.

•What happens IF players start getting arrested?

I don't think this will happen. After all the players are not actually breaking the law in most states by gambling online. The payment processors and the gambling companies are the ones in danger.

I guess possibly affiliates promoting and targetting US players could possibly be targetted, but who knows. So far webmasters have not had any action taken against them.

•Have we created any groups yet to help out people - should this happen?

Other than the PPA, nothing substantial that I have heard of.

 

[WagerWitch]

Thanks Webzcas - I appreciate that.

I've read the legal papers - and I don't know that it actually only targets the banks.

On a second reading someone pointed out to me - that it is the wire process - however - the person initiating the wire process would be the player - asking for it.

The banks would get slapped for approving it - but the player initiated it - so if it went through - then the player could be responsible.

I do NOT know how true that is - and I'm guessing that it is completely open to interpretation.

But it was something that gave me food for thought...

What do you think of that particular interpretation? Do you think it holds any credence?

 

[Webzcas]

What do you think of that particular interpretation? Do you think it holds any credence?

Interesting point. But as we are seeing the Doj are going after the head of the snake so to speak. It is more lucrative, has bigger results and effects everything else, down to the player who wants to deposit a couple of dollars to enter an online poker tournament.

The only thing players have to be concerned about is that they have declared any winnings they have withdrawn back to their bank account from playing online. But I am not a lawyer and I do not know the US legal system.

The next logical step would be I guess if the DOJ are not satisfied with shutting down all the US facing operators and payment processors, would be to go after the large affiliates who actively promote to American players. But that hasn't happened yet and again, is actually marketing in breach of the UIGEA?

Just after the UIGEA was passed, Spearmaster wrote for one of my sites about what it entailed. Times like these, his voice of reason is sorely missing as I am sure he would have a very sound view on what is happening now.

Ted wrote this some four and half year ago:

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[WagerWitch]

Spearmaster is SORELY Missing - no doubt.

He was one of the first people we all hooked up with and started talking in the forums. What - a freaking decade plus ago? He was definitely a rock and is really missed.. I took a few months out and came back to find him and one of my better friends online gone... It was quite a shock... it took me awhile to digest it and then get back into the swing of things. You always expect people to be there - and for it to remain the same. Sadly, it does not.

Good Article - have we had any legal interpretations?

Or any real legal advice yet on this?

Do we have any lawyers who want to pro bono an interpretation?

 

[all4greed]

I would be surprised if players from my banned state had legal actions taken against them. Just a few years ago a radio dj was interviewing some woman that won six figures in an online poker tourney. She didn't seem to be concerned about banned gambling and who knows if she paid any taxes. I remember thinking, WTH? Why are you talking about this on the number one most listened to radio station and giving your real name?

There were tv and radio ads promoting online poker playing up to 2009/2010. Go figure...

 

[WagerWitch]

6 figures... wow.

Would it were that I were the woman...

 

[LandowM]

Doubtful players will get arrested

If the U.S. land-based casinos are using their $$$ to influence politicians, DOJ, etc. they're doing it with the intention of future profits. If the DOJ was to arrest & punish U.S. online gamblers, the new U.S. online casinos will make less money.

If the DOJ imprisoned U.S. online gamblers, it would drastically shrink the market size for the casinos, as all their best customers are locked away.

If the DOJ fines U.S. online gamblers, the U.S. casinos lose again. Their best/most frequent customers would have lighter bankrolls, as well as more negative experiences with online gaming.

If the U.S. casino corporations are being smart with their money, they are influencing the DOJ to both maximize their share of the online gaming market (by eliminating the competition & further barriers to entry), and maximize the size of the online gaming market (more individuals free to gamble online & more $$$ per gambler).

So, to the extent that the U.S. casinos are in control, expect individuals won't be punished for online gaming & for their existing bankrolls (eWX, QU/UMW) to be shipped back into the U.S. ready to spend online.

The DOJ can make its $$$ by seizing billions of dollars from foreign companies, whilst returning the hundreds of millions of $$$ beloning to U.S. citizens. The IRS will still get 35% of that money back within a few years. The worry is the DOJ try stealing every penny they can get for themselves in the short-run.

I'm just hoping Harrah's, Steve Wynn & others will through enough $$$ at this to get the DOJ in line, & out of the rogue pit.

 

[Webzcas]

Regards players, they are safe:

The Baltimore-based federal prosecutor who has spearheaded the latest round of internet gambling domain & bank account seizures, US Attorney Rod Rosenstein, has reaffirmed that unless players live in a state with specific laws forbidding their participation in gambling, they are not the target of enforcement actions.

Link Removed (invalid URL)

 

[lots0]

Ya they don't DARE to go after players.... yet.

Once they start going after players and putting them in jail there will a huge uproar and people will get very angry.. and that is what the politicos are really really really afraid of.

Right now the Government is working in the shadows, because they know if the light of day were to shine on their current activities... their jobs and maybe even their freedom would be at risk.

 

[Jasminebed]

Most gamblers do not show a profit. Poker is a different beast. The IRS expects income, whether "legally" obtained or not to be declared. If you've shown a profit in any given year and failed to report that income, you might have problems if account information is shared.

But merely gambling online? I think if all the gamblers marched themselves down to their local precinct to surrender, they wouldn't have a clue what to do with them! Would take years just to build the jails to accommodate everyone!

Affiliates may well have different concerns, but I don't think the average player needs to be concerned about being jailed.

I wouldn't think that charges and fines levied, or plea-bargained to fines would be totally out of the realm of concern.

 

[FreeDomme]

I'm curious as to why the candor of discussion of legality has only really come to be now that the fox may well BE in the hen house. I maintain that the situation for players is no different today than it has been for several years.

But what I found disturbing about the radio show was the implied threat that the Federal Government might somehow be sharing information with State's Attorneys General. So "yet" could well be an operative word for some.

Perhaps if we all renounce our sins and subjugate ourselves to mighty Caesars (hotels and online casinos) we will be forgiven.

 

[lots0]

I'm curious as to why the candor of discussion of legality has only really come to be now that the fox may well BE in the hen house. I maintain that the situation for players is no different today than it has been for several years.

But what I found disturbing about the radio show was the implied threat that the Federal Government might somehow be sharing information with State's Attorneys General. So "yet" could well be an operative word for some.

Perhaps if we all renounce our sins and subjugate ourselves to mighty Caesars (hotels and online casinos) we will be forgiven.

There have always been open candid discussions here at CM about the legal aspects of online gambling, this is not something new.

In regards to sharing info between government agencies.. the Homeland Security Act that the Congress just renewed for the next 4 years... REQUIRES agencies to share info about all us 350 Million Terrorists that live in America.

 

[WagerWitch]

Basically - in my humble opinion tho - they have LITERALLY classified Gambling Online as an act of Terrorism.

And based on that - does that mean - we as gamblers are then - somehow connected to funding Terrorists?

I don't believe that we are - but what I believe and the legal law that politicians believe may be an entirely different world.

I lived in the world of Law Enforcement for over 23 years - and have come to the fateful realization that Law is more crooked than most criminals.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The best move for US players is surely to "keep your heads down" so as not to come to the attention of any future drive that may target players.

As with illegal file sharing, there may be a few "example" prosecutions in order to scare away others from continuing, but the sheer number of "offenders" would make it impractical to start taking action against everybody. It would end up COSTING the government money, at a time when ordinary citizens are being told to "tighten their belts". Eventually, some mainstream media will "out" the story of so many $billion having been spent pursuing an activity which is catered for in many states in B & M form just because the internet was used instead, and will ask the question why this money was available to be spent on such an inconsequential matter when more important things are not done because "we don't have the money for it".

This happens in the UK when it is revealed that large sums of money were available for some "crazy" niche project, yet we are told our schools can't be repaired, hospitals have to be closed, and care for the vulnerable has to be cut because the "government is broke".

US players should try to get their money out of the online gambling market so they don't risk losing it, and take a break whilst this UIGEA storm rages.

It's election time soon I think (2012?), and from now on, the Obama administration will NOT want to embark on anything that would blow up in their faces next year, having benefited from being in office when Bin Laden was finally taken out of action - a very high profile success.

In the UK, it is believed by many that success in the Falklands war helped the Thatcher government win it's second term in the 1980's as it was a major triumph shortly before we went to the polls.
Unlike the US, the party in power gets to choose the election date provided it is 5 years or less from when they were voted in. This allows them to "rig" things in their favour by choosing to go to the polls early after a triumph, or if they think something nasty might be coming along shortly.
This is a somewhat "corrupt" system, as it always offers the current administration an advantage.

 

[Casinomeister]

As discussed at the Dublin conference, the DoJ is politically motivated - players are not, and probably never will be of any interest of the DoJ.

Areas of interest:
easy prosecution of high value targets (read $$$$)
Sportsbooks
fraud and money laundering (again - high value targets)

Going after players would be problematic since there are no federal laws prohibiting placing wagers on line...at least not yet

 

[WagerWitch]

As discussed at the Dublin conference, the DoJ is politically motivated - players are not, and probably never will be of any interest of the DoJ.

Areas of interest:
easy prosecution of high value targets (read $$$$)
Sportsbooks
fraud and money laundering (again - high value targets)

Going after players would be problematic since there are no federal laws prohibiting placing wagers on line...at least not yet

So Bryan -

Perhaps - wealthier players?

Or those who may have won?

I realize that there may not be rules against the playing itself - however the wire transaction does have rules - and with the PLAYER initiating the transaction - this could be interpreted as being a part of the process... etc. etc.

(I'm doubting it on a personal level - but since it was brought up to me - the concept does have merit to consideration.)

 

[lots0]

...I lived in the world of Law Enforcement for over 23 years - and have come to the fateful realization that Law is more crooked than most criminals.

I also spent most of my working days in the employ of the government carrying a gun.
After many years, I came to the same conclusion as you, that is why I work for myself now.

Once the people that enforce the 'law' decided that the ends justify the means... the "law" lost all real meaning. imo.

 

[EndofEsau]

If the U.S. land-based casinos are using their $$$ to influence politicians, DOJ, etc. they're doing it with the intention of future profits. If the DOJ was to arrest & punish U.S. online gamblers, the new U.S. online casinos will make less money.

If the DOJ imprisoned U.S. online gamblers, it would drastically shrink the market size for the casinos, as all their best customers are locked away.

If the DOJ fines U.S. online gamblers, the U.S. casinos lose again. Their best/most frequent customers would have lighter bankrolls, as well as more negative experiences with online gaming.

If the U.S. casino corporations are being smart with their money, they are influencing the DOJ to both maximize their share of the online gaming market (by eliminating the competition & further barriers to entry), and maximize the size of the online gaming market (more individuals free to gamble online & more $$$ per gambler).

So, to the extent that the U.S. casinos are in control, expect individuals won't be punished for online gaming & for their existing bankrolls (eWX, QU/UMW) to be shipped back into the U.S. ready to spend online.

The DOJ can make its $$$ by seizing billions of dollars from foreign companies, whilst returning the hundreds of millions of $$$ beloning to U.S. citizens. The IRS will still get 35% of that money back within a few years. The worry is the DOJ try stealing every penny they can get for themselves in the short-run.

I'm just hoping Harrah's, Steve Wynn & others will through enough $$$ at this to get the DOJ in line, & out of the rogue pit.

I think this is much much bigger then the US trying to come online. There are many other countries banning online gambling as well. Including several casino groups pulling out of other places besides the US. I suspect that if land based were to come online it would have done so many years ago. Besides Im willing to bet. Behind some of these online casinos. Major B&M have their hands in them.

I feel America is heading down a path of troubling time never seen before. This is economy (USD) is near its end. You have major factors that taking place in America. That most people are completely unaware of. A new world and new beginning perhaps??? Who knows time will tell.

 

[takethemoney]

I'm not taking any chances

I uninstalled all but two casinos from my computer about a week ago. One I kept is Bodog and the other Slotastic. Frankly, I don't see myself even attempting to deposit or cashout until the legal mess subsides and gambling becomes legal in the US. I have a couple I can play for fun if I want to. On my wishlist is that the DOJ would take down the Virtual group, Mighty Slots and all the other rogues. (actually, the world community should do this)

 

[WagerWitch]

Thank you everyone for communicating with me about this.

It's a hard discussion - and one that I think requires us to think beyond the right now... Which, as gamblers, it is very difficult to do.

What I believe and what is law may be two different things.

I'm waiting to see if Bryan would like to comment on my questions earlier - to see if he has heard any actual LEGAL commentary.

Is there anyone out there who knows the law regarding this - and if so - can you comment?

If it pleases the court - if you'd like to be anonymous - and create a new account - if you can back up your legal dissertation or commentary - I don't think Bryan would mind in this case (if you could advise him) that you're making an account specifically for that purpose.

I know that some people still feel that gambling online is something to be hidden.

I long ago shed my identity to the world - both online and off - so I have no fears (other than whatever is crawling under my bed at night... and is going to grab my foot that I hang over the edge. *grin*)

Anyhow - if someone is an attorney and can genuinely say - for sure, one way - or another on the legal standing - I'd like to hear it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Like I said - all thoughts - ideas - opinions - facts and otherwise - are very welcome...

 

[grex23]

Thank you everyone for communicating with me about this.

It's a hard discussion - and one that I think requires us to think beyond the right now... Which, as gamblers, it is very difficult to do.

What I believe and what is law may be two different things.

I'm waiting to see if Bryan would like to comment on my questions earlier - to see if he has heard any actual LEGAL commentary.

Is there anyone out there who knows the law regarding this - and if so - can you comment?

If it pleases the court - if you'd like to be anonymous - and create a new account - if you can back up your legal dissertation or commentary - I don't think Bryan would mind in this case (if you could advise him) that you're making an account specifically for that purpose.

I know that some people still feel that gambling online is something to be hidden.

I long ago shed my identity to the world - both online and off - so I have no fears (other than whatever is crawling under my bed at night... and is going to grab my foot that I hang over the edge. *grin*)

Anyhow - if someone is an attorney and can genuinely say - for sure, one way - or another on the legal standing - I'd like to hear it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Like I said - all thoughts - ideas - opinions - facts and otherwise - are very welcome...

I believe legalized online gaming should be the rule.

However there are a scant few casinos left with legitimate pretenses accepting USA customers at this time and those are drying up as well.

The remaining lot of casinos will eventually be ended that are accepting USA bets, in fact 3 Dice doesn't seem to have any options left for USA fund transfers according to postings on here.

The remaining Casino's that accept customers will eventually stop processing payments or face issues as well and money can be tied up at any time so I wouldn't do business with any of these players as of now.

With land based casinos you can gamble without hassle and get paid out on the spot if you win. Would I like open and transparent and an online casino where it is legitimized? Absolutely. But it hasn't happened yet.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I think this is much much bigger then the US trying to come online. There are many other countries banning online gambling as well. Including several casino groups pulling out of other places besides the US. I suspect that if land based were to come online it would have done so many years ago. Besides Im willing to bet. Behind some of these online casinos. Major B&M have their hands in them.

I feel America is heading down a path of troubling time never seen before. This is economy (USD) is near its end. You have major factors that taking place in America. That most people are completely unaware of. A new world and new beginning perhaps??? Who knows time will tell.

It could have something to do with the fact that almost all licensing jurisdictions for online gambling are minor "tax haven" states, and the industry has grown large enough to get the major countries worried about the loss of tax revenue this internet trend is having.
This could be tied to the current political moves to rid the world of these tax haven states, and come to a binding international agreement on cross border commerce and fair tax income for those countries that supply the consumers, rather than the suppliers being able to use the internet to avoid taxation. Big businesses may also be applying pressure because they are at a disadvantage when trying to compete with offshore "internet only" suppliers.

This could end with the internet, or at least commerce on the internet, being governed by a new set of international treaties.

The simplest solution might be to tax the purchase of goods or services, rather than the profit of the supplier, a bit like our VAT system. International agreements would need to be in place to ensure the countries hosting these online suppliers collect the taxes on behalf of the customers' countries, and forward it to the various treasuries on a regular basis.

There is currently a concerted effort to bring about an end to the secretive offshore bank accounts and "trusts" that the rich use to hide capital and investment income from the taxman.

 

[FreeDomme]

It could have something to do with the fact that almost all licensing jurisdictions for online gambling are minor "tax haven" states, and the industry has grown large enough to get the major countries worried about the loss of tax revenue this internet trend is having.
This could be tied to the current political moves to rid the world of these tax haven states, and come to a binding international agreement on cross border commerce and fair tax income for those countries that supply the consumers, rather than the suppliers being able to use the internet to avoid taxation. Big businesses may also be applying pressure because they are at a disadvantage when trying to compete with offshore "internet only" suppliers.

This could end with the internet, or at least commerce on the internet, being governed by a new set of international treaties.

The simplest solution might be to tax the purchase of goods or services, rather than the profit of the supplier, a bit like our VAT system. International agreements would need to be in place to ensure the countries hosting these online suppliers collect the taxes on behalf of the customers' countries, and forward it to the various treasuries on a regular basis.

There is currently a concerted effort to bring about an end to the secretive offshore bank accounts and "trusts" that the rich use to hide capital and investment income from the taxman.

This 'thing' occurred either because e money moved through the wrong accounts or there is a casino out there, quietly touted by long time affiliates, that is funding terrorism by no fault of their own. I won't beat around the bush much longer and I hate to spill the beans because this casino has been perfect for any one who played there. But those dirty birds took over their country and the beach is surely Win A Day.