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Cryptologic UK style 'Fruit' slots, beware

Discussion in 'Online Casino and Poker Complaints - old section' started by martinrossbrown, Apr 14, 2005.

    Apr 14, 2005
  1. martinrossbrown

    martinrossbrown Dormant account

    Location:
    Birmingham
    As this is an international forum, I'll give a quick intro.

    In the UK, the Vegas style slot, where you press a button and are paid out purely on the combination, is a rarity, confined to casinos and gambling arcades. The more popular style of gambling machine is the UK style fruit machine. This is less dependent on winning combinations of fruit, than on winning on sub-games, that involve collecting items on board-game style tracks, or making numbers on the reels add up to certain numbers. It seems to be a win-win, the players enjoy exploring the sub-games and the operators experience greater play of people finding out these features.

    All well and good?? Not exactly. Because of the 'fun' nature of the games, the game designers have, legally, been able to cheat their players by offering gambles that they have no chance of winning. Examples of this include making the players move on the 'game over' space on the feature, or, more evil, offering the player a hi-lo gamble. The resulting number always busts them. This has been proved by people ripping game ROMs, pausing the game at one of these gambles, and playing both hi and lo, always losing.

    For background on this phenomenon, see You must register/login in order to see the link. . Recently there has been a change in the voluntary code of conduct, machines now have the legend 'This machine may, on occasions, offer the player a gamble that they have no chance of winning'. Not ideal, but a start.

    Onto the online bit. I've had a test run at Intercasino and UKBetting on low stakes, on their games Fruit Fight and Super Sideshow, to see if the hi/lo gambles (where you predict if the next number is higher or lower without the same number reappearing) were random. It's a small sample, but some trends appear...

    Number: 2 or 11 (1 in 11 chance of failure) 7 gambles, 2 failures
    Number: 3 or 10 (2 in 11 chance of failure) 15 gambles, 8 failures
    Number: 4 or 9 (3 in 11 chance of failure) 12 gambles, 7 failures

    This is a small sample, but the trend seems to be a >50% chance of failure where the true odds are massively in your favour. Some other posts here reveals that other players are of this opinion.

    This suggests to me that the results are 'rigged' in some way. This is a very worrying development to me, I've only played the conventional slots in the belief that there is a RNG deciding if I win, and that if they have a 'gamble feature' (e.g. red/black cards) this is a true 50/50 gamble.

    Another feature which I noticed towards the end of the test session, was something I've noticed on real-life fruities. On those, there is a tendency if, after losing a multitude of gambles, for the machine to be 'happy' and to start paying out higher amounts, presumably to keep the payout above the machine's minimum.

    On my test run, the potential payout over time resembled a rising stockmarket graph. Initially after given 1,2 coin wins, which I gambled for my research and lost, the machine then started to give me greater prizes, which again, I hi/lo gambled and then lost at what was felt to be a predetermined level.

    I appreciate this is a more contentious point, and would need for the experiment to be repeated several times, but I am disgusted at the possibility that an online casino icould possibly corrupt a winning chance depending on past results. To use a comparison, we might like the idea of the roulette popping a few winning numbers if we're down on our luck, but I'm sure we wouldn't like it if it did the converse when we're on a roll....

    In conclusion, if there's from Cryptologic/Wagerlogic about, could they answer these questions:

    1) Is the hi/lo gambles on your 'Fruit Machines' a true, random gamble according to the implied odds?

    2) If the answer to the above question is 'No', is it right and proper that you should feature this non-random game amongst other games (e.g. Blackjack) which is RNG dealt and is dependent to a certain extent to players' gambles to success or failure? And do you think that it is misleading to customers to not list any disclaimers on the

    3) If a player has lost previous games, does this have an effect on the prize size of previous games. And do you think it's fair that a casino should pay its games out only after considering the player's previous losses.


    I'm asking this question as I believe that this non-random behaviour is a spur to create problem gamblers attempting to beat the unbeatable.
     
  2. Apr 14, 2005
  3. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Crypto introduced these slots, calling them 'UK pub style slots'.
    And that is exactly what you have.
    Anyone who has played UK fruit machines a lot (like me :( ) knows darned well there is absolutely nothing random about the Hi/Lo, chances of getting a win, or a feature.
    The only random thing, is if you happen to be playing the machine when it decides it is going to pay out!

    So I don't understand what you are complaining about.
    They are exactly what Crypto say they are: Rigged pieces of shite.

    It's sort of ironic that you posted when you did, because last night, under the influence of alcohol, I had a little bash on one at 25c a go, just to remind myself how awful they are. Got about 20 features in 100 spins - all of which busted out at less than $3.00, of course. But then I fell off my chair when a $100 win dropped straight in! :D
    Screenshot to follow... (this evening)

    I still think they're crap though. But I would like to hear from anyone who has ever won ANYTHING on the 'Super Heavy Weight Feature' - every time I got it, it went on 'lose' on the first move. :(
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2005
  4. Apr 14, 2005
  5. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    Perhaps you could calculate the probability of this?

    p = 2/11, n =15, q = 9/11, so standard deviation = sqrt((18*15)/121)

    Giving that for the 3 and 10s alone, the chance of the sample coming from a fair game is 4808-1. In other words, with 99.98% certainty, the game is not fair.

    If you took the other numbers as well, the chance that the game is fair grows even smaller. It seems a fair assumption that the game is rigged, but then what do you expect from slots?

    I would be more interested to test the fairness of the doubling up features of various video poker games (not that I play them), since these at least claim to be fair.
     
  6. Apr 14, 2005
  7. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    THe "Hi-Lo" in actual uk Pubs is worse than your experiances posted above. Nothing much is random with Pub machines im afraid.
     
  8. Apr 14, 2005
  9. sirius

    sirius Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    I've known this for years and I think most people who have played the fruit machines know. It is only a true skill feature when the word 'skill' is in the feature. At other times it is predetermined. The payouts are legally allowed to be as low as 72% on these machines but due to the random nature being predetermined mostly, it is possible to have an advantage with them if you play immediately after someone else because of this 'feature'.

    For example, normally if you put 50p in a random machine and it pays nothing, the past experience doesn't affect the future odds so that another 50p won't have different odds. But since it is often predetermined, you are slightly more likely to win the second time you put 50p in if no wins occurred the first time! Not a lot of people know that.
     
  10. Apr 14, 2005
  11. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Ah yes anyone from the "pub scene" knows too well that its not so much random as randomly fixed :D

    But at the end of the day, does it matter? After all, a "published payout" will be available and thats what you are playing for. If its 75% then it doesnt matter what hi/lo gamble you have, what symbols drop, what anything in fact, 75% of what you put in you'll get back (on average). If you happen to play "best strategy" (which with the interactive features pub slots have is more applicable now), you should get more than 75% while people who dont play optimum strategy will probably get less, but nonetheless the average published payout will remain the key.

    The up-side to Crypto's slots and the new MG Pub slots coming soon are that the payouts are far more likely to be waaay above what pub slots pay out..probably nearer 90% at a guess so it all sounds positive to me :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2005
  12. Apr 14, 2005
  13. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Screenshot as promised....
    (Hopefully Slotchik won't spot it in this thread, and take the piss out of me for only betting 25c/spin :D )

    I would still like to hear from anyone who has ever won ANYTHING on the 'Super Heavy Weight Feature', or maybe hit the Jackpot???
    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2005
  14. Apr 14, 2005
  15. mitch

    mitch Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Secret
    Location:
    UK
    Nice hit KK.

    Now run for your life!

    Mitch
     
  16. Apr 14, 2005
  17. Dirk Diggler

    Dirk Diggler Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Company Secretary
    Location:
    UK
    Just for the record these Fruit Machines in the UK have always (at least for the last 10 years) had to include on the machine words to the effect of 'the odds of winning any particular games are not necessarily those shown'. This clearly covers this and I'm actually amazed anyone would think that high/low bets on them were anything other than non-random.

    Surely everyone knows slots/fruit machines aren't randon? They're purely computers that simply payout a set percentage. It's why casino's love them so much - there's no risk of them losing money on them.

    MRB - the questions that you raise to the casino are pointless. Do you think it is right that a land based casino's has both random table games and slots/fruit machines? I'd be surprised if your nswer was no.

    And your question 3) purely asks do they think it is right that they have slots in the casino at all. Afterall that is purely what slots do.

    I do however agree with your point regarding making it clear to players that certain features (i.e high/low bets) are not entirely random. This is a well known fact to any UK fruit machine player, however is obviously not if you are not familiar with the games.

    This should be made clear to players, otherwise the situation is similar to the issue at Slotland where they do not clearly show that their Jacks or Better game is non-random.

    As always as much transparency as possible is what's best for the player and the industry.
     
  18. Apr 14, 2005
  19. martinrossbrown

    martinrossbrown Dormant account

    Location:
    Birmingham
    That's exactly what they don't say. And IMO it's unfair to include them in with games that are played at their true odds. That's all I'm asking for, clarity.

    My understanding of the non-progressive Vegas-style slots was that each event was individual - i.e it is possible for a jackpot to drop in twice in a row if the million-to-one chance happened - and on your 1st spin of the night as much as the 10000th, not 'wait for the machines to fill up then pay sometime it's ready'. This disadvantages the irregular player, and encourages people to play to 'chase' the money they have already invested.
     
  20. Apr 14, 2005
  21. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    I'm not sure if 'invested' is the right term for a game that only pays out 70% of what you put in.

    Perhaps 'thrown away' would be more appropriate.
     
  22. Apr 14, 2005
  23. big_mac

    big_mac Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    uk
    There is some good stuff about uk fruit machines here,
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
  24. Apr 15, 2005
  25. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    WOW!! i used to emply that very machine on the ferrys!! All you had to do was to switch it off when collecting a win and it wouldnt register it!!! Brings back many happy memories of 1000s of 1 coins :D :D :D
     
  26. Apr 15, 2005
  27. Dirk Diggler

    Dirk Diggler Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Company Secretary
    Location:
    UK
    Each jackpot win IS individual to a certain extent - have you seen UK fruit machines repeat jackpot's 2,3,4 or sometimes more? I certainly have. It still doesn't get away from the fact that they pay out a set percentage and needed people to lose in the first place have the funds to payout.

    I'd be AMAZED if Slots didn't work in the same way. If what you are saying is the case then they are totally random and that there is no reason why they couldn't payout 2-3 jackpots in a short space of time when they first open and bankrupt the casino.

    Personally I thought that was the difference between slots and table games - slots AREN'T random, table games are. That's why casino's love us to play the slots.
     
  28. Apr 15, 2005
  29. martinrossbrown

    martinrossbrown Dormant account

    Location:
    Birmingham
    On the B+M UK fruities this happens because players are attracted to large jackpots, but UK law limits them to 25 in one game but they can offer a repeat chance if it's less than a 50/50 chance of winning, hey presto a repeat for another 25! 2 separate games, adhering to a 25 limit, but bending the law to the limit methinks.
     
  30. Apr 15, 2005
  31. Dirk Diggler

    Dirk Diggler Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Company Secretary
    Location:
    UK
    True - but I've also experienced the 250 club fruities drop twice in a short period of time. I used to have a semi serious addiction problem when I was at Uni (watch all the casino manager's suddenly PM me touting for business :D ) and the truth with them is that the jackpots are random to some extent. I dropped a total of 23 out of 25 jackpots that a single machine dropped in one year in my uni bar and this machine certainly used to play like clockwork. The method was drop a jackpot, then wait at least a week and a half for people to fill it up and then attack it again with 200 or so pound coins accepting no win at all untill it dropped. However I also lost nearly 1000 chasing a 250 jackpot on a separate machine at my local snooker club without collecting a win (was forced to take a few payouts totalling about 100).

    No doubt both machines paid out the same only one I got lucky with, the other I didn't - either way they both needed people to lose before they could payout.

    The habit cost me about 10K in total, but I did have a great time experiencing the buzz of the win - although they were far outweighed by the lows of the losses. BTW I never went into debt because of it and never lost money I couldn't afford to lose, which is a key thing for any gambler IMO.

    However this still doesn't get away from the question as to whether Vegas Style slots (and indeed Online Casino Slots) are indeed random as you suggest or just the same as the UK Fruity style machines. I'm 99.99% sure they'e not random and are exactly the same (i.e. need people to lose before they payout).

    Anyone got a definite answer?
     
  32. Apr 15, 2005
  33. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    ugh. Firstly I can't see why people play games with 70% payout or less.

    Anyway my understanding is that Nevada (and other states) gaming law requires that the games are random, and that the probability of a jackpot is exactly the same regardless of the short-term payout - i.e. if one jackpot has occurred, the chance of a second consecutive one is the same as it was the first time.

    And I think online casinos aspire to the same thing, and there is no reason why they shouldn't as in the long run it will not affect their profits. See You must register/login in order to see the link. for more background.
     
  34. Apr 15, 2005
  35. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    I think we've all agreed that the Hi/Lo, and moves around the 'feature board' on these Crypto fruities is 100% definitely NOT random. You don't need to beware this, just be aware of it.
    But overall, the chances of getting a jackpot or big win on any slot ARE as random as any other game - just the same as hitting a Royal Flush in Stud or Video Poker - it's only a case of being in the right place at the right time.
    (Like I was when I got that hit above! :cool: )

    PS: I'm still waiting to hear from anyone who has ever won ANYTHING on the 'Super Heavy Weight Feature'.
    I threw away another $10 on it last night, just to make 100% sure it is crap. And it is. The feature is a complete waste of time; every time I was 'lucky' enough to get an extra life, I lost it again in the next 1 or 2 moves. I did once carry an extra life to the 'Super HW Feature', but my first two moves went; KO, KO! Great eh? :machinegu
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2005
  36. Apr 15, 2005
  37. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    actually that's far from clear. If they really are UK pub-style slots, they are independent and random events at all, and the payout would depend on how much money has been put in recently Otherwise there would be no sense as describing them as pub-style.

    Anything not described in this way should be, but it's not clear.
     
  38. Apr 15, 2005
  39. DealerBusts

    DealerBusts Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    Good ol' fruit machines....you gotta love them. Like Dirk i also got really addicted to them and just so happens that i was in university too at the time. Heck i used to get addicted to watching other people play. I actually bought my own fruit machine (Battle Axe, anyone?) on ebay cos i thought it would save me money :) Now i got to get rid of it cos i got nowhere to put it.

    They are damn fun though because you know that you are up against the odds and its great on the rare occasion when you defy the laws of probability and actually win.

    Nothing remotely random about the Hi-Lo's, they are supposed to screw you almost everytime on an 11 or 2. I wouldn't be surprised to lose on a 12 :p
    Come to think of it, theres nothing random about fruit machines......good job i weened myself off them.....evil bastards.
     

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