Crown Vegas is trying to steal my winnings on a 4k royal

Okay, I am revisiting this issue, just for an attempt to get some sort of resolution.

Here is a statement from the casino when they provided me with the backend screen shot:

[color=0000ff]Dear Bryan

I am writing to you with regards to the e-mail that you sent to Raphael. Unfortunately Raphael isn't in at the moment so I am going to address this on his behalf.

We have been trying to resolve this issue with vtrac for a while now and we have been in contact with Cynthia Carley who has been looking into this issue on WOL as well.

Vtrac is a problem player who in our opinion is greedy. He took up two first time depositors bonuses, won $6000 on the first one, and didn't follow the rules for the second one. I have attached the same documents which I sent to Cynthia showing the mailer which went to the affiliate as well as a screenshot of our casino backend showing when the coupon was created and the rules that were placed on the coupon when it was created. As you can see it is clearly a first time depositors bonus and according to our terms and conditions, you may not take up this bonus if you have previously deposited. If you do, your winnings will be made void. We have already returned vtrac's deposit back to his Neteller account. [/color]

The screen shot of the coupon's backend:
This is the flyer that was sent to the affiliates for promotional purposes:
Link Removed
This is the same promotion that was uploaded by CV at their site:
Link Removed

Now vtrac used the QM7CA code, which according to the backend screenshot is for "first time depositors only!" yet these two flyers show P6M79 as the signup bonus. Why would there be two sign-up bonuses on the same flyer?

Vtrac was also using Cynthia Carley as an arbitrator as well. If vtrac would oblige, I would appreciate if he could post her findings here to let us know what kind of feedback he had from her. Lest we forget, this was an email flyer that came from an affiliate, not from the casino itself. Perhaps the affiliate is a member of the GPWA.
From CV:

To explain your question:Why would there be two first time depositor bonuses in the same mailer?
33% was for up to $330, and the 150% was max of $60. So the players has a choice of 2 different signup bonuses.
Vtrac, you have to admit that your story really contains some rather extraordinary circumstances that makes it difficult to simply accept at face value.

The whole laptop dying after you won using the coupon that didn't say it was a signup bonus you got in email but deleted then found it in the cache on the disk after you repaired the laptop and immediately searched the drive for it but the date didn't quite match up and it was the same url as the one posted here after the fact by CV but without the one line that said its a signup bonus and on and on and on story.

See why many of us found that a bit hard to believe?
Crown Vegas always sends out two first time depositor coupons. You choose the one that is best for you. However, you chose to use both first time deposit coupons, therefore, you cannot be paid for "going against the rules". It is as simple as that. Additionally, you have some hell of a nerve attacking Bryan. He puts in a ton of man hours to try and please everyone! He uses his own time and does not charge one red cent for his efforts. Therefore, let me give you a piece of advice, kick yourself in the ass for being stupid, instead of blaming Bryan or accusing him for a mistake YOU made. We are all responsible for our own actions!!!
I just re-read your post VTRAC...let me clue you in on something...Bryan is neither ignorant nor immoral. You are just pissed off that YOUR ignorance was not bought by everyone. As far as being immoral...take a look in the mirror.

Having said this, you can now attack me.

Well, for whatever reason you decided to do it, I appreciate you looking into the matter one more time.

I have a problem with CV's reply to you. First of all, I'm not sure how or why I am a "problem" player. It is true that I only played at CV twice, the first time around 3/25 and the second around 5/16. I hit royals on both times and cashed out with profits both times. Now anyone who hits a royal is going to try to obtain their winnings. How does that make me a "problem" player? Because I'm causing a stink about them stealing my money? Secondly, me winning $6k on during my first CV experience is false. I hit a $4k royal + got a little extra, for winnings of $4750.

I think there are two possibilities for CV's backend screenshot (

1.) It was also changed on 5/19, around the time the new player only line was added to the T&C's on CV's website. While you can't see the actual file anymore on CV's server, we know for a fact Outdated URL (Invalid) was updated on 5/19 (read jyde's post at the bottom of ). Bryan, you said Actually, I believe it shows when the page was last uploaded. And being uploaded doesn't necessarily mean a change of the text. , which is true - however, why would they upload the file again on 5/19 after more than a month and a half? My cache screenshot (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
), shows that that file was uploaded originally on 4/2, which goes along with CV's backend screenshot. My cache screenshot also shows that the file was last checked from CV's server on 5/16, which is 3 days before the file was "updated" mysteriously. Why would they need to do that? The "last access" date is the date I loaded up Internet Explorer in offline mode to view the cached copy of that file and take a screenshot (6/6).

2.) The backend CV is correct and was never modified, which means that I did indeed play a new player only bonus. However, someone at CV made an error and failed to include the new player only line in the T&C's at CV's server (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
), and then tried to re-instate it after I made a $4k cashout. That missing line probably wasn't a problem until someone actually won big. I'm fully convinced had someone else hit a royal or cashed out a substantial winning prior to 5/16, this would have happened to them. In any case, I feel that this would be the casino's error, and that this is a classic case of the casino retro-actively changing T&C's in order to not pay a player. At the time I read the T&C's, they did not say anything about the promo being for new players only, and only after my cashout did that change. I see the only fault belonging to CV.

One last thing to ponder: If the promo is valid until 12/1 as the backend screenshot says, why is Outdated URL (Invalid) no longer valid? Perhaps CV doesn't want anyone else to notice that the file was updated on 5/19, a full month and a half after the promo started and also three days after I cashed out a $4k royal?
Bryan: I never recieved any feedback from Cynthia Carley on this matter. My last email from her was that she was looking into the matter and mentioned something about her having a trick up her sleave. I thought that was a good sign and emailed her a few days later to see if it was followed up and have since to ever get a response. That was around the time of my June 22 post here, in which I asked you for an update and never heard back. I assume that she got CV's backend screenshot around the same time and concluded that I was in the wrong.

jpm: While I can see that my story could seem far-fetched, it has always appeared from my perspective that I have backed up all my claims with solid evidence, although I will be the first to admit that my perspective is biased by the fact that I experienced everything I claimed, and you're only reading my interpretations of that. However, I assure you that sometimes truth is stranger than fiction, and had I decided to make any of this up, I would have done a much better & more believable job. Personally, I don't think it would have been worth my time to make up something like this to potentionally steal money from a casino. It is a different matter when I am the one being stolen from, in which case I will do everything in my power to right what is wrong.

linda7, while your opinions are yours and yours only, unless you have something constructive to add to this thread, please refrain from cluttering this thread anymore than it is. It is hard enough to follow the posts to extract the bare facts already, and your posts certainly do not help resolve this matter any faster.
Vtrac, just as there is no proof that CV's copy of the coupon that says it was updated on 5/19 was changed to add that line of text, there is no proof that the one apparently in your cache was not modified to remove the line. How is anyone supposed to decide who is telling the truth about the coupon rules?

And nobody else ever complained of having this same problem with this coupon, which is kind of odd. You'd think if they had changed it after the fact that someone else would have been affected and complained about it.

A newer 'update' timestamp can be caused by any number of things, not just a change in the content. Since it was located on a completely different server than all of the other CV coupons they ever sent out, it had to have been uploaded there at some point. That could have been on 5/19.

And I still can't find any explaination for why your cache shows that same new server address that CV posted here well after 5/16. None of the coupons I ever got from them before or after were from that server. They always were linked to the crown vegas website, this new server address is not part of that website. The only time I've seen that address was from CV's post and your cache.

And I really don't think that $4k is a big enough hit for them to take the chance on destroying their reputation as one of the very few good RTG casinos by screwing you over and not relenting once you bring it public. They have continued to stand by their position that you double-dipped a signup bonus and didn't just relent and pay you when you posted here. I think if they were playing games like that, they would have payed you the $4k just to shut you up and focus on screwing other players who aren't as vocal and that would more than cover your $4k.
heavens, this stuff is still continuing to happen?

As IF RTG software can't be set to disallow new player only coupons to players who aren't new!
Well written post JPM. Sets the right tone for the thread.

Your 5th paragraph, the only not technical one, i would like to respectfully but strongly disagree.

People in companies and organizations cover their rear ends when mistakes are made - big or small. It is not the staffs money or the managers but it is just the fact of an error. Attracting negative attention to onesself. The the higher ups just get annoyed that there is a problem and want to shoot the messenger. Alter the books if possible cover up, redirect error to someone else, distraction. It must be a hardened part of human nature cause it is so pevalent in my experience OUTSIDE the gaming world.

In casino land this is magnified to an incredible extent. B&M and online there is a hierarchy of people watching the level below for procedural errors. Small amounts of money gone wrong can be humiliating and be suspected of colusion with someone on the outside (very common by the way).

With my limited computer system expertise this is one of the pillars supporting vtracs presentation. The individuals working at the casino at each level have a strong motivation to "fix" things up.

The folks working in casino management/ownership naturally view the customers (privately -for the most part) with extreme contempt. (yes i have 10 years of experience all over the world on this one including our online sw/casino operators). To put it nicely, we are viewed as suckers and chumps. The casino folks consider themselves wise. Being on that side of the table.

To make a dreary occupation palatable they come to see themselves as superior to the players. Some even claim expertise in the mysteries of the gaming theory.

When these folks are faced with the shock that some of their "sucker" players get lucky and consistently win for a stretch (it happens both ways), they can get nasty, vindictive. Like vtrac plays a place only twice and gets a Royal both times (when is that goin' to happen to me?). Especially if some casino staff screw up was involved.

Just ask Mary about all the errors, inexplicable goofs found on some websites.

As for risking their reputation over $6k$? :

Do you recall the fiascos of the recent past. Magic Oasis comes to mind as one example. Coincidentally the sum involved was also very close to $6k. They withstood a firestorm of bad publicity. The message boards lit up. The damage spead to windows casino. Steve adkins harrangue s on casino gazette radio. Portals were got heat for running there banners and took them down. It became a litmus test for your credibility : if you ran Magic oasis (or windows banners) you were suspected corrupt or ignorant.

After 10 months. Windows casino saved face by stepping up and paying the players. That is TEN months. And the venerable Windows was (is?) RTG's flagship, it's biggest casino by far, with the deepest pockets and the most to lose. They held out 10 months. Crown vegas (also RTG) is a puny operation in comparison and a new kid on the block.

Further more Crown vegas is, in this controversy, in a far more enviable position compared to Windows/magic Oasis. Not just that it is a small operation who's 15 minutes of "good reputation" has passed, but, more importantly, because it is far easier for a casino employee (or management) to take down a single player for $6k than it is to tke down a a couple of dozen for a Total of $6k.

The 24 folks reinforce each other. It is taken as fact just by there numbers. vtrac is a lone voice in the wilderness. Everyone wants proof beyond a reasonable doubt from THE PLAYER. If there were 3 or for victimized players this would be a slam dunk. It has been the same with lone players taken down by casinos in the past. The responses are skeptical to the player. How many hundreds of times would i read a response to a lone ripped off player be : " well i have played at casino X several times with no problem. They were very good to me". A comment that patently misses the whole point.

("i got mugged in the park - it is dangerous in there.". "I walked thru that park several times with no problems you must be in error" Duh.)

My personal knowledge of vtrac persuades me that he is being entirely truthful here, and is the victim of either a vindictive casino fraud from someone at crown vegas, or is the victim of a cover up of an error made by crown vegas staff/management. Otherwise only human error.

On the computer system talk i do not know enough to comment. (thank goodness for that...enough already.)

Vtrac : no more throwing mudballs at the good casinomeister. He is true blue and of unimpeachable integrity. Tested in Battle. Don't mess with the meister. I wouldn't.
You make some excellent points there Portia, thanks.

Aside from my technical concerns which I know others share, I still think that CV would have made some effort to settle this by now though if it had been a screw up in the back end. Especially since they are the new kid on the block, you'd expect them to be on their best behavior for a while. Usually you see that type of behavior from someone who's been around a while like the Magic Oasis/AIB type casinos. I think the arrogance tends to build up after being 'established' for a while.

I thought it was 4k, rather than 6k. But none the less, they could make that up in a weekend with their $100 match promos that you can only play on slots (with something like 15x playthru). That would only require 40 'losers' that weekend alone.

Just by a preponderence of the evidence presented (which would be the requirement in a civil case, as opposed to beyond reasonable doubt which is criminal requirement) I'm not convinced by vtrac's version of events. That doesn't mean either of the stories is accurate or true, just that I for one am not convinced by it. If there were even one more player with the same story, I would probably believe differently though.

I still think it would be suicidal for them to pull this for such a relatively low sum. Just my opinion though.
jpm, the fact is that Crown Vegas has pulled similiar stunts in the past, where more than 1 player was affected. Because of that, I think vtrac has a case here.

If a casino accepts a promotion, accepts a deposit, accepts the players plays, it should pay the winners, take the deposits of the losers. This is so bloody simple to me, i don't see anyway around it.
Were those stunts by CV posted here? I don't remember reading about them. You're not talking about that magazine ad debacle back around the beginning of the year are you? (Don't remember if that was CV or not, but I do remember the ad did say first time bonus only)

I disagree that if the casino accepts the promotion then it has to pay winners. Only if the player legitimately redeemed a promotion for which they were qualified should the casino have to pay the winnings. That means no double dipping on sign up bonuses. They aren't obligated to pay out on bonuses that are claimed fraudulently, just return the deposit and boot the player.
Then why don't these smart programmers set up their software to catch if someone has already used a certain promotion?

And don't say it can't be done, I know better!

Though, I for one will go into my casino account History and check to see if I have already used a certain coupon code or not before using one sent to me, and I read every word in the email received for the coupon.

BUT also, these casino's know who has used what, so why send another coupon with a different code but still can only be used for first time depositors?

just my thoughts on the issue!
How much work would it be to program as follows :

1) player input RTG coupon code

2) player input email address

3) scan list of approved email addresses for this coupon

4) if no match, reject code and print error message to player, otherwise go to step 5

5) if coupon code matches with approved email list then send confirmation link to player

6) upon player clicking on link from his mailbox credit player account with bonus.

7) end

This is not tuff. Thought that was what RTG did. Seems not.

Considering all the trouble caused by folks trying to abuse rtg bonus coupons you would think this would have been a priority a couple of years ago?

Maybe RTG has this feature and the casino neglected to switch it on?

RTG sw has got to be the nicest (along with viper now maybe). RTG boasts about there back end. I bet they have this capability.

Would RTG confirm if they do?

4) upon confirming email address of player
It would not be difficult for RTG to do. I frequently get bonus offers in email from RTG casinos, yet when I go and try to redeem them, sometimes I'd get a message saying 'this coupon cannot be redeemed at this time, please contact customer service'. This means I've been tagged as a 'bonus abuser' at that particular casino and can't use that coupon. Seen it more than once and gotten the same explaination each time. So its not at all difficult to flag coupon codes against usernames and say that this username used a signup coupon already and the code you entered is no good.

The question is, why doesn't RTG do this?
jpm, you asked for an answer, here's an answer.

you go to an RTG with a coupon you
1- found online
2- a friend told you about, said it was for everyone
3- spotted in a magazine, what have you
4- got emailed to you by an affiliate, or the casino, or who knows, but it looks legit

you go, and you play, and you lose. too bad so sad but it happens. next week, same thing. this time but different coupon, and you're lucky - you win. OOPS, this coupon is

1) for new players only
2) for selected players only
3) expired (we didn't set the expiry date properly in the system, regardless, it's expired)
4) any other reason

as you can see, the casino Wins in both cases, the player loses in both cases.

that's why.
Well yeah I kinda knew the answer already, I guess it was more of a rhetorical one.

Thanks for giving your input and support.

jpm: Why would CV upload the T&C to their server on 5/19 when the coupon was first active on 4/1? My cache shows that the ORIGINAL version was uploaded on 4/2, and I assure you that what you see on my screenshot was not edited or otherwised altered in anyway. It doesn't make any sense for CV to have a coupon active for a month and a half before they decide to upload their T&Cs to their server, unless they were changing something. Some CV employee would not have just decided to re-upload the same copy of the T&Cs just for kicks, coincidentally on the date that they try to deny my winnings.

Like I've said before - I have given up on the money. I've only recently begun posting to this read again because everytime I think about this matter, I get annoyed. All I care about now is to get the information out. I'll feel satisfied when the poeple in power, the webmasters, wake up to what is going on. All I want is for Bryan to acknowledge the fact that Crown Vegas lied and stole from me. I'm not even asking for him to get the money back, because I know Crown Vegas would never give it up, nor would RTG. Clearly the employees of Crown Vegas have no honor and integrity - that is something I've accepted.

Come on Bryan, I know deep down inside you you know I am right. Why is it so hard to accept that a casino lied and is trying to cover it up?

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