Bonus Complaint Craps on a bonus

cooperman

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I am looking for some help here regarding a bonus. I played at a playtech casino which has the following game weighting for the games I played. Roullette and Craps 20%.

They also have a 2 pertinent terms in their T&Cs

If a player has an active bonus and wins more than twice the value of the bonus amount, they must stay playing in a game of similar or equal weighting until wagering has been completed. Moving from low weighted games like Blackjack, to high weighted games like slots, after a large win, for the sole purpose of completing wagering requirements, will result in the bonus and any winnings being removed

and also

Players deemed at the sole discretion of the promoter to be adopting a low risk betting strategy to clear wagering will have the bonus along with any winnings removed. This includes, but is not limited to, betting on red or black.

So the way I read these terms was, if you played Roulette, you cannot then go and burn the bonus up on Slots which I fully understand. I started by playing Roulette and got my balance to about £900 and then, because the weighting was the same, I played on Craps. I bet £10-£25 on the first roll on the DONT PASS then when the number was there I bet 3 times my initial wager on the DONT PASS line again. Im not up on the terminology and only learned how to play like this following a trip to Vegas and a course at Circus Circus. I bet like this for ages and my balance rose to about £2k. I withdrew £400 after completing the wagering and then carried on betting £25 on the out roll and £75 on the next roll. I bet like this with my balance dropping to under £1000 but carried on until I was back to about £1600 then stopped.

I logged in again about 4 hours later to play again and all my money had been taken away. I have PMd the rep on here and he has replied.

Regarding your mail above we had removed your bonus due to minimum risk wagering. Your total wagering with ***** was £14,630. You had placed large stakes on Roulette and then moved to low stakes on Craps betting on Don't pass line bets to clear wagering requirements. As per our terms and conditions;
"Players deemed at the sole discretion of the promoter to be adopting a low risk betting strategy to clear wagering will have the bonus along with any winnings removed. This includes, but is not limited to, betting on red or black."



This is not 100% accurate.The large stakes on Roullette was £60 first spin then £150-£200 the next spin for about 5-8 spins. I cannot see the history on the account. Re the low stakes on Craps, the maximum I could have on a throw was £100. I started off having £10 on the outspin the £30 after this rising to £25 and £75 the maximum allowed.

The wagering requirements were £6000, I wagered £14000 (Though I was told it was £71k on the phone). My argument is, how can it be low risk when I won £1100. Then after withdrawing I played exactly the same way and lost £600 before winning it back. Low risk, IMO, you wouldnt lose so much in such a short space of time.


The casino has weightings in place to take into account the house edges of the games. They said in their T&Cs you cannot go from a low weighting to a higher one. I didnt, I played exactly the same. The low risk line fails because I lost £600 then won it back, hardly low risk.

I look forward to peoples views. Thanks
 
Last edited:

KasinoKing

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Well in my personal opinion, it sounds like you may have a valid case.

In order to get the best possible advice from the members of the forum, I think you need to name the casino.
As about 75% of Playtech casinos are "dodgy" at best, you may be out of luck, but even some reputable casinos have "unsavoury" terms like those you quoted above, so it could be a casino with a rep on the forum, or even an Accredited brand.

If the casino is NOT in the Rogue Pit or the No Can Do List, you may want to submit a PAB:
First please send the casino representative (if they have one here) a Private Message about your problem.
Reps are listed here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/?key=staff_members

After giving them a reasonable amount of time, if they do not put things right to your satisfaction, you can Pitch-A-Bitch.
This is CasinoMeister's FREE service to help players with problems at non-rogue casinos.
To submit your PAB, click here: Pitch-A-Bitch
Be sure to read ALL the terms for submitting a PAB, including the Frequently Asked Questions here: PAB FAQs

Welcome to the forum! :thumbsup:
KK
 

cooperman

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Thanks for taking the time to reply.

The above message I received is from the Rep. Its Coral Casino.

I genuinely read the terms thoroughly and thought Id stayed well within them. Ive even carried on playing losing £600 before winning it back on the same game playing the same way. As that was his reply, should I know pitch a bitch?
 

KasinoKing

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Thanks for taking the time to reply.

The above message I received is from the Rep. Its Coral Casino.

I genuinely read the terms thoroughly and thought Id stayed well within them. Ive even carried on playing losing £600 before winning it back on the same game playing the same way. As that was his reply, should I know pitch a bitch?
Sorry - I missed the bit where you already said you contacted the rep here :oops:

Yep - Pitch a Bitch is the way to go now.
Good luck!
KK
 

cooperman

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I have pitched a bitch, it was quite painless. I will let you know when it has been resolved.

Thanks again for your help.
 

Nifty29

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Turn right, then right. then right again
I am looking for some help here regarding a bonus. I played at a playtech casino which has the following game weighting for the games I played. Roullette and Craps 20%.

They also have a 2 pertinent terms in their T&Cs

If a player has an active bonus and wins more than twice the value of the bonus amount, they must stay playing in a game of similar or equal weighting until wagering has been completed. Moving from low weighted games like Blackjack, to high weighted games like slots, after a large win, for the sole purpose of completing wagering requirements, will result in the bonus and any winnings being removed

and also

Players deemed at the sole discretion of the promoter to be adopting a low risk betting strategy to clear wagering will have the bonus along with any winnings removed. This includes, but is not limited to, betting on red or black.

So the way I read these terms was, if you played Roulette, you cannot then go and burn the bonus up on Slots which I fully understand. I started by playing Roulette and got my balance to about £900 and then, because the weighting was the same, I played on Craps. I bet £10-£25 on the first roll on the DONT PASS then when the number was there I bet 3 times my initial wager on the DONT PASS line again. Im not up on the terminology and only learned how to play like this following a trip to Vegas and a course at Circus Circus. I bet like this for ages and my balance rose to about £2k. I withdrew £400 after completing the wagering and then carried on betting £25 on the out roll and £75 on the next roll. I bet like this with my balance dropping to under £1000 but carried on until I was back to about £1600 then stopped.

I logged in again about 4 hours later to play again and all my money had been taken away. I have PMd the rep on here and he has replied.

Regarding your mail above we had removed your bonus due to minimum risk wagering. Your total wagering with ***** was £14,630. You had placed large stakes on Roulette and then moved to low stakes on Craps betting on Don't pass line bets to clear wagering requirements. As per our terms and conditions;
"Players deemed at the sole discretion of the promoter to be adopting a low risk betting strategy to clear wagering will have the bonus along with any winnings removed. This includes, but is not limited to, betting on red or black."



This is not 100% accurate.The large stakes on Roullette was £60 first spin then £150-£200 the next spin for about 5-8 spins. I cannot see the history on the account. Re the low stakes on Craps, the maximum I could have on a throw was £100. I started off having £10 on the outspin the £30 after this rising to £25 and £75 the maximum allowed.

The wagering requirements were £6000, I wagered £14000 (Though I was told it was £71k on the phone). My argument is, how can it be low risk when I won £1100. Then after withdrawing I played exactly the same way and lost £600 before winning it back. Low risk, IMO, you wouldnt lose so much in such a short space of time.


The casino has weightings in place to take into account the house edges of the games. They said in their T&Cs you cannot go from a low weighting to a higher one. I didnt, I played exactly the same. The low risk line fails because I lost £600 then won it back, hardly low risk.

I look forward to peoples views. Thanks

IMO you're pretty much screwed.

Before I continue, let me say that I think these terms are not only extremely vague and difficult to adhere to, but they also just plain suck. So, before anyone goes off about me thinking all casino terms are wonderful....well there it is.

Now, the issues you have, as I see it, are these:

1. You actually DID make large bets, and then dropped your bets substantially. You started with 150-200 bets on Roulette (forget the inital 10), built up your bankroll, then moved to 10-25 bets up to a max of 75. At best, that is a 50% reduction.....and that is only when you end up with the full 75 chips on the table. When you play the Don't Pass line @10-25, you're actually looking at a 90% reduction! (as the bets made AFTER the come out roll are considered seperate bets AFAIK).

2. The Don't Pass line is even money, no? Well that IS a low risk bet. Same with laying odds after the come out roll (varying odds but all less than even money IIRC...happy for craps experts to correct me as it's been a while). Just because you lost at some point, doesn't mean you didn't make low risk bets. The risk of a bet has absolutely nothing to do with the actual result of the bet....risk applies to making the bet, not resolving it.

3. You agreed that:

Players deemed at the sole discretion of the promoter to be adopting a low risk betting strategy to clear wagering will have the bonus along with any winnings removed.

There's no point protesting about what might appear to be an arbitrary confiscation of winnings when you have agreed that the casino can do just that. When you create an account, and accept a promotion, you agree to ALL the terms and conditions. The time to decide you DON'T like them and don't accept them is BEFORE you play.


Personally, I think you took a risk just by playing the way you did. You stated you read the terms carefully, and yet you played in a manner that suggests you did not.

The terms are crap (pardon the pun), but you accepted them....and broke them (according to the casino, which is the sole arbiter of whether you did or did not). Live and learn. Don't accept terms that you don't fully understand.

I really don't like your chances.

I'm not sure why KasinoKing thinks you have a valid case. He is a strong, vocal advocate for players needing to accept whatever terms they agreed to before playing, even when those terms are crappy. I believe his mantra has been "If you don't like the terms, then don't play" i.e. if you do play, then tough luck if you are held to them by the casino. However, since he seems to support your case here, when it clearly states the casino can decide what constitutes low risk bonus strategies and that your particular method of high bets followed by low bets is not allowed, I'm beginning to wonder if his mantra only applies at certain times for certain reasons.
 

gagamel

Professional smurf hunter
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Location
Switzerland
The T/C told you how to play.
There are so many traps in these times for a player to fulfill the WR. And all casinos have to give bonus because without bonus offers you are not competitive. And with giving bonuses you attract the fraudsters to play with you. And then you make the conditions stricter and in the end the T/C are really bad for the players. That`s the way business works.
In 2001 I played the first time oneline, restrictions were minimal.
This year I tried a lot of bonuses, but they destroyed my gameplay. And I lost a lot of money because of bonus terms you can only reach with a real load of luck. Since I denied most bonus offers, I`m doing fine.
My suggestion: No bonus in the beginning. Give the player a bonus after some time with fair conditions. Then it`s like a reward for the player.

And we don`t have bonus complaints anymore.

I know, it will not be possible to change such things but it would be an alternative to the existing casino bonus system.
 

KasinoKing

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I'm not sure why KasinoKing thinks you have a valid case.
Please read my post again, I said he MAY have a valid case, not he DOES have a valid case..
I have to be honest and admit that the game of Craps just confuses me totally and I would never claim to understand it. Now that you have explained that what the OP did was very low risk, I tend to agree that his case may well be very weak.
Thanks for the info.

Now the PAB has been submitted I guess it's down to Max & CM to decide who is in the right. I hope they will also look to see if the terms mentioned above are acceptable for an Accredited casino.

KK
 

cooperman

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Nifty, thank you for your reply. If we all agreed it would be a sad place :)

Im not going to discuss my case as such because I have pitched a bitch but will ask a question re the terms.

While I get the ref re the odds of craps (you have a way better understanding of it than me) (I cannot now see the T&Cs for any promotion as they have now changed their website and the more info link just loops back to the original page) isnt that why you have game weightings? I mean, you can play blackjack which is a lower house edge than craps and this is literally red or black (win or lose a hand) and I would say also, though I dont know and if I am wrong on this then I will bow to your better knowledge, you are a 1 in 6 chance of losing your stake on the out throw (throw a 7) then a slightly odds on of winning after this so in 6 hands you would stake 21 units and return 18.75 on average. (I have assumed rolling a 6/8 for maths purposes).

If Ive worked this out incorrectly Nifty, I do appologies.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I read the above and to be honest, my brain is cooked :(
 
Last edited:

Cleveland

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isnt that why you have game weightings? I mean, you can play blackjack which is a lower house edge than craps and this is literally red or black (win or lose a hand)

edited: Heh I have roulette on the mind....

For the life of me I couldn't figure out why BJ would have a red/black pick. :oops:
 

zreb

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It's possible that the reason the casino is a bit more particular about roulette and craps bets being "low risk" is due to a bit of confusion on their side. The ultimate low risk bet isn't betting on red or black, it's betting on red AND black. Similarly, it may be possible to bet on the pass and don't pass lines at the same time with craps. For obvious reasons, the casino would not like that.

I think the casino is being somewhat ridiculous here, as betting 100 on craps is a large bet with anything less than 2000 in your account. However, you haven't been entirely clear on what your roulette bets were. If you were betting something like $30 on individual numbers, then you were effectively decreasing your bet significantly. But changing from betting 200 on say, red, compared to betting 100 on craps, isn't that drastic of a change.

The real reason for your problem may have just been the sheer size of your initial bets. If you deposited 500 or less, and are wagering 150 at a time prior to hitting a substantial win, that's a bit abnormal. Most reputable casinos have a clause specifically to prevent this - this particular casino may not have such a clause, and have picked the closest thing they could find to you breaking a term. Of course, that is just speculation.

We don't have 100% of the info on the situation, but it definitely sounds like somewhat of a borderline case - could be taken either way. That's why it's preferable when casino terms are as clear and specific as possible, at least in my view. Of course, I wouldn't recommend that you post more information prior to the resolution of your PAB.
 

vinylweatherman

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It's possible that the reason the casino is a bit more particular about roulette and craps bets being "low risk" is due to a bit of confusion on their side. The ultimate low risk bet isn't betting on red or black, it's betting on red AND black. Similarly, it may be possible to bet on the pass and don't pass lines at the same time with craps. For obvious reasons, the casino would not like that.

I think the casino is being somewhat ridiculous here, as betting 100 on craps is a large bet with anything less than 2000 in your account. However, you haven't been entirely clear on what your roulette bets were. If you were betting something like $30 on individual numbers, then you were effectively decreasing your bet significantly. But changing from betting 200 on say, red, compared to betting 100 on craps, isn't that drastic of a change.

The real reason for your problem may have just been the sheer size of your initial bets. If you deposited 500 or less, and are wagering 150 at a time prior to hitting a substantial win, that's a bit abnormal. Most reputable casinos have a clause specifically to prevent this - this particular casino may not have such a clause, and have picked the closest thing they could find to you breaking a term. Of course, that is just speculation.

We don't have 100% of the info on the situation, but it definitely sounds like somewhat of a borderline case - could be taken either way. That's why it's preferable when casino terms are as clear and specific as possible, at least in my view. Of course, I wouldn't recommend that you post more information prior to the resolution of your PAB.

It is:) It may not be the case with all softwares, but with Microgaming it's possible, and it's also possible to cover 100% of the Roulette table.

The terms actually steer players into doing something wrong as they are not allowed to change to a different weighting category from the game they started out on. Start on Roulette, and you CAN'T then play any slots, you are stuck with the table games. Table games tend to be lower risk than slots.

The casino would be better off just having a slots bonus for new players so that this issue does not arise. In effect, this term prohibits almost every kind of bankroll management strategy by the player. Players are expected to stick to the style they started out with irrespective of how well or badly they are doing.

Unless one is intending to play the slots, this bonus should be left alone.

Whenever I take bonuses, I stick to slots and AWPs. If I fancy my chances at aggressive play on the tables and video poker, I deposit outside of promotions as the style would probably fall foul of some of the bonus terms.
 

cooperman

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I thought id posted but must have missed the click.

If someone can help me because I dont understand but if the casino has game weightings set according to the house edge of the game, what difference is it having £1 on every number except zero and £18 of red? The expected loss to the player is the same over n spins?
 

bsilva028

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cooperman
its not an answer to your question, since i am not a roulette player, but
if you have pab on progress, don´t post here, on this thread, PAB rules.
 

cooperman

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Im been very careful to only ask questions re gameplay not specifically to what I have done. If this is a no no then I do apologies?
 

bsilva028

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Im been very careful to only ask questions re gameplay not specifically to what I have done. If this is a no no then I do apologies?

its not by me
i am not the pab guy

this is only an advice that you are also broking the pab rules even if you read all of them.
advice: wait by the end of the pab
 

wobble33

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uk
hi guys

I posted on here a while back about corals having this new term...you will see the post if you search for it.
I stopped playing at corals altogether and I was vip. they cut my status down back to club for no reason whatsoever. and a lot of other things happened too.

will never ever play at this place again, and I only have a few fav places I play at these days! I ended off getting a £2k royal flush, and eh, sorry status is now club lol...

regarding the complaint....

they have all angles covered regarding the % counting of the games you can play for wr..the op was a bit too clever for them. why for the life of me they don't just say slots only bonus I have no clue...
they cant even get the line right about RED or BLACK low risk. it should read RED and BLACK covered is low risk.

they have bonuses where a certain game has to be played for use of the bonus. no idea why they don't just use all bonuses this way, then if you go to play b/j. the bonus wont be their, just on any slot game you will find it..
 

maxd

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Apologies to the OP and those waiting for action on the PAB. Long story short: I haven't (yet) pursued this nearly as diligently as I normally would. Working to correct that now. Again, apologies to all concerned.
 

cooperman

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No problem at all max.

When I saw you had posted I was expecting a telling off for posting too much, not that you hadnt got a result. It is christmas after all.
 

dizze

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uk
IMO you're pretty much screwed.

Before I continue, let me say that I think these terms are not only extremely vague and difficult to adhere to, but they also just plain suck. So, before anyone goes off about me thinking all casino terms are wonderful....well there it is.

Now, the issues you have, as I see it, are these:

1. You actually DID make large bets, and then dropped your bets substantially. You started with 150-200 bets on Roulette (forget the inital 10), built up your bankroll, then moved to 10-25 bets up to a max of 75. At best, that is a 50% reduction.....and that is only when you end up with the full 75 chips on the table. When you play the Don't Pass line @10-25, you're actually looking at a 90% reduction! (as the bets made AFTER the come out roll are considered seperate bets AFAIK).

2. The Don't Pass line is even money, no? Well that IS a low risk bet. Same with laying odds after the come out roll (varying odds but all less than even money IIRC...happy for craps experts to correct me as it's been a while). Just because you lost at some point, doesn't mean you didn't make low risk bets. The risk of a bet has absolutely nothing to do with the actual result of the bet....risk applies to making the bet, not resolving it.

3. You agreed that:

Players deemed at the sole discretion of the promoter to be adopting a low risk betting strategy to clear wagering will have the bonus along with any winnings removed.

There's no point protesting about what might appear to be an arbitrary confiscation of winnings when you have agreed that the casino can do just that. When you create an account, and accept a promotion, you agree to ALL the terms and conditions. The time to decide you DON'T like them and don't accept them is BEFORE you play.


Personally, I think you took a risk just by playing the way you did. You stated you read the terms carefully, and yet you played in a manner that suggests you did not.

The terms are crap (pardon the pun), but you accepted them....and broke them (according to the casino, which is the sole arbiter of whether you did or did not). Live and learn. Don't accept terms that you don't fully understand.

I really don't like your chances.

I'm not sure why KasinoKing thinks you have a valid case. He is a strong, vocal advocate for players needing to accept whatever terms they agreed to before playing, even when those terms are crappy. I believe his mantra has been "If you don't like the terms, then don't play" i.e. if you do play, then tough luck if you are held to them by the casino. However, since he seems to support your case here, when it clearly states the casino can decide what constitutes low risk bonus strategies and that your particular method of high bets followed by low bets is not allowed, I'm beginning to wonder if his mantra only applies at certain times for certain reasons.



I dont know if your trolling or not... your other posts on this forum seem to indicate you regularly indulge in this behaviour.

An example:

If a casino stated clearly,"Deposit and Deposit match will be deemed "Bonus funds". All winnings with bonus funds are non withdrawable. "Bonus Funds" are non withdrawable. At no time can you withdraw any monies from your casino account."

Do you think those terms are binding, NO, terms cannot be misleading and unfair to the consumer, no civil court in the UK will rule in favour of gala coral.

OP if you havent recieved your funds, i suggest you start sending messages on their facebook and twitter, i also suggest that you leave as many negative reviews as possible.

If all doesnt go well, send them a letter before action, and you WILL receive your funds promptly!
 
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