CR DISPUTE over ~$3000 in winnings - bogus claim

jaguar1987

Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
Moscow
1. On July, 11th I ordered a withdrawal of EUR 1006,5 from the Blackjack Ballroom Casino. About EUR 700 were remaining in my account. Several days later (the withdrawal had not been processed yet) I made a EUR 500 bet and won, making my net win around EUR 2200 (or USD 3000). Quite a large win this was, so presumably the casino decided not to pay me by finding an excuse for it, so:

2. on July, 15th I discover that my accounts within this group were locked. PLEASE NOTE: no e-mail informing me about my accounts being locked had been sent to me. I would have been waiting for my withdrawal and wouldn`t have know that it wasn`t processed any more, had I not tried to login into the casino. I do believe that this is an unethical practice and a disrespectful attitude to the players, I have never come across anything like this during all my internet gambling experince.

3. In reply to my e-mail asking to clearify the situation I received this:
Hello Dmitriy
Your account has been closed as there have been many accounts opened from the same location all claiming the same promotion. This is against our terms and conditions.

"All promotions can only be claimed once per person, household, family, household address, email address, credit card number, or shared computer environment such as a library, workplace, fraternity, university or school. "
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Any deposits that you have made will be refunded.

Kind Regards

*********************************************

I have not opened any accounts besides those in my name, several within this group, from my computer. There has been some mistake or just a desire not to pay large winnings. I suggested that the reasons could have been the following:
a. I use an ISP that gives dymanic IPs. There could have been a coincidence that my IP was the same as the IP of another user at other time
b. I accessed some of my accounts with Microgaming casinos from a university computer. Someone might have accessed his/her account from the same location. I had not made amy bets from there, I was checking the status of my withdrawals.
c. I have acquired my PC second-hand and it may link to accounts of the original owners through hardware identifiers.

I waited for a reply for about a week. Great that not a year. When it came, the casino insisted on its "verdict", adding

4. a point that "Also it appears that you had used autoplay in order to hedge your bets to meet the wagering requirements. As per the terms and conditions, this is prohibited." It should be noted that the casino does not know its own T&C well enough. The T&C prohibit the use of the "autoplay feature" obviously referring to the autoplay function of the Microgaming software. I hadn`t been using it.

5. As I`ve stated above, I have not opened multiple accounts or participated in other nefarious behavior. I believe the casino tried to accuse me of this as this may prevent the gaming authorities or people on some forums from supporting the player, who, in my case, and perhaps in some other cases, has been wrongfully deprived of his winnings, in other words, robbed. I have heard of some casinos using such practices or some "bonus abuse" clauses, but it is a complete surprise for me that the CR group, which is quite reputable, tries to avoid paying large winnings making wrong accusations and not knowing their own T&C well enough.

I respect the rules and the rights of any casino I play in, and I believe that I (and any other honest player) deserve that the casino does the same, which includes following their own T&C STRICTLY, without any broad or narrow interpretation of the rules contained in them as it may be convenient for the casino in each case.

For example, lets see the point in T&C quoted by the casino:

***All promotions can only be claimed once per
person, *****observed
household, *****observed
family, *****observed
household address, *****observed
email address, *****observed
credit card number, *****observed
or shared computer environment such as a library, *****observed
workplace, *****observed
fraternity, *****observed
university *****observed
or school. *****observed


I believe this is just an attempt to "invent" an excuse for not paying a large sum.


I have addressed eCOGRA with no satisfactory result. They wrote
******We have investigated your query with the casino and have made the f ollowing f indings;
Your account has been linked to a number o f other accounts at the casino through identi f iers.
We have reviewed these identi f iers and are satis f ied that the casino has acted according to their Terms and Conditions in locking your account at Black Jack Ballroom Casino. For security reasons we are not at liberty to disclose the nature o f the identi f iers.*****

I replied,
I do not object to my account being locked. This up to casino to lock my account, at their discretion. But not paying winnings is not lawful in this case. Locking an account should not imply stealing money from it.

I do not know the reason for my account being linked to other accounts through identifiers. I am not the original owner of my computer, it has been acquired second-hand. This might be one of the possible reasons, in addition to those 2 which I stated in my original dispute resolution request, in this case the identifiers can link my account to those of the original owner(s).

The clause in the Terms and Conditions cited by the support team when stating the reasons for my winnings to be confiscafed and account locked is this:

All promotions can only be claimed once per person, household, family, household address, email address, credit card number, or shared computer environment such as a library, workplace, fraternity, university or school.
It is obvious that my case is not one of those. My computer is not (and does not belong to) a shared computer environment as stated above. All the criterias do not apply to my case. Moreover, this clause does not state that winnings are to be confiscated, nor does any other clause that can be applied to my case.

There are no grounds for confiscating my winnings, which are my money. While I admit that locking an account is something that can be done without even stating the reasons for it (as they are the property of the casino), the funds from the locked account should be transferred to their owner (as they are not the property of the casino).

The grounds for confiscating stated by the casino are invalid, as I explained above.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Identifiers? This is sh####. All my accounts were locked by the Riverbelle group 2 years ago when they stated that their identifiers had related my accounts related to other fraudsters. I couldnt gain access to their web sites let alone the casinos as they diverted me to some South African Food site. After complaining here and a couple of months time, they reopened my accounts without even an apology. If they are so damn sure the accounts are yours they should check the relevant accounts with you and tell you, for example, when the accounts were opened etc. The autoplay excuse is also absurd.

The casino must come clean about what identifiers they mean. A long time ago, there was a casino who claimed something similar just because the player resided in a particular country and when the same surname was used which was the same as a previous player it was believed that the person was the one and same player and the winnings were not paid out initially.


Hope all goes out well for you. You could try to Pitch a Bitch but Bryan has been having it tough of late.
 

noluckever67

Quit Gambling
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Location
uk
No disrespect jaguar BUT

Theres something really weird there i mean cmon read thru forums and look at excuses other people have given for being bonus abusers and getting caught out.Accept the fact you have abused the bonus and move on.
 

jaguar1987

Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
Moscow
Theres something really weird there i mean cmon read thru forums and look at excuses other people have given for being bonus abusers and getting caught out.Accept the fact you have abused the bonus and move on.
I have read many forums and the main conclusion that can be made is that CASINOS TRY TO FIND EXCUSES NOT TO PAY THE WINNINGS.

In my case there was not a single word about bonus abusing, only the shit about multiple accounts and autoplay (I have not used the Autoplay FEATURE prohibited by the T&C (refers to that of the MG software) but I have used a third-party program which obviously is not forbidden by T&C).

The casino suggests I have violated some of the points in TC (2, exactly), but if you read my original message attentively you`ll see nothing has been violated.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
...You could try to Pitch a Bitch but Bryan has been having it tough of late.
I'm having it tough? I'm doing fine, just busy that's all :D

Go ahead and PAB and if I run into any of the Bellerock people this next week I'll have them look into it.

When they mean "identifiers", this usually means that you fall into a category of fraudster by using the same computer to sign up numerous accounts - or you are linked to people who do this. They won't tell you exactly what you've done since they will not disclose how they have detected this. That is their prerogative - and this is understandable since this protects the business from players overriding these things. Normally the casino will share this information with me - about 99% of the time, the casino is spot on.

But I'll check - I just hope you're being honest with me and you are not trying to feed me a load of BS. I'll find out if you are or not.
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
jaguar1987;190704 (I have not used the Autoplay FEATURE prohibited by the T&C (refers to that of the MG software) but I have used a third-party program which obviously is not forbidden by T&C). QUOTE said:
Just out of curiosity, what games were you using this 'third-party program' on?
 

jaguar1987

Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
Moscow
I'm having it tough? I'm doing fine, just busy that's all :D

Go ahead and PAB and if I run into any of the Bellerock people this next week I'll have them look into it.

When they mean "identifiers", this usually means that you fall into a category of fraudster by using the same computer to sign up numerous accounts - or you are linked to people who do this. They won't tell you exactly what you've done since they will not disclose how they have detected this. That is their prerogative - and this is understandable since this protects the business from players overriding these things. Normally the casino will share this information with me - about 99% of the time, the casino is spot on.

But I'll check - I just hope you're being honest with me and you are not trying to feed me a load of BS. I'll find out if you are or not.
Was the sentence about PAB and Bellerock addressed to me? Perhaps you meant CR group people then.

I might presume what the nature of identifiers is. IP/style of play/cookies/hardware ID, just like shareware programs somehow identify your PC by hardware.

As I explained above, the point the support quoted does not apply to my case. "All promotions can only be claimed once per person, household, family, household address, email address, credit card number, or shared computer environment such as a library, workplace, fraternity, university or school. "

Everything is observed, my PC is not a shared computer environment, but it may lead to other accounts through hardware IDs if the original owner had gambled at CR casinos. I know, this may sound quite unbelievable, but such a coinsidence or the dynamic IP coincidence are the reasons I can think of that may have led to this. AGAIN, IF THIS IS THE REASON, IT IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE TC AS THE GROUNDS FOR WINNINGS TO BE CONFISCATED.
The other possibility is that both CR and eCogra HAVE LIED.
 

jaguar1987

Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
Moscow
jaguar1987;190704 (I have not used the Autoplay FEATURE prohibited by the T&C (refers to that of the MG software) but I have used a third-party program which obviously is not forbidden by T&C). QUOTE said:
Just out of curiosity, what games were you using this 'third-party program' on?
roulette and baccy, as far as I remembber
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
jaguar1987;190704 (I have not used the Autoplay FEATURE prohibited by the T&C (refers to that of the MG software) but I have used a third-party program which obviously is not forbidden by T&C). QUOTE said:
Just out of curiosity, what games were you using this 'third-party program' on?
This looks like they have detected "bonus abuse". They have decided not to pay, and have come up with the reasons not to.
The "third party program", although not "Autoplay", is the same thing, and will come under the "robot" clauses in the general T & C.
Playing Roulette & Bacarrat is going to earn you an audit anyway, especially FRENCH roulette.
The "autoplay" argument is a bluff, the casino can not PROVE you used it, they can see patterns that indicate you MAY have used it, such as playing for 12 Hours non-stop, bets at same intervals, and in the case of games like Blackjack, playing a "perfect" strategy without a single deviation. Third party programs will look like Autoplay, and there inability to tell them apart is why the accusation was about Autoplay.
If they find out you used a third party program, even though it was not against the T & C, they will know you were only after the SUB, and will still not pay.
The large number of signups MAY indicate account fraud, but often results from a large number of players signing up and using a bonus playing recipe posted on some forum.
Russia often appears on the lists of "banned" countries at some places, and they would be expecting that any oddities emanating from there are down to a number of players attempting to make profits on the bonuses.

This pattern is now so familiar to online casinos, that ALL players should refrain from playing bonuses with any of these forum recipies, but try to develop their own individual style of play.
Spreading play over a large variety of games, including slots, is far less likely to get a player account audited.

It is likely that a return of deposit is all you will get, but this should be ALL deposits, not just the "last one" when you finally found out you could never win when accounts were locked.
Casinos could help themselves by NOT spamming the bonuses for all the other properties once they have a player at one, Casino Rewards SPAM THE HELL out of me URGING me to take the bonuses at ALL 17 properties. This is marketing FROM THEM, it is because I am on their mailing list, and they should know very well how many bonuses I have taken, and how I have played them. I often receive offers for accounts I already have. This careless & misleading marketing makes me feel they should NOT be hiding behind such harsh "after the event" terms UNTIL they get their marketing policies in order.
 

bernynhel

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Los Angeles
I don't get why anyone thinks the casino is accusing anyone of bonus abuse when they clearly state the lockout is due to multiple accounts which is not allowed per their terms. Citing multiple accounts relieves the casino of having to justify a bonus abuse violation which is a much grayer area whereby multiple accounts from one location or computer is a slam dunk. Good luck to anyone who expects a sizable cashout in a situation like this
 

jaguar1987

Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
Moscow
Concerning autoplay:
They could see it for sure if I used the software autoplay feature, which is prohibited. Perhaps the software sends info tothe server about autoplay feature being used.

Iagree with the previous poster in part that this is not a bonus abuse case. A large win from bonus might have been the actual reason for their actions, i.e. unwillingness to pay a large sum and to find an excuse for it, but the words "bonus abuse" never appeared in any mesages from them or Ecogra. The Multiple acc case which is happening might have been triggered by reasons I spoke about in my first post, but in this case they are acting not according to TC, as a dynamic IP coincidence or a use of a second-hand PC are NOT the "shared computer environment" or anything else stated in the TC and quoted by support.
Grounds are invalid in my case.

It is a pity that a reputable group acts this way and gets support from Ecogra.

Any advice on how to act and whom to addres will be highly appreciated.
 

jaguar1987

Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
Moscow
PAB posted more than a week ago. No reply from Bryan or the casino.
What can be wrong?
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
PAB posted more than a week ago. No reply from Bryan or the casino.
What can be wrong?

He's probably not working this weekend.... try to send him a personal message (click on his name or avatar) and I'm sure he'll follow up soon.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
PABs are backlogged three weeks at the moment, but I hope to have them all taken case of by tomorrow. I'm on this one now.

When they mean identifiers, it usually has nothing to do with a style of play but that they have connected your account to another/others. Is really quite simple. I'll see.

One question for the OP - are you sharing your computer with anyone?
 

cyprean

Banned User
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Location
Sun/Moon
One question for the OP - are you sharing your computer with anyone?

OP wrote:

I have not opened any accounts besides those in my name, several within this group, from my computer. There has been some mistake or just a desire not to pay large winnings. I suggested that the reasons could have been the following:
a. I use an ISP that gives dymanic IPs. There could have been a coincidence that my IP was the same as the IP of another user at other time
b. I accessed some of my accounts with Microgaming casinos from a university computer. Someone might have accessed his/her account from the same location. I had not made amy bets from there, I was checking the status of my withdrawals.
c. I have acquired my PC second-hand and it may link to accounts of the original owners through hardware identifiers.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
(I have not used the Autoplay FEATURE prohibited by the T&C (refers to that of the MG software) but I have used a third-party program which obviously is not forbidden by T&C).
Anyone who has read these forums would know that using robots etc is a huge risk, especially when a bonus is involved. I assume the robot was placing minimum risk bets etc over and over..?? Anyway, the following term probably lands you in hot water too:

Observations of playing patterns such as the playing for deliberate minimum risk, equal, zero margin or hedge betting may not be considered as playing in the appropriate spirit for the purposes of meeting bonus wagering requirements. Should the Casino deem that these practices have been utilized for the specific purpose of meeting wagering requirements, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.
Also, this one might drop you in it:

Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to, placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.
My advice would be to move on and suck it up on this one. Even though I dont agree with the wider definition casinos use for 'bonus abuse', I think that is exactly what you were trying to do in this case.

However, if the casino and eCogra has decided you have fraudulently created an account (and CM said 99% of the time they are correct), then all of the above is academic.
 

jaguar1987

Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
Moscow
As it`s been said a thousand times in this thread, the grounds for confiscating winnings stated by CR do not include bonus abuse or anything like this. I don`t remember exactly, but I think the term you cited was not in use at that time.
Using a robot is a risk, I agree, but it isn`t the autoplay feature prohibited in the TC.
Just as a second-hand pc and everything else I spoke about are not the "shared computer environment" case.

I would consider giving up in case you`d like to be a nice guy and send 2200E to me.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
What a friggin' waste of time

Well that was a total waste of time.

This guy is all over the place, he's linked to over 20 accounts. Bye fraudster.

And the PAB section has been shut down indefinately.
 

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