Corrupt Casino Watchdog Discussion

[dominique]

the problem with affiliate banners, is that if a decision needs to be made regarding keeping a certain casinos banners, is that it requires a subjective decision, however as money is involved, then the chances of this decision being made impartially is very much reduced and much more likely to side with a persons own greed (no matter how much they deny it)

The described webmaster is not very smart. What is s/he thinking?

Casinos are a dime a dozen. If you have a decent website that draws good numbers of players, it also draws good numbers of casinos. You can pick and choose to your heart's content.

If you have a small site, you can do the same because you are on a pure affiliate base rather than accepting prepaid advertising. You are just as free to pick and choose that way.

The above would make sense if the number of casinos out there was small. But with hundreds of them, all needing exposure to players, any one of them has no power over anyone.

The webmaster described above is greedy and small minded and doesn't think ahead. You want a clean industry to work in, you want partners you can trust, and most of all, you want happy players that come back again and again. If the player ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

Most webmasters I see promoting crappy casinos do so because of ignorance. They don't read the player boards. They have no idea what is going on out here. And there some who don't give a hoot. Both of those usually end up coming running and complaining because the crappy casino didn't pay them either.

These things do have a way of cleaning themselves up. What goes around, comes around in this industry.

As far as being a watchdog - I certainly don't claim to be one. Yes, I screen the places I allow on my site, yes, I back players who use my links. But I am not a watchdog - Bryan is a watchdog. I just try to run a clean site people can trust, I don't try to clean up the industry. (well, ok, sometimes I get on a soapbox, but that's not the same)

Bryan actually cleans up the industry, and so do other real watchdog sites.

Real watchdog sites are far and between, and you can't just start one today and be resolving issues tomorrow. To resolve issues you have to have the ear of the concerned parties. It takes time and effort to gain that kind of influence.

I can only influence the places that are on my site, because they want to stay there and that gives me pull. So, what I can do is limited.

Bryan can influence places he doesn't have on his site. That is what a real watchdog needs to be able to do. The watchdogs in this industry do us all an incredible service. And more often than not this mediating business is very, very aggravating because both the casinos and players are angry and you sit in the middle trying to make headway. It can be about as annoying as anything can get.

 

[Pinababy69]

Real watchdog sites are far and between, and you can't just start one today and be resolving issues tomorrow. To resolve issues you have to have the ear of the concerned parties. It takes time and effort to gain that kind of influence.

Excellent points!!

 

[Simmo!]

Just out of interest JoeyL, what's your take on it?

 

[Chatmaster]

The casino industry is a very close knit community that is for sure. Any casino that doesn't get that and act foolishly by avoiding casino watchdog sites like Casinomeister has discovered that it can hurt them allot and for a very long time (as bad posts don't go anywhere) if they are 'blacklisted' or rouged by a proper watchdog site it they will have to do allot of right to fix it. A proper watchdog site also have allot of valid evidence when they do take that step to rogue the casino. That is what many (As dominique said) ignorant webmasters don't get. Being in the SEO industry I deal with many webmasters that literally has 1000's of websites out there in all kinds of different industries. In my mind I honestly can't see how you can speak with authority if it is humanly impossible to keep these sites up to date and current. Nor can I see how you can speak with authority if you don't specialize in this industry either. There are to many things happening!

If you could take a list of this VERY young industry,... of really dodgy casinos and the reputable ones or the amount of dodgy casinos that has closed down due to their greedy or stupid behavior it actually becomes clear that the real culprit is the ignorant players that still support these corrupt webmasters. IMHO before I deposit money into a casino or poker room I will at least do a search on Google for "casinoname bad" and some other variations to see if they ever screwed up before. I will be even more impressed if I found something that was resolved.

To get back to webmasters. I mentioned earlier the webmasters with the 1000's of sites. I once had a chat with a certain one that laughed at me and said "I make $50k+ a month at an average of $50-$100p/m per website, how much are you making of your couple of websites?" I have news for you! Things are changing in the websites industry. You have to catch a wakeup right now and start building your support base, soon your website will not rank high unless you constantly work on it and update it. Then you can say goodbye to your $50k a month. Portals and proper sites will rule and the ignorant and arrogant will meet their doom.

I guess it again comes back to what dominique said earlier "What goes around, comes around in this industry." This is true for most things I guess

 

[amandajm]

Confused smiley man Simmo..

Because I would sign the 250k deal.

 

[Simmo!]

Because i would sign the $250k deal..

I missed that one

 

[Casinomeister]

Because I would sign the 250k deal.

But there are no 250k deals in this industry unless you are selling a well established website. A 250k media buy is absurd.

Would you sign the 2k deal? - that's what I'm getting at. That's a realistic situation.

 

[caruso]

I take it you're referring to your original example:

How about this - you're just getting ready to accept a 2k media buy from xyz casino, and the day before the campaign is being launched, someone complains on some other portal's message board that his winnings have been confiscated. That's all the details you have. What do you do?

Why is my proposition inadequate?

1) Take the deal - innocent until proven guilty.

2) Investigate the complaint.

3) If valid, pay back the money and pull the banner.

4) If invalid, keep the money, lol.

 

[amandajm]

But there are no 250k deals in this industry unless you are selling a well established website. A 250k media buy is absurd.

Would you sign the 2k deal? - that's what I'm getting at. That's a realistic situation.

The original question is sound - Can a portal/watchdog take advertising money and take a stand on principle for the player in EVERY situation that arises?

Who is right? Caruso or Jetset?

 

[spearmaster]

The original question is sound - Can a portal/watchdog take advertising money and take a stand on principle for the player in EVERY situation that arises?

A portal/watchdog/webmaster cannot possibly take a stand on principle for the player in EVERY situation that arises, if only because in some cases the player is clearly wrong and the casino is clearly right.

I think Meister has done a pretty good job meeting the principle you are trying to establish here, and I would hope that I did the same when I was running a portal.

Someone offering me 250K is simply not going to happen, nor will it happen for any gambling portal, including the top five portals. It is unrealistic to believe that any casino will cough up more than 20K for any online media buy at any one time.

So, let's get the example a little closer to real life. I can honestly assure you that 2-20K would not influence any of the big webmasters, and would not have influenced me either (most I think I turned down was 10K though - but that was the largest deal offered to me).

Offer me 250K, I'd be an idiot not to at least think about it. Offer me a mil, and I won't just give you a media buy - I'd hand the site over in a flash, not even one sec thinking about that. So yes, I suppose I have a price - but it is unrealistic that anyone would even begin to consider such a price so why should we discuss a scenario that can never occur?

 

[jetset]

Good post, Ted.

Taking the position that the player is right on EVERY occasion is imo no different to automatically assuming that the casino is ALWAYS right - it is not fair and it is not balanced, and that is what really good and responsible watchdog portalmasters strive for; to be prepared to support the legitimate cause...or criticise and condemn the party at fault and seek redress for wrongs.

In between those two polarities lie many grey areas where fault may not be as clearcut, other circumstances supervene or wrongdoing is shared. The good watchdog is able to assess both possibilities and sort the wheat from the chaff without getting prematurely superheated and negative toward either side.

In my opinion Casinomeister is one of the best exponents of this principle, and the fact that Bryan has in the past actually rejected lucrative (although perhaps not in the 250K range LOL) advertising from sub-standard operators reinforces that integrity. He's fired the asses of bad practice advertisers, too and that should be remembered by his critics. No hypothetical case there.

Taking advertising does not, contrary to some of the opinions I've seen expressed by a few players, presuppose that the webmaster is a whore, not to be trusted, is vulnerable to corruption or will not fight to get a just player's case resolved. That imo is entirely dependent on the integrity of the individual webmaster.

If Caruso has started a website that takes advertising, there will inevitably be times when he is criticised or his principles and responsibility are put to practical test. When that happens, if he can match Bryan's, and for that matter Ted's reputations in this area (despite the occasional and rather petty criticisms levelled at them) he will be doing well.

None of us (and I encompass the whole forum in that) are perfect, but I would hope that most of us try to be fair.

 

[jetset]

Just to lighten things up a little on this pleasant Sunday morning, Spear's comments in his final par bring to mind an anecdote relating to (I think) George Bernard Shaw.

Paraphrased, during a mild dining argument he asked a society hostess whether she would sleep with him for GBP 10, to which she replied with an offended negative.

He then asked whether she would sleep with him for GBP 100 and received a similarly indignant response.

When he upped the ante to a substantially larger figure the socialite started to equivocate and asked him if he thought her a whore, to which he replied with some amusement: "Madam, we have already established that...we are now negotiating price!"

 

[caruso]

A portal/watchdog/webmaster cannot possibly take a stand on principle for the player in EVERY situation that arises, if only because in some cases the player is clearly wrong and the casino is clearly right.

??

Nobody asked that. The question was taking a stand on principle for the player, ie. when the player is in the right. Nobody is suggesting a stand when the player is in the wrong - other than obviously telling the player to take a hike. No idea where that came from.

The question was "Can a portal/watchdog take advertising money and take a stand on principle for the player in EVERY situation that arises?"

I gave an example, which I'll mellow down to more realistic levels: 2K media buy, otherwise "reputable" casino tries to screw player out of a $50 bonus for casino-speak "bonus abuse" using "we reserve the right" etc.

Stress here in the light of apparent misunderstandings arising: the player is in the RIGHT.

1) If they refuse to pay, what do you do?

2) If they pay with some lame-ass excuse, having stated their "we reserve the right" copout as justification, what do you do? I DON'T mean a genuine misunderstanding. I mean where the casino tries it on then does a U-turn.

If you can't answer "pull them" to question 1)...enough said, LOL.

Question 2) is valid, because though paying, the casino has declared its hand and can no longer be considered reputable.

 

[spearmaster]

Nice one Jetset! LOL...

To keep it brief: Whether or not the casino was previously reputable or not is moot. If they withheld a payment claming "we reserve the right" and the player met the terms and conditions of whatever promotion it was, their advertising would have been off of Got2Bet (or Awesome Jackpots) in the seconds immediately following receipt of email or phone call.

My contracts also held a clause that said "I reserve the right" to cancel advertising at my own discretion without refund should such a situation arise. Fortunately, I never had to invoke that clause.

As you can see, it takes two to tango

 

[Simmo!]

If a casino is prepared to shaft a player, then they are obviously just as likely to shaft an affiliate. And vice-versa. So irresepective of the moral issues at stake, a webmaster would surely be shooting himself in the foot anyway representing them would he not?

A good webmaster will have more than one casino (group) vying for position on his/her site, so ditch the one that can't be trusted and talk to another. If one values the exposure at $10k, there's likely to be another.

As an aside, i had actually read "Can a portal/watchdog take advertising money and take a stand on principle for the player in EVERY situation that arises?" as meaning the webmaster will always back up the player in every situation (that arises) I'm relieved to see it doesn't mean quite what i thought it meant as, and pointed out above, situations vary.

 

[amandajm]

Always a fascinating discussion for me. Had it many times and am always open to suggestion. Jetset pre-empted a later post of mine that would entail mention of the film

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The paltry sum I got sold on for is private

Of course, standing up for a rogue player any more than hoping they get reasonable nourishment in jail is beyond me.