City Club - Reduced my win

Hazzab

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Location
AUS
Hi,

I'm new here (Hi everyone!) and hopeful I can get some advice please!

I recently received a $300 bonus from City Club Casino, at the time I had just lost a few hundred dollars and my balance was close to $0 (I had depositied several thousand dollars to their City Club and City Tower branded casinos over a few weeks). Upon meeting the conditions for wagering, I withdrew my maximum payout (20xbonus) of $6000. The bonus amount was removed and no longer appeared in the bonuses table in their cashier section. Upon a reverse withdrawal of this money I proceeded to win and withdraw $55,000.

City Club are now saying that my max entitled payout is $6000.- they are saying that the bonus (despite wagering conditions being met and the withdrawal being approved) is perpetual as "my winnings were derived from a bonus" and applies to my reverse withdrawal. I reason that if $6000 were my winnings and on my way to my bank account, and the bonus conditions had been met, and the bonus had been removed, that i am entitled to reverse the withdrawal and bet unrestricted.

Their Terms and Conditions do not deal with this at all. Please Help.

HazzaB

- To City Club's credit they have paid the $6000
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
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CAG
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Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
This casino has always been quite shady and had issues discussed in this forum years ago. I cant recall whether they were removed from the accredited list or were branded as 'proceed with caution'. The way I see it and I am sure many members will too is that since all WRs have been met you can play unrestricted and all winnings should be yours. Their reasoning is flawed. If they had paid you first and then you deposited and won would they then not argue that you have money in hand because you won from their bonus previously and hence your winnings are bound by the max for the previous bonus.

Meanwhile, I believe they were not too cooperative in discussing player issues and that was before Max came on the scene. So I am not sure whether a PAB will really help. No harm trying though but you must read the FAQs first and stop posting if you take this course of action.
 

Jennifer

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
Location
canada
ouch! 55k to 6k. That has to hurt omg I would cry into my pillow.

I sinscerely hope you can work something out with them
 

Hazzab

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Location
AUS
Thanks Chuchu, I was sure that was the case.

I'll go through the PAB process with my fingers crossed. Unfortunately I played with them before I knew about this site (only found this place while searching for similar complaints). Thanks again mate.
 

mattsgame

Meister Member
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Location
Out Of Town
Hi,

I'm new here (Hi everyone!) and hopeful I can get some advice please!

I recently received a $300 bonus from City Club Casino, at the time I had just lost a few hundred dollars and my balance was close to $0 (I had depositied several thousand dollars to their City Club and City Tower branded casinos over a few weeks). Upon meeting the conditions for wagering, I withdrew my maximum payout (20xbonus) of $6000. The bonus amount was removed and no longer appeared in the bonuses table in their cashier section. Upon a reverse withdrawal of this money I proceeded to win and withdraw $55,000.

City Club are now saying that my max entitled payout is $6000.- they are saying that the bonus (despite wagering conditions being met and the withdrawal being approved) is perpetual as "my winnings were derived from a bonus" and applies to my reverse withdrawal. I reason that if $6000 were my winnings and on my way to my bank account, and the bonus conditions had been met, and the bonus had been removed, that i am entitled to reverse the withdrawal and bet unrestricted.

Their Terms and Conditions do not deal with this at all. Please Help.

HazzaB

- To City Club's credit they have paid the $6000

I cannot see the bonus you are refering to on their site, but I did read the welcome bonus terms which I am guessing are similiar to your issue .

This bonus is given in good faith by City Club Casino in order to familiarize yourself with what we have to offer, therefore, the winnings for this bonus are set to a maximum of ten (10X) times your first deposit.

Albeit yours was 20x the bonus, I am afraid the casino is in the right if this term exists. The max cash-out on a persons money is rubbish but if its in the terms then you have to abide by them.

I am afraid that most casinos will not count a reversal as a fresh deposit, so you are still bound by the original terms. The only ones I can think of that used too were Rival casinos but I would not bother with them at this time.

BTW if you liked them because they use Playtech, There are plenty on Playtech casinos without this silly max cash out rule.

This is going to be a very painful 55k lesson and I am sorry about that as that is an awesome win.

Cheers

Matt

Edit:
Meanwhile, I believe they were not too cooperative in discussing player issues and that was before Max came on the scene. So I am not sure whether a PAB will really help. No harm trying though but you must read the FAQs first and stop posting if you take this course of action.

City Club Casino is on the No Can Do List I am afraid
 

Hazzab

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Location
AUS
I cannot see the bonus you are refering to on their site, but I did read the welcome bonus terms which I am guessing are similiar to your issue .

This bonus is given in good faith by City Club Casino in order to familiarize yourself with what we have to offer, therefore, the winnings for this bonus are set to a maximum of ten (10X) times your first deposit.

Albeit yours was 20x the bonus, I am afraid the casino is in the right if this term exists. The max cash-out on a persons money is rubbish but if its in the terms then you have to abide by them.

I am afraid that most casinos will not count a reversal as a fresh deposit, so you are still bound by the original terms. The only ones I can think of that used too were Rival casinos but I would't not bother with them at this time.

BTW if you liked them because they use Playtech, There are plenty on Playtech casinos without this silly max cash out rule.

This is going to be a very painful 55k lesson and I am sorry about that as that is an awesome win.

Cheers

Matt
Thanks for the advice Matt, I'm actually arguin that the reverse was subsequent to the requirement being fulfilled and the bonus removed. Surely they can't continue to carry the terms on that?
 

mattsgame

Meister Member
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Location
Out Of Town
Thanks for the advice Matt, I'm actually arguin that the reverse was subsequent to the requirement being fulfilled and the bonus removed. Surely they can't continue to carry the terms on that?

Unfortunately they can, and this outfit probably will..

Take a free chip from RTG as an example..(I know yours was a deposit) They give you $20 with 30x wr and 20x max cash out ($400) If you manage to make the WR you can withdraw $400, if you reverse that $400 you are still bound by the original terms of the max cash out of $400.
 

Hazzab

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Location
AUS
Unfortunately they can, and this outfit probably will..

Take a free chip from RTG as an example..(I know yours was a deposit) They give you $20 with 30x wr and 20x max cash out ($400) If you manage to make the WR you can withdraw $400, if you reverse that $400 you are still bound by the original terms of the max cash out of $400.

Wow, I haven't ver had this issue anywhere else. Dodgy indeed.
 

LaHutti

Sr. ÜberUnter Ass. Man.
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East and West
Yep, we've seen it before, unfortunately.
It is probably THE stupidest rule around (closely followed by a few other ones, like the student rule, and such), since the money is all yours, and you should be allowed to do what you want with it.
Stupid stupid stupid, and should be a lesson to ALL, never to reverse a withdrawal, when a bonus has been in play.
I sincerely feel for you mate, and you have every right to the money in my opinion....but unfortunately my opinion doesn't count much in your case.
 

Hazzab

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Location
AUS
Yep, we've seen it before, unfortunately.
It is probably THE stupidest rule around (closely followed by a few other ones, like the student rule, and such), since the money is all yours, and you should be allowed to do what you want with it.
Stupid stupid stupid, and should be a lesson to ALL, never to reverse a withdrawal, when a bonus has been in play.
I sincerely feel for you mate, and you have every right to the money in my opinion....but unfortunately my opinion doesn't count much in your case.

Thanks, it's an ordinary situation. I did ask them to send me the condition that applies to this (from their T's and C's) which they haven't. But from the sounds of things, that might not matter.
It's a fairly small minded approach that some of these casinos have. I am generally a big money player and (should they do the right thing, be it even morally) then repeat business would ultimately see things swing in their favour eventually. Instead they throw drive their clients away as soon as they win.
 

Hazzab

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Location
AUS
I forgot to add another kicker to this whole affair - they waited 6 days to tell me all of this!
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
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CAG
PABinit
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Yep, we've seen it before, unfortunately.
It is probably THE stupidest rule around (closely followed by a few other ones, like the student rule, and such), since the money is all yours, and you should be allowed to do what you want with it.
Stupid stupid stupid, and should be a lesson to ALL, never to reverse a withdrawal, when a bonus has been in play.
I sincerely feel for you mate, and you have every right to the money in my opinion....but unfortunately my opinion doesn't count much in your case.

Buddy, You are wrong in saying your opinion doesnt count. When the gambling community opines the same as you this might be taken as a requisite when regulation comes into effect. Right now, casinos interpret their terms in any way they wish and throw common sense out of the window. They are not accountable to anyone but their owners who are only interested in their profit margins. Actually, which casino wouldnt want players to reverse their withdrawals and continue playing? At the very least they save on processing costs and the player pulls the slots earlier rather than later.

So dont believe your opinion does not matter though it may take time before momentum builds up.
 

chayton

aka LooHoo
webmeister
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Jun 5, 2006
Location
Edmonton Canada
Well City Club may be a crap casino, but sorry to say that it's not just rogue casinos - most casinos who have a max cashout rule do this exact same thing. I don't think I know of a single casino that allows you to reverse a WD and use it as a fresh deposit when there's a max cashout, but if anyone knows of one I'd love to hear about it.
 

mattsgame

Meister Member
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Out Of Town
Well City Club may be a crap casino, but sorry to say that it's not just rogue casinos - most casinos who have a max cashout rule do this exact same thing. I don't think I know of a single casino that allows you to reverse a WD and use it as a fresh deposit when there's a max cashout, but if anyone knows of one I'd love to hear about it.

As I mentioned previously, the only group of casino/s I could think of was Rival..but yer....:machinegu
 

LaHutti

Sr. ÜberUnter Ass. Man.
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Buddy, You are wrong in saying your opinion doesnt count. When the gambling community opines the same as you this might be taken as a requisite when regulation comes into effect. Right now, casinos interpret their terms in any way they wish and throw common sense out of the window. They are not accountable to anyone but their owners who are only interested in their profit margins. Actually, which casino wouldnt want players to reverse their withdrawals and continue playing? At the very least they save on processing costs and the player pulls the slots earlier rather than later.

So dont believe your opinion does not matter though it may take time before momentum builds up.

I agree.
What I meant to say was, that unfortunately my opinion won't do this poor guy any good in getting his winnings, right here and now.
You betcha I'll keep airing my opinions tho ;)
 

LaHutti

Sr. ÜberUnter Ass. Man.
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Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Location
East and West
Well City Club may be a crap casino, but sorry to say that it's not just rogue casinos - most casinos who have a max cashout rule do this exact same thing. I don't think I know of a single casino that allows you to reverse a WD and use it as a fresh deposit when there's a max cashout, but if anyone knows of one I'd love to hear about it.

The fact that a LOT of people don't stop at a red light, doesn't make it right.
This is again, a stupid stupid rule, and I can not for the life of me see WHY they have it, other than being able to steal peoples winnings, OR that the software isn't random, and plays differently until a cashout has been fully executed, hence they don't want you to keep playing (and winning).
I can see, that if you haven't requested a cashout, and still have the bonus to play with, that they would be right in saying that 10 or 20 or whatever times the bonus amount is max, but AFTER a withdrawal request, and AFTER the bonus money has been removed....just plain stupid, and borderline theft imho.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
This is complete bullshit of the highest order. They allowed the reversal even though it was impossible for the player to win more. A reputable casino would either block reversals under such circumstances, or see the withdrawal as full satisfaction of the conditions placed on the bonus.

This is nothing about style of play, bonus abuse, this is purely a technicality that is being used to confiscate the win, a technicality that doesn't even get mentioned as one in the terms and conditions. Surely under the same technicality "perpetual" means the player can never win again, as until the whole $6000 has been lost back to the casino, all further deposits are derived from this win, and thus subject to the perpetual cap.

Virtual group use a similar trick, and where a player takes a bonus with a max cashout and loses it all, all their future deposits without a bonus are also treated as subject to the cap, and they claim this is because players will "deliberately lose with the bonus" and then deposit without one and make the games "compensate to RTP" by deliberately trying to win, and thus "abuse the bonus". Complete bullshit, but they said it, and it's in their smallprint (even if the explanation isn't).

It is what happens when players take a chance with the shadier operators and have the nerve to win, they are treated like undesirables thereafter, and the primary objective of the casino is to claw back as much of the win as possible, and by any means they can get away with. The only people with the power to put a stop to this happily look the other way and pocket their fees.
 

dutchplayer

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Location
netherlands
don,t play there!

Hi,

I'm new here (Hi everyone!) and hopeful I can get some advice please!

I recently received a $300 bonus from City Club Casino, at the time I had just lost a few hundred dollars and my balance was close to $0 (I had depositied several thousand dollars to their City Club and City Tower branded casinos over a few weeks). Upon meeting the conditions for wagering, I withdrew my maximum payout (20xbonus) of $6000. The bonus amount was removed and no longer appeared in the bonuses table in their cashier section. Upon a reverse withdrawal of this money I proceeded to win and withdraw $55,000.

City Club are now saying that my max entitled payout is $6000.- they are saying that the bonus (despite wagering conditions being met and the withdrawal being approved) is perpetual as "my winnings were derived from a bonus" and applies to my reverse withdrawal. I reason that if $6000 were my winnings and on my way to my bank account, and the bonus conditions had been met, and the bonus had been removed, that i am entitled to reverse the withdrawal and bet unrestricted.

Their Terms and Conditions do not deal with this at all. Please Help.

HazzaB

- To City Club's credit they have paid the $6000

Hello Hazza, I had the same few years ago! make a withdraw of 2500 euro,and they removed it from my account! since then I closed my account in this bad criminal casino also City tower casino. I read that you deposit a lot there, If you read about this casino,in casinoforums,and other casino sites, the rating from this casino etc etc. you never make so many deposits there! this casino City club and City tower casino,must closed! also warnings about this casino,at casinomeister site!
 

bpb

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
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This rule exists in order to trap customers who exercise common sense, rather than exercising judgment with the assumption that your average online casino will do almost anything to avoid a payout. What the casino loses in unnecessary payout/deposit fees, they gain back tenfold in denying a payout like this. The casino gets to have a total freeroll ... you can't win anything, but you can lose your entire balance.

Sadly, it's not just rogue casinos that do this. Many accredited ones will run the same gambit. Anytime you're playing with a max cashout restriction, make sure that you withdraw/play your balance down to absolute $0. Don't leave even 5 cents in there.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
This rule exists in order to trap customers who exercise common sense, rather than exercising judgment with the assumption that your average online casino will do almost anything to avoid a payout. What the casino loses in unnecessary payout/deposit fees, they gain back tenfold in denying a payout like this. The casino gets to have a total freeroll ... you can't win anything, but you can lose your entire balance.

Sadly, it's not just rogue casinos that do this. Many accredited ones will run the same gambit. Anytime you're playing with a max cashout restriction, make sure that you withdraw/play your balance down to absolute $0. Don't leave even 5 cents in there.

The "rogueness" of this way of doing things really becomes clear when you see how casinos treat players that insist on withdrawing at the end of each session, only to deposit again the next day. One operator reason for having a reversal hold is to give players the chance to change their minds the next day and reverse, rather than have to redeposit. The operator argues this helps them save on fees.

The bullshit is in this case, where they used a reversal hold which was designed to give the player plenty of time to change their mind, and then when they use this opportunity as intended, screw them on a technicality out of over 40K. Had this casino paid immediately, the OP would have had to redeposit, and would not have been able to reverse, and thus could not have had the win voided on such a technicality. Some casinos go further, and prevent a deposit being made when a withdrawal is sitting in the reversal period, this gives players like the OP no choice but to reverse part of the withdrawal in order to play again.

Common sense plays no part, the casino seizes a valid (according to the rules) opportunity to save itself over 40K, and takes it. This will more than cover the extra fees encountered by the players that use their experience and judgement to pedantically follow procedure, even though it conflicts with common sense, as after all it is the casino that eats the extra fees, and the player gains by depriving them of this technicality.

Operators should bear this in mind when they bitch about players often being reluctant to leave funds in their accounts where they intend to play again in a day or two, but redeposit almost as soon as their withdrawal gets paid. Apart from worries about the casino account being a less safe place to store funds than an ewallet, it is the only way players can be 100% certain that they have removed a bonus related restriction from their past play. Casinos that don't require a withdrawal in order to have a restriction cleared also suffer, because once a player has been "done" by this kind of technicality, or hears of another falling victim, they become extra careful in their own behaviour to the extent of mitigating problems that don't exist at the particular casino they play at.

I usually either bust out or withdraw at the end of the day, it is rare for me to leave a significant balance in overnight once any WR have been cleared. I am mainly thinking of the longer pending periods that only start once the withdrawal has been initiated rather than the casino shafting me on this kind of technicality. This is because almost all my play is at Microgaming, where such technicalities are not used.

At RTG, I am experienced enough to know that the ONLY way to treat a max cashout bonus is to cash out the winnings, and only play with a fresh deposit, no matter what reversal deals may be offered. If it costs them extra processing fees, tough!
 

Hazzab

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Location
AUS
Thanks to everyone for the advice and sympathy. I think a good point was raised about common sense. As far as I am aware, in areas of contractual ambiguity (at least in Australia), a common sense principle is applied. Having requested the wording of the term or condition that applies to this case to be e-mailed to me and (despite being told it would) nothing has arrived, it wouldn't be the toughest to get a judge in this country to rule in favour of the player on those grounds - I think the case would be won on them truthfully answering VWM's assertion that they would have kept my winnings had I lost them.

Unfortunately, we're talking about a dodgy organisation in a gambling haven but I'd be happy to be part of any collective that wanted to challenge this ridiculous, unwritten "rule" and have it stopped once and for all.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Thanks to everyone for the advice and sympathy. I think a good point was raised about common sense. As far as I am aware, in areas of contractual ambiguity (at least in Australia), a common sense principle is applied. Having requested the wording of the term or condition that applies to this case to be e-mailed to me and (despite being told it would) nothing has arrived, it wouldn't be the toughest to get a judge in this country to rule in favour of the player on those grounds - I think the case would be won on them truthfully answering VWM's assertion that they would have kept my winnings had I lost them.

Unfortunately, we're talking about a dodgy organisation in a gambling haven but I'd be happy to be part of any collective that wanted to challenge this ridiculous, unwritten "rule" and have it stopped once and for all.

This is why such operators like to be located in places like Costa Rica and Panama. Although most countries' courts would rule in the player's favour, it would have no effect on such an operator as said courts do not have jurisdiction over them.

It is not just better regulation that is needed, but some common international standards that all regulators promise to uphold. This could be a long way off, especially for the internet. Land based businesses can still locate offshore and get away with a fair bit, so even getting international agreements for this has yet to happen. The internet may never be properly regulated in it's current form. Players have to fight the best they can, and the main effective weapon they have is publicity, as like the gambling companies, the internet is beyond the jurisdiction of court orders that might require defaming content to be removed.

The UK recently had an issue with "super injunctions" that gagged the press and even ordinary people in the country, but that could do nothing to stop the suppressed information and speculation from being openly distributed over the internet via sites not based in the UK.

In the 1980's the government tried to ban the book "Spycatcher" from being published under "national security" concerns, but the author moved to Australia, and published there, and the book was freely available everywhere except the UK, and entered the UK via mail order. This was long before the internet, and the UK couldn't even persuade the Australian government to ban the book, let alone the rest of the world.
 

chayton

aka LooHoo
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The fact that a LOT of people don't stop at a red light, doesn't make it right.
This is again, a stupid stupid rule, and I can not for the life of me see WHY they have it, other than being able to steal peoples winnings, OR that the software isn't random, and plays differently until a cashout has been fully executed, hence they don't want you to keep playing (and winning).
I can see, that if you haven't requested a cashout, and still have the bonus to play with, that they would be right in saying that 10 or 20 or whatever times the bonus amount is max, but AFTER a withdrawal request, and AFTER the bonus money has been removed....just plain stupid, and borderline theft imho.

It definitely sucks - once the bonus has been cleared and excess funds removed then the money SHOULD belong to the player to either withdraw or continue to play with as they see fit. Totally agree with that, but unfortunately most casinos don't see it that way - even some of the MG casinos are putting a cap on ND freebies these days, I got a mystery bonus dealio at Ruby Fortune awhile back that had a max cashout of $100. :rolleyes:
 
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