Cipher- The Wizard of BJ

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QUOTE: "I'd want to see the original documents from WB prior to that." That might be a bad idea.

Cipher

Why would it be a bad idea Cipher? While I believe that WB has told the truth, any person in their right mind would want to see original and undoctored documentation prior to sticking their own neck out.

What could there possibly be that would make me think that what you have done is okay? Or looking at it from another angle...that WB is not 100% totally within his rights to demand his money back. There is only one possibility that pops into my mind...and that would be if WB sent you money with full and complete knowledge that you were going to be using that money to defraud other people. Again, with his knowledge. In a case like that, then you would both be guilty as hell. And while it wouldn't change my view on what you've done, it would certainly make me look at WB in a new light, and not a favourable one.

Cipher, stop skirting the issue...if there is something that you think we should know (that we don't already), then spit it out.

The money itself isn't in dispute, nor the amount owing ($17,600). So the only issue left that is in any way debatable is the purpose of the original investment. Again, if you have something to add...we're waiting.
 
General Note: Irrespective of your "side" on this issue, and I appreciate this is an emotional topic, please keep to adult debate. You can get your point over without the need to regress in doing so :thumbsup:

Cheers

Simmo!

Footnote: Meister has been over here in london this past week.
 
General Note: Irrespective of your "side" on this issue, and I appreciate this is an emotional topic, please keep to adult debate. You can get your point over without the need to regress in doing so :thumbsup:

Cheers

Simmo!

Agreed Simmo. It's hard for me though, I think I'm still 16, lol. :D
 
General Note: Irrespective of your "side" on this issue, and I appreciate this is an emotional topic, please keep to adult debate. You can get your point over without the need to regress in doing so :thumbsup:

Cheers

Simmo!

Footnote: Meister has been over here in london this past week.

Hi Simmo,

Not taking offense, but how do you call a crook a crook in a civil manner? :)

There is only one side - the guy got scammed. The other side is a guy scammed him. If Cipher was a casino he would be in the rogue hall of fame.

Stanford.
 
Careful what you wish for

Cipher why dont you just save everyone a headache and jump off of your roof

I wouldn't suggest that. If this guy is a compulsive gambler and I suspect that is at the root of all this, then he might just do it. Remember that guy that shot himself at the blackjack table in Detroit. "Your just killing me" he said to the dealer and then blew himself away.

Cipher is a low life - but with help he may be worthwhile some day. I don't want him to kill himself. I just want him to make amends. That's the start to healing.

Stanford
 
NOTICE: It has come to my attention that one DAMIAN DUNLAP has (on the behalf of one TIM BELL) chosen to post a video on his site (
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) with regards issues to a dispute between CIPHER and TIM BELL.

I actually signed up to PU to watch this video...here's the link for everyone's amusement
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edit...especially in the end that's too much ha ha
 
I actually signed up to PU to watch this video...here's the link for everyone's amusement
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I caught the Slotchik/Casinomeister one and nearly wet myself! The guy is hilarious... I love the gangsta-style words and language, interspersed with quite mundane points - in the nice neat office. It's like a cross between fiddy cent and David Brent (Michael Scott for American audiences).

I have no opinion on what these people are doing/trying to do or any of that nonsense and best of luck to them - but to the casual observer - it's hilarious!

As for Cipher... The usual smoke and mirrors, the usual BS - and the usual skirting round the issue... Well and truly outed - game over.
 
Admin Warning

Also interesting...has anyone noticed... Bryan, CM has not elected to comment in this thread, perhaps not wishing to get entangled?
Tomorrow is my first day of work after being absent (from here) last week.

To echo Simmos! comment - this thread will spiral into a load of crap (and be upgraded to closed) if any further name-calling occurs. If you want to tell people to jump off roofs or to go fuck themselves, do it somewhere else. Keep focused on the issues - not on your emotions. Thank you.
 
I caught the Slotchik/Casinomeister one and nearly wet myself! The guy is hilarious... I love the gangsta-style words and language, interspersed with quite mundane points - in the nice neat office. It's like a cross between fiddy cent and David Brent (Michael Scott for American audiences).

I have no opinion on what these people are doing/trying to do or any of that nonsense and best of luck to them - but to the casual observer - it's hilarious!

As for Cipher... The usual smoke and mirrors, the usual BS - and the usual skirting round the issue... Well and truly outed - game over.


Damn, that was a freaking great video Damian made, time to break it down for Cipher ..........:lolup:

You go Damian...:thumbsup:
 
The first priority should be the recovery of the debt, which is a civil matter. Criminal charges should be secondary.


He could go this way GrandMaster but if he wanted to try and collect anything above the original $20K invested he could not collect on the Punitive damages because Punitive damages are never awarded in a civil case under contract law in the US. If he did in fact have a contract with Cipher verbal or written, WB would need to prusue a Criminal case against Cipher if he wanted to try and collect excess monies above 20K.

In a civil case under tort law, there is a possibility of punitive damages, if the defendant's conduct is egregious and had either (1) a malicious intent (i.e., desire to cause harm), or (2) gross negligence (i.e., conscious indifference), or (3) a willful disregard for the rights of others.

Just so you know I totally agree with you that he should not take advice from any one of us, he needs to just speak with a good attorney asap and be advised from there.

What I know about the law and cases here in the US is solely based on all the background I have had in contract law, being in the Construction and Real Estate Industry for the last 27 years you spend a lot of time in the courtroom and in meetings with attorneys and DA's offices when you work for a large construction company in an executive capacity.
 
Just so you know I totally agree with you that he should not take advice from any one of us, he needs to just speak with a good attorney asap and be advised from there.

That is the best advice. A forum or message board serves the purpose of getting the word out and exposing a fraudster to the community, but beyond that..you are best seeking legal advice for your specific problem. WB has been given many different options of following this up legally. I definitely hope he looks into all of them.

What strikes me as really sad about this whole thing is that we have shady casinos who rip off players (and affiliates), and we have shady players/affiliates who try to rip off casinos. It now looks like we have a forum member/player who screwed over a fellow player. That truly sucks.
 
Fat Lady hasn't sung

What strikes me as really sad about this whole thing is that we have shady casinos who rip off players (and affiliates), and we have shady players/affiliates who try to rip off casinos. It now looks like we have a forum member/player who screwed over a fellow player. That truly sucks.

What is sad is the fat lady isn't singing. Cipher isn't expressing contrition. On the contrary, he is still selling his scamsystem. There are going to be other desparate people that get there money stolen.

That's why I am not sure we should wait. It might be time for many of us to contact the FBI independently and have this guy investigated.

We have all given Cipher far to much lattitude because he was a player advocate at one time. But he is still a scamster. And he is still scaming as we speak.

You know, often times the only way for a person to get out of the denial stage is for people to be brutally frank about their activity. I think Cipher may well be a gambling addict and we might actually being doing him a favor by pushing him closer to the bottom.

Stanford.
 
What is sad is the fat lady isn't singing. Cipher isn't expressing contrition. On the contrary, he is still selling his scamsystem. There are going to be other desparate people that get there money stolen.

I agree on that Stanford, absolutely. Which is why I mentioned the webpage, which if laden with enough of the proper keywords, would be brought up anytime someone went searching for blackjack or blackjack systems (or Cipher for that matter). But again, I still would want to see the actual proof first, ie. emails, agreement, cheque, etc. And I'd want to make sure it was authentic.
 
Cipher is the proof

I agree on that Stanford, absolutely. Which is why I mentioned the webpage, which if laden with enough of the proper keywords, would be brought up anytime someone went searching for blackjack or blackjack systems (or Cipher for that matter). But again, I still would want to see the actual proof first, ie. emails, agreement, cheque, etc. And I'd want to make sure it was authentic.

Your idea for a webpage is an excellent idea.

Proof is out there. Go to WOL where he offers to pay back the money in $500 installments and then withdraws the offer.

Even without this player, the guys is a conman. Go to his website and review his own material that he tries to represent his system will give a player an edge for a mere $1,000. It's snake oil.

Go to Blackjackinfo.com and see what real blackjack professionals say. Particularly that guy posting as Qfit. That's Norm Wattenberger. He has forgotten more about blackjack and simulation software than most of us will ever know. Many if not most blackjack professionals use Casino Verite software written by Norm.

If you want an independent answer, pop over to Arnold Snyder's site and just post the link to Cipher's system and ask if it is legit. They won't be kind with the answer.

There really isn't any doubt about Cipher. The only question is his motivation. If it is a gambling addiction, there is hope he can make amends. But first he has to admit his addiction.

Stanford
 
Cipher, GAME is OVER mate....
You do what you ve always done right....
Not answering to any question asked....
I do not thnk you ll ever have the time to clean your name from this.

Have a good one.....
 
I've seen it all Stanford. When I spoke of proof, I meant as it relates to Westland Bowl's issue with Cipher directly. Besides posts on a forum.

I really wish that anyone else who has been hoodwinked in the same manner as Westland Bowl would come forward and verify that Cipher has indeed done this to more than one person. The only conclusion I can draw is that they are refraining from doing so on legal advice, or, they still hold out hope that Cipher may pay them. Or, I guess it's always possible they don't exist at all. But I vote for one or two.
 
But again, I still would want to see the actual proof first, ie. emails, agreement, cheque, etc. And I'd want to make sure it was authentic.

Stanford, I think what Pinababy69 meant to say is that WB/Tim Bell is holding this back as not to expose his evidence wide open to the public eye, i.e. the cheque and initial email agreements with Bruce Holway (cipher). We're just seeing the after effects not what was initially exchanged.
Anyway, I'm off wish the OP the best. Maybe it's time to take a break from this issue, until concrete action is taken?
 
Stanford, I think what Pinababy69 meant to say is that WB/Tim Bell is holding this back as not to expose his evidence wide open to the public eye, i.e. the cheque and initial email agreements with Bruce Holway (cipher). We're just seeing the after effects not what was initially exchanged.
Anyway, I'm off wish the OP the best. Maybe it's time to take a break from this issue, until concrete action is taken?

Yeah, I didn't want to lay out my cards (oh my, a pun!) on the table just yet. Though I did send a couple of people a particular email in which the agreement was spelled out.

Yes, what more is there to add? Cipher has shown himself and the people can judge for themselves if he's legit or not. Cement action will be taken sometime soon.
 
IMO Cipher is nothing but a con man based on what i have read. I wonder how many thousands of $ he bilked people out of. Must be in the hundreds of thousands. If what i read is true he is the scum of scum and should try to hook up with Warren Cloud.
 
Cipher on that other website - one of the millions I'm trying to keep track of said:
NOTICE: It has come to my attention that one DAMIAN DUNLAP has (on the behalf of one TIM BELL) chosen to post a video on his site (www.playerunion.com) with regards issues to a dispute between CIPHER and TIM BELL.

1) You (TIM BELL) are hereby made aware of the existence of such video.

2) The continued display of the aforementioned video shall serve as evidence of your knowledge of said video.

3) You will thereby be considered as a co-conspirator in those same acts of Damian Dunlap with regards the display of said video.

No further warning will be given.

Cipher

Just reading through this again - it's HILARIOUS!!!! Has Cipher got away with feeding everyone liquid BS for so long, he thinks people will lap up anything!?!? I mean - read the thing... Heh heh - It's RIDICULOUS! "You will thereby be considered as a co-conspirator etc " :lolup:

I mean, Cipher, reading through the myriad of history that has unsurprisingly suddenly turned up in Google under your name - this is a piss poor attempt - even by your recent standards.

Listen, we all know you're sat scared, pondering the enormity of your crimes - and waiting for the inevitable knock on the door. Why not come clean now and at least regain some shred of decency - it can only help you in the long run.

Alternatively -- please continue this farcical behaviour! Makes great comedy for the casual observer like me :thumbsup:
 
Cipher:

Please take notice of this hereby, herewith, hereforto message posted upon this veritable notice board on this day of January 2007 (Two thousand and seven) that I will hereby, herewith, hearing aid continue to find all future postings by "CIPHER" (You, yes YOU!) (Aforementioned poster of mentioned previously bulletin board malarkey) from hereon onwards - find all postings to continue to be as absurd as they are hysterical.

So speaketh me today on this day in January (the one that comes after December) in the year of 2007 (2007) (Two Thousand and Seven)

Amen.

Should you wish, require, desire me to cease and desist in finding everything you type hilarious - you have one hour (Sixty minutes, comprising each of sixty seconds) to comply.

No further warning will be given*
















Unless I decide to post something immediately afterwards when my fear/ego/sheer panic takes over **











































** Help.
 
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