Casinos: Offer the option of half-back on the house edge instead of bonuses?

zreb

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currently in US
As pretty much everyone here knows, most online casinos offer a slew of percentage based deposit bonuses as promotions for their players. +150% on initial deposits, weekly addons, new game specials, so on and on, you get some extra money to play with in exchange for depositing at the casino.

But over the years, those bonuses have come with more and more strings attached, more restrictions, and higher wagering requirements. Many choose to avoid these bonuses altogether rather than dealing with large wagering requirements and reading through pages of terms and conditions. While most casinos do offer "comp point" systems, they are usually nearly worthless and are applied to both bonus and non-bonus play anyway.

So, I was wondering if casinos are able or willing to offer an alternative - returning players a fraction (half?) of the expected house edge for what they wager on a given game (whether in $ or in equivalent comp points).

This has some advantages - for one, unlike bonuses, it's usually impossible for a casino to be "beaten" with such a system. That means they don't have to worry about advantage players or anyone else having an edge against them.

In turn, this means they could offer this to players without any sort of restrictions, wagering requirements, prohibited games, maximum bets and so on. I would think such a system would appeal to those who deposit without bonuses anyway to avoid the hassle.

Additionally, as a player, there are times when I might have completed a wagering requirement and want to keep playing, but feel like I would probably be better off redepositing somewhere else with a bonus for better odds. With a discount or cash back on the house edge, you could keep playing however long you felt like and it would still be there for you.

I know some "brick and mortar" casinos offer a system with a similar idea already in "non-negotiable chips" - a roundabout system which basically allows players to be paid for every bet they make. It should be way, way easier for online casinos to implement when every bet a player makes is logged electronically.

This wouldn't necessarily have to be in place of bonuses, a casino could offer players a choice if they desired. Personally I actually don't mind bonus systems, though there are times I'd rather just have a discount on the house edge and know that I can play whatever game I want without restrictions or worrying about withdrawing/redepositing to keep playing with a bonus.

So my questions would be: If I requested something like this instead of taking a bonus, is this something many online casinos would be willing or able to offer right now? Do they have the technical capability of doing it without having to do it individually/manually calculate the house take for every game played? (If it were manual, I'd guess they would only do it for very high rollers)

And even if casinos wouldn't do it now, is it something they would offer in the future?

I think this system would make a lot of players happy, but if anyone feels they can agree or disagree with that statement.
 

Harry_BKK

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So, I was wondering if casinos are able or willing to offer an alternative - returning players a fraction (half?) of the expected house edge for what they wager on a given game (whether in $ or in equivalent comp points).

Check out Videoslots, that is exactly what they are doing. 25% of the house edge after deduction overheads, taxes etc. paid once a week on Fridays as cashback.
 

Reelsoffun

When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
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And if your playing regularly you will also get reel race money every week on a Monday too, so deffo check out Videoslots as i would highly recommend them too as they do exactly what you seem to be after.
 

brianmon

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Check out Videoslots, that is exactly what they are doing. 25% of the house edge after deduction overheads, taxes etc. paid once a week on Fridays as cashback.
Isn't the OP in the states? Doubt he'll have much luck joining VS
 

Harry_BKK

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You can request that with me and I'll say: No Bonus Casino.

Kr. Jan

Of course Jan. I should have mentioned that in my answer. Sorry, but sometimes we wear our VS glasses too tight. :oops:

Good game choice you have meanwhile, what a change from the Amatic/MG/Netent only days. Just today, I upgraded the ratings for all your brands to reflect that.
 

L&L-Jan

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Of course Jan. I should have mentioned that in my answer. Sorry, but sometimes we wear our VS glasses too tight. :oops:

Good game choice you have meanwhile, what a change from the Amatic/MG/Netent only days. Just today, I upgraded the ratings for all your brands to reflect that.

You are a true star :)

IGT is coming and Novomatic. From there we take a break in regards to integrations and focus on gamification. Oh, its going to be a great 2019 :)

Kr.
 

zreb

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Location
currently in US
Isn't the OP in the states? Doubt he'll have much luck joining VS

Yeah I am in the U.S. now, but I was also curious if casinos were willing to do this in general, so interesting to know. Was hoping it would be a bit higher than 12.5% (50% of 25% if I'm reading it right?) with a few restrictions (progressives and max per day), but accompanied with the other promotion it sounds like a pretty good choice for people.

I would think casinos could afford to give players a 50% discount on the house edge for slot games, but I can't be completely sure without knowing licencing/processing/other costs. A 50% discount doesn't even mean the casino makes 50% less because players will be able to play longer anyway, both because they don't run out of money as fast and they may be more inclined to play longer knowing the games aren't just raking them over the coals to take as much money as possible.

And of course, the goal of the system is that you get far more players in the first place since not many are offering it and it should appeal to a large niche of people who know that deposit bonuses are not the free money they are advertised to be. Unless I'm overestimating the number of gamblers that actually care whether they have a reasonable chance of winning, which I guess I could be, maybe 99% of people just see a big number next to a deposit bonus, pick a shiny slot machine, and sit down.

My suggestion seems so obvious to me that I'm almost surprised more casinos aren't offering it. Most incentive schemes offered to players have to compromise between making it appealing to players without getting hammered by the savvier ones. This system doesn't have to worry about that, the only way the casino can lose is if the games or RNG have exploitable bugs. How could a casino not hear that and perk their ears up?

And in turn, the players themselves simply get a better deal on the games. Nothing crazy or flashy, just better odds of winning, confidence that the casino gives them a decent chance of winning without trying to pillage every cent in front of them every single time they play. Well, if I ran a casino, I'm pretty sure I would try to set up something like that. It just seems too obvious not to do.

You can request that with me and I'll say: No Bonus Casino.

Kr. Jan

Are you saying you would give players cash back on the house edge? Because 10% cashback on losses is really not quite the same... 10% is kind of pitiful for slot play, but if you try to offer higher amounts (25%+) you have the same issues with deposit bonuses where you have to start attaching a bunch of terms and conditions.

If you run a solid and reliable casino that's great, but the point is to offer players a system that competes with deposit bonuses in value without the excessive restrictions and issues they have, not to simply take away the bonuses.
 

Reelsoffun

When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Joined
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Location
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Yeah I am in the U.S. now, but I was also curious if casinos were willing to do this in general, so interesting to know. Was hoping it would be a bit higher than 12.5% (50% of 25% if I'm reading it right?) with a few restrictions (progressives and max per day), but accompanied with the other promotion it sounds like a pretty good choice for people.

I would think casinos could afford to give players a 50% discount on the house edge for slot games, but I can't be completely sure without knowing licencing/processing/other costs. A 50% discount doesn't even mean the casino makes 50% less because players will be able to play longer anyway, both because they don't run out of money as fast and they may be more inclined to play longer knowing the games aren't just raking them over the coals to take as much money as possible.

And of course, the goal of the system is that you get far more players in the first place since not many are offering it and it should appeal to a large niche of people who know that deposit bonuses are not the free money they are advertised to be. Unless I'm overestimating the number of gamblers that actually care whether they have a reasonable chance of winning, which I guess I could be, maybe 99% of people just see a big number next to a deposit bonus, pick a shiny slot machine, and sit down.

My suggestion seems so obvious to me that I'm almost surprised more casinos aren't offering it. Most incentive schemes offered to players have to compromise between making it appealing to players without getting hammered by the savvier ones. This system doesn't have to worry about that, the only way the casino can lose is if the games or RNG have exploitable bugs. How could a casino not hear that and perk their ears up?

And in turn, the players themselves simply get a better deal on the games. Nothing crazy or flashy, just better odds of winning, confidence that the casino gives them a decent chance of winning without trying to pillage every cent in front of them every single time they play. Well, if I ran a casino, I'm pretty sure I would try to set up something like that. It just seems too obvious not to do.



Are you saying you would give players cash back on the house edge? Because 10% cashback on losses is really not quite the same... 10% is kind of pitiful for slot play, but if you try to offer higher amounts (25%+) you have the same issues with deposit bonuses where you have to start attaching a bunch of terms and conditions.

If you run a solid and reliable casino that's great, but the point is to offer players a system that competes with deposit bonuses in value without the excessive restrictions and issues they have, not to simply take away the bonuses.



12.5% Are you insane? ;) your never going to be getting that when the average slot house edge is less than 4%

I might be wrong but i have understood the weekend booster to be calculated as about 0.5% back on a typical 96% RTP game which dont sound much but it adds up over the week if your playing anyway.

Generally casinos would only ever want to give back 1% max on slot play or often 0.1% back on table games as such anyway so its not as tight as it sounds.


By the sound of it your expecting unrealistic bonuses / loyalty perks, and are focusing more on the total amount you lose rather than the theoretical loss you would get.


As an example if i was to bet one spin of £100 of a slot i have lost £100 if the casino even gave me £10 cashback they would technically be at a loss as although i lost 100 over long term i would / should only have lost £4 therefore you can see the issue if they were to consistently give back bonuses of 10% cashback on losses.

This is the same reason that 100% bonues and the like have so much wagering its to neutralize the +EV created by the bonus.

For me Videoslots have it spot on, it gives you some cashback every week which extends playtime eg FUN ! ( which is what this should be all about, having FUN ), and its a very fair bonus that the more you play the more you get, whether you won or lost that week. For me its the reason I have closed over a dozen casinos since joining them. To me it is one of the best loyalty reward programs I have come across and the countless casinos I have played at, well done VS.


For now no other casinos have cottoned on to how much players like this no nonsense approach to bonuses or loyalty so I would expect VS to go from strength to strength while we hear of others closing down week after week.

Its a shame that you can't play there.

Just my opinions on it all anyway.
 
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zreb

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currently in US
12.5% Are you insane? ;) your never going to be getting that when the average slot house edge is less than 4%

12.5% of the house edge, not 12.5% of the amount wagered. On a 4% house edge game, that would be a .5% return on your money wagered (4%*.125 = .5%), as you said.

Returning half of the house edge would be 2%, but that's assuming no other substantial promotions. The 2% remaining house edge is still a reasonably high house edge considering the overhead should be way less than a live casino, and spins can happen fairly quickly, and as I said before, lower house edge = longer playing sessions anyway, even if not quite double.

But I don't know if there are software licensing costs, bizarre tax rules, or other problems that would make a 50% edge reduction infeasible.

As an example if i was to bet one spin of £100 of a slot i have lost £100 if the casino even gave me £10 cashback they would technically be at a loss as although i lost 100 over long term i would / should only have lost £4 therefore you can see the issue if they were to consistently give back bonuses of 10% cashback on losses.

This is the same reason that 100% bonues and the like have so much wagering its to neutralize the +EV created by the bonus.

Yes you could technically beat a 10% cashback bonus with a single max bet. Which is kind of my point. Anything more generous than this and you get more and more restrictive wagering conditions.

So the option is either the "normal" players get a measly 10% cashback on slot losses to make sure the rare mr. $100 single spin won't make much money off the casino. Or you add a bunch of bonus restrictions to prevent mr. $100 single spin from being able to do that and add wagering requirements, but give a more generous bonus (25%+).

The entire point of what I said is you can avoid that situation, just paying people back a fraction of the expected house take. If mr. $100 spin comes along, he just gets $2 back. Someone who loses with smaller wagers over a long period maybe gets $10-$50 back. (Technically, in some instances it could actually be higher than $100 back.)

I don't think this system will completely replace regular bonuses because there is high demand for those, but it should be a good option.

For now no other casinos have cottoned on to how much players like this no nonsense approach to bonuses or loyalty so I would expect VS to go from strength to strength while we hear of others closing down week after week.

You realize I'm 90% agreeing with you, right? I think it's a pretty good system, but they have very few competitors doing the same thing. I wish it were a bit higher than 12.5%, but they have another wagering race promotion instead.
 
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SlotGrinder

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Trada allow you to use a code CB25 and get cashback of 25% of your deposit amount . Every £70 you wager you get £2 cash . Thats nice and simple
Fro 1st deposit I think you get 100% of your deposit amount
I think the average punter is more enticed by "Free £10 !" or "deposit £50 and play with £100!"
than by gettiing some % of losses back tho
 

zreb

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currently in US
Trada allow you to use a code CB25 and get cashback of 25% of your deposit amount . Every £70 you wager you get £2 cash . Thats nice and simple
Fro 1st deposit I think you get 100% of your deposit amount]

Interesting, that sounds even more generous than what I suggested (~2.85% paid per slot wager), though of course the trade off is that it runs out.

I think the average punter is more enticed by "Free £10 !" or "deposit £50 and play with £100!"
than by gettiing some % of losses back tho

You're right that more people probably prefer the straight up bonus, but if even 5-20% of players really don't want to deal with bonuses, that's a huge potential "niche" of the casino market to serve.

To clarify in case anyone doesn't understand, I'm not talking about cash back on losses, I'm talking about being paid a % back of the expected house take for every bet made.

Look up "non-negotiable chips", that's a more convoluted way of doing what I'm suggesting used in live casinos, I believe primarily in Asian casinos. The chips are just used to track how many bets people made to pay them back on the house edge. With online games, you don't need the convoluted tracking method, you have all the info available easily and can pay back a % of money for every bet made directly (or with comp points that can be instantly converted to dollars if you want people to see how much they "earned.") The % of money paid back I suggest should be based on rtp of course, you're not going to pay back 2% on craps or video poker.

It's hard to believe that if live casinos can do this that online casinos can't afford to repay more than 25% of house edge back.
 
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Playford7

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Trada allow you to use a code CB25 and get cashback of 25% of your deposit amount . Every £70 you wager you get £2 cash . Thats nice and simple
Fro 1st deposit I think you get 100% of your deposit amount
I think the average punter is more enticed by "Free £10 !" or "deposit £50 and play with £100!"
than by gettiing some % of losses back tho
Great casino, it’s only the lack of providers that stops me playing here.
 
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