Casinos and Responsible Gambling

[vinylweatherman]

In this case all they need to do is point to "fine print" to make it legal. Not ethical but legal.
Also, I agree with what You said about them doing everything they can to lure you in or back and then kick you in behind when you win.

Not necessarily, which is why we have the ASA making rulings AGAINST adverts that misrepresent in the HEADLINE, regardless of whether everything is covered in the "fine print".

 

[Nate]

Look at all these "free play" offers with steadily higher amounts of "free money" with which to "win as much as you can" and then "keep your winnings" simply by making a small first deposit. It is only the "small print" that tells you that the casino's definition of the word "all" differs substantially from the DICTIONARY definition - but by then it's too late, player has been snared, and greatest hurdle overcome.

Thanks forgot about this one - Pretty much Viral in the CR group. The Win as much as you can and keep your winnings are often up to a maximum. Players are also only allowed to access their 'Winnings' by making a deposit....

The constant spamming as well with Graphics of Cheques in YOUR name with 'Free $500' for Xxoxo...

Nate

 

[Nifty29]

because on subconscious level Players are expecting what they were promised, rather than accepting gambling as a game of chance,

Sorry, but IMO that is a load of horse diddly.

Anyone who actually thinks that slogan means they are definitely going to win is definitely in need of some therapy.

Common sense has to be applied in these situations. The person knows that 3Dice is a casino, therefore, unless they have never ever heard of or seen a casino and don't know what it's for, they know they will have to risk money to have a chance at winning money.

I would start a poll asking who thinks the slogan means "You will definitely win" but I know the pool will be diluted with 3Dice "victims" who just want to get a little payback and those who just like to take an anti-casino stance for the sake of it. It's a shame really.

I just cannot see how a reasonable person would think they were being promised anything.

@Nate - those examples you just gave are disgraceful but they are not even close to being related to the slogan argument.

The "play for free keep your winnings" is a total lie and a terribly misleading slogan as is "$500 cheque for you!" etc etc.

I agree totally with you on that one.

 

[rainmaker]

[B

I meant to say something about this earlier.

Where does it say a player has to use these rainy day funds?

Again, another example of where as adults we need to take responsibility for our own actions.

I wrote: When it comes to the "rainy day" thing from 3dice. I believe that no casino shall allow gambling on credit. I understand that this may be a final comp if the player don`t do another deposit. But regardless, this practice is senseless. I have said this before in an earlier thread, and it is strange that a casino like 3dice have such a "gambling on credit"-practice

This has nothing to do about players being adults or not. Of course every player are responsible for their own gambling. But as a principle, casinos should not allow gambling on credit. This has become standard course of dealing in the online casino industry.

 

[Da_Gambla]

First off, I'd like to thank the many who PM'd or posted concern for my little one. Outstanding community here, and it's heart-warming, even in the midst of heated exchange. He has not taken any turn for the worse, and we have the fever in check. He'll just need time now.

Nobody said that 3dice is guaranteeing ANYONE a Win with the Slogan. It was pointed out that this Slogan would be illegal in some areas. Does that make it illegal for them to use it? NO...

LOL #1.

Firstly, this wasn't a debate about 'legality', it was a debate about 'misleading', and that came from you directly. You opened this debate...

Secondly, in a direct response to YOUR original opinion that the slogan was misleading, this was said before I ever even posted:

Actually, I think its against the law in my country to advertise slogans which imply you WILL be a winner. Only adverts promoting possibility of win are allowed.

Why is one instance out of ALL the software providers being singled out?

LOL #2.

See your post #26. You opened this debate. You provided this instance. You provided the slogan to be debated. Maybe you can answer your own question? We can't. We are working with what you provided as evidence of 'misleading'.

If you are to be called a WINNER you would have to make PROFIT. Everything else is not true, not logical, not mathematically correct. So, if You`re down at 3Dice, go sue them because thats what they promised You.

I clearly see the problem here, and that is something I have said since the beginning. The term 'winnings' can be used in several ways. There is no right way, there is no wrong way, and that's because people freely move in and out of different meanings. It is the 'is the glass empty or full' scenario.

I put an empty glass on the table and ask you if it's empty or full.
You reply "empty".
I say, "but if I said the glass was 'not full', would you understand me and agree?"
You would reply "yes".
Therefore, the STATE of the glass can be described two ways, both are valid and understood by the average person.
This condition, where we have an object and a state is common in computer programming, and is referred to as 'Object Oriented Programming', or OOP. The various 'states' of an object are represented by variables. In programming, as in real life, we can name those variables anything we want.

If we were to take your concept of 'winnings' into a formula, it would look like this:

WINNINGS equals (WINNINGS minus WAGER)

From a programming standpoint, this would be unacceptable, because ONE variable name cannot represent TWO different values at the same time. If you did it that way, (and it IS possible to do so), it would be confusing for the programmer who comes in behind you to trouble shoot or make changes to the code. So that we're technically CLEAR, as a programmer, the formula would be 100% unambiguous by stating:

NET equals (RETURN minus WAGER)

Now we have all 3 variables represented by 3 unique technically acceptable names, and now there cannot be any confusion. If there's more discussion on this subject, let us agree to use those 3 names to represent the values we are discussing. Also, the term 'outcome', which you often interchange with 'NET', should be reserved for the action it actually represents, ie., the roll of dice, the final deal of any cards, the drop of a roulette ball, etc. Therefore, OUTCOME should never be used to formulate any portion of the wager object. OUTCOME is therefore a CONDITIONAL state, and should be used as such when appropriate. It simply triggers a RETURN to be formulated by using IF/THEN logic, and therefore has no mathematical application for us. It's garbage for purposes of this discussion.

A WAGER cannot become a wager until it is greater than zero, therefore it must be a positive integer (WAGER > 0).
A RETURN cannot be known until the OUTCOME determines it. Once determined, a RETURN can be ZERO or any positive integer (RETURN >= 0).
The NET cannot be known until we have a WAGER object, a RETURN determined, and we subtract the WAGER from the RETURN. The NET can then also be ZERO or any positive integer, but it also has the unique capability of being a NEGATIVE integer (NET = 0 or any positive or negative integer).

(Other programmers please note that I have intentionally left the term 'float' out of these equations so that they don't introduce any confusion for people unfamiliar with advanced mathematical elements.)

Now then, your contention is that the term WINNER is satisfied here:

WINNER is TRUE, IF NET > 0
and conversely
WINNER is FALSE, IF NET <= 0

I will agree, and have agreed with that, because I understand the context with which you are applying to 'WINNER'. You are maintaining that this is the only valid interpretation of WINNER, and that's just not so. There is, and are, different ways to view a 'WINNER', and here's what I mean:

WINNER is TRUE, IF RETURN > 0

That's valid to me for conversational purposes. For programming purposes, the following is actually 100% accurate:

WINNER is TRUE, IF RETURN >= 0

While the concept of winning NOTHING might be mind-blowing, please recall above where RETURN can, in fact, equal ZERO. In conversational English terms, if someone was to state "I won nothing", you would completely understand they won zero. Would you stop them and start an argument by saying "No, you didn't win zero, you lost [the wager]". It's a matter of semantics, and very few people would stop to argue how someone views the state of their RETURN.

That's all argument for a zero RETURN. It gets worse for you if the RETURN is greater than zero. If someone was to state "I won 2 dollars", again, would you stop them and say "No, you wagered 3 dollars, so you won nothing. You actually lost 1 dollar."

That is NOT factual! If this person actually WON NOTHING, then they would have lost 3 dollars, not 1! It is impossible for a RETURN to be greater than zero without winning it. The facts are, 1 dollar WAS LOST, and if because of that you say then "You didn't win anything" is just blatantly false unless you provide the context: "To me, you can only win something if it exceeds your wager for an actual profit, so you didn't win anything." We cannot argue then, because you provided your context; you have boxed us in. Unfortunately, as outlined above, there is real estate outside of the box, and it is very real.

I have proven that there are multiple applications of the term 'WINNINGS'. I recognize yours, you do not recognize the others. That doesn't mean the others don't exist.

If you have to provide your context every single time for debate purposes, you are losing the debate. The world is bigger than that, and does not operate on one person's context (or even necessarily a MAJORITY'S context). Language applications are probably one of the most difficult things to agree upon. That being said, we give quite a bit of leeway for 'interpretation'. That means that the burden FOR YOU to prove that there is ONLY ONE application of 'WINNER' becomes much much harder, if not impossible, and that burden is actually YOURS.

Let's say you were a lawyer making arguments that this slogan was 'misleading'. Even if you have the Judge's attention by trying to box in the term 'winner', you will still need to prove 'intent to mislead', so your climb is still very much uphill. In the end, the Judge will need to retire and consider:

1. Does the term 'winner' only apply to a return that provides a net profit?
2. Does the term 'be', when used in this slogan, infer any type of guarantee?
3. Does the slogan overall have the intent to mislead? Are they trying to trick anyone, promising something they cannot deliver, promising something they have never delivered, or promising to deliver something not normal for this industry?

A Judge can feel either way about 1 and 2, and that's when 3 kicks in. Intent is a major contributor to gray areas.

I submit the following, as regards to #1:

• A return greater than zero cannot exist without WINNING it, and we can freely interchange the term WINNINGS for RETURN.
• The only person who can be the beneficiary of the WINNINGS is the WINNER of it.

In 2 sentences, I believe I have proven ONE VALID definition of a 'WINNER', whilst acknowledging other definitions in fact exist.

As to 'someone provide me a link to this slogan', you'd have to ask Nate. He brought this slogan up in response #26. All of us have simply been under the assumption that it exists. I have never actually seen it.

Cheers,
- Keith

 

[LinkinFart]

Not necessarily, which is why we have the ASA making rulings AGAINST adverts that misrepresent in the HEADLINE, regardless of whether everything is covered in the "fine print".

If ASA can put the end to this nonsense, all I can say is FINALLY!

This stupid trick is being used everywhere not just casinos and if there`s one marketing trick I cant stand this is it. So far it was legal to do it, keeping fingers crossed.

 

[LinkinFart]

Sorry, but IMO that is a load of horse diddly.

Anyone who actually thinks that slogan means they are definitely going to win is definitely in need of some therapy.

Common sense has...

If You take a good look which at statement of mine you qouted You`ll notice the word "subconscious". Reasoning is performed on conscious level. Good marketing strategy is trying achieve success on both conscious and subconscious level. Same advice as the one I gave to Gambla, read about marketing/propaganda and who defined modern methods for it. If You`re not the reading person type watch a documentary, its BBC production and its called "Century of Self" and start from there although that documentary itself will give you enough info about the topic.

I would start a poll asking who thinks the slogan means "You will definitely win" but I know the pool will be diluted with 3Dice "victims" who just want to get a little payback

I agree, but also it wouldnt be relevant because not even all the people working in marketing industry understand how it really works.

 

[3Dice]

The 'Be a player, Be a winner' slogan appeared on one or two 3Dice banners almost 3 years ago. Although imho there's nothing 'wrong' with it .. we did just feel it was way to cheesy for 3Dice and so it quickly got replaced. I suppose there's still a 'lost' copy around somewhere - if someone cares to le me know where, I'll contact that person and have it updated.

The original subject of this thread - responsible gambling - is one close to me, and I think I can even say that no casino operating online today takes that subject to the length we do. Allow me to demonstrate what I mean ..

1. Self control options : Deposit limits, Reversing withdraws, The Safe

Sure. everyone does this. Just not quite the way we do it. At 3Dice, a player can straight from his cashier - without intervention of support - set up his own deposit limits, and restrict or disable his ability to reverse his withdraws. Ofcourse - one direction only. To re-enable, he will have to contact support, sit out a 3 day cool down period, and motivate his decision via email.

Furthermore, when you disable your withdraw reverse ability, you will also not be able to deposit until the withdraw is executed. (this eliminates 'virtual' reversing - a player that knows the withdraw is locked does not get tempted to simply deposit more ..)

A last tool we offer in this category is the 3Dice safe. Playing with a big number in your balance is more temptation than some can take, and we've found that the safe is a tool that makes players more concious about their spending. Some legislations (like e.g. Spain's B&M laws) require a similar concept (the 'banco' meter) also designed to make the player more conscious about playing winnings.

2. pro-active support.

How many people on this forum have at one point or another be told by a 3Dice rep to cashout ? Has anyone ever been contacted by another casino's rep with a message to cashout ? A withdraw is definitly a part of a good casino eperience, and as a player you have to submit those when you are lucky - but that is just the point where a subset of players likes to play more and we've found that a little pat on the back is often enough for players to stop and think about what it is they want.

When a situation really threatens to spiral out of control (and this has only happened a handfull of times in 4+ years ..), we will not hesitate and step in with either enforced deposit limits or even lockout. (Max, is there any other casino where the majority of pabs is from people who want to get back in but we won't let them without deposit limits ?)

3. Social control

Addiction (any type) and social isolation are a siamese twin. The mindset and ideas that go with an addiction are quite often essentially incompatible with those of the general public. It is hard to both maintain a mindset like that and at the same time a lot of social contact. This is why the 3Dice chat imho plays an important role, it both serves as a social network where you can make friends who in turn will be the ones telling you to cashout, or mind your spending. But it also serves as a perfect way to establish an informal and regular contact between reps and players. Less than 10% of the conversations between reps and players at 3Dice are actual support calls. At 3Dice kyc doesn't mean we have a pic of your drivers license on file. Much more than any deposit pattern analysis ever could - this strategy allows our reps to detect problems before they become problems.

4. Education

As with just about anything in life - the more we understand and learn - the less likely we are to be a victim of the common pitfalls. How many other reps have you seen on here trying to explain the gambler's fallacy, trying to explain variance - doing a genuine effort to make people understand ? An educated gambler is a happy gambler. There's no such thing as 'having 30 years of playing experience' - you either understand how it works or you don't. Unless you have 1000 years of experience .. you really have none .. 30 years of even daily spinning and you still have only seen a fraction of the outcomes of your average 5 reel slot. (5 reel slot with 50 syms/reel, hour play a day .. 1189 years to see all combinations. 30 years = 2.5%. 10.000 spins = 0.0032%). This is one of the few areas in life where experience means absolutely nothing. The choices are understanding the maths - or not understanding the game at all.


In conclusion, I think both the educational and the social aspect are key when talking about responsible gambling. Tools as deposit limits and the safe are essential and a great help - but when talking about preventing and helping problematic situations they don't measure up to the benefits of a social safety net and a good understanding of the games.

Cheers,

Enzo

 

[LinkinFart]

I`m glad fever reached a peak. Kids are tough little creatures, dont worry.

And as for debate, I never thought of people with different opinions as my enemies, as long as they dont try to apply physical methods.

LOL #1.
Firstly, this wasn't a debate about 'legality', it was a debate about 'misleading', and that came from you directly. You opened this debate

I`m not sure to whom are You talking, me or Nate but if You check one of my recent posts You`ll see that I said I stated it is illegal. Reason why it is illegal is because its misleading.

I clearly see the problem here, and that is something I have said since the beginning. The term 'winnings'...

There You go again about Winnings, WINNER IS THE TERM we are debating.

And then You start this winnings, net, outcome nonsense like it relevant when its not. You could call those variables any way YOU want. We are discussing the real meaning of a term winner not some fictional variable called winner. But at least You begin talking about winner later on so lets go Your definition of a WINNER variable.

Now then, your contention is that the term WINNER is satisfied here:
WINNER is TRUE, IF NET > 0
and conversely
WINNER is FALSE, IF NET <= 0

OK, now we`re seem to be getting somewhere. You represented the term winner correctly here. WINNER=PROFIT.

Is your statement below actually a poor attempt to mix programming language where You can freelly name a variable to anything with definition of a variable which can also be anything you choose.

I will agree, and have agreed with that, because I understand the context with which you are applying to 'WINNER'. You are maintaining that this is the only valid interpretation of WINNER, and that's just not so. There is, and are, different ways to view a 'WINNER', and here's what I mean:

WINNER is TRUE, IF RETURN > 0 << ONLY POSSIBLE REPRESENTATION OF A WINNER IN REAL WORLD
That's valid to me for conversational purposes. For programming purposes, the following is actually 100% accurate:

WINNER is TRUE, IF RETURN >= 0 THATS SKEWED UNREALISTIC REPRESENATION WHICH CAN ONLY BE TRUE IN SOME VIRTUAL REALITY OR POORLY WRITTEN CODE, in real world person cannot be WINNER and BREAKEVEN at the same time, only if you skew the reality in program by introducing this equation can this be true

EDIT: While programming you can also define variable WINNER in this way too and rest of the program would have to accept it as valid

WINNER is TRUE, IF RETURN <>= 0

While the concept of winning NOTHING might be mind-blowing, please recall above where RETURN can, in fact, equal ZERO. In conversational English terms, if someone was to state "I won nothing", you would completely understand they won zero. Would you stop them and start an argument by saying "No, you didn't win zero, you lost [the wager]". It's a matter of semantics, and very few people would stop to argue how someone views the state of their RETURN.

It`s not matter of anything, actually its not even part of the reality. For the Nth time, You may win 0 but that doesnt make you a winner. Apply this to practically every single post You made in this thread.

Also, when You quote me, at least quote full sentences. Sentence where I said the winning less than wager is losing(along with error made by leftover junk from deleted content):"However someone may spin this numbers dont lie for a second, if you`re getting same amount back its called breaking even, if you get greater amont back its called winning and if you`re getting lesser amount back it cant be called winning again, only losing." This was description of a term WINNER, not an explanation of term WIN. You can spin everything in two ways. You can say that on $1.00 wager "I won $0.00" and You can also say "I lost $1.00". Making both statements true. But those are EXPRESSIONS NOT DEFINITIONS. Definition of a winner is available to you in of the previous posts made by me and recently by Nate. But in case You missed it here it is again.
Winner (

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):
Main Entry: winner
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: someone or something that succeeds

If You are finding a loss of money as success or even breaking even, than I`ll make my own casino and have You along with anyone sharing Your point of view as only customers.

I have proven that there are multiple applications of the term 'WINNINGS'. I recognize yours, you do not recognize the others. That doesn't mean the others don't exist.

I`m glad You proved something, although we never debated that in the first place and we agreed on that from your first post in this thread and we still do.

If you have to provide your context every single time for debate purposes, you are losing the debate.

You are the one providing us with nothing but context of something we dont even debate over. Unless You find providing links and other statements which does not need further explanation as such.

THERE IS ONLY ONE DEFINITION OF A WINNER.

As far as the lawsuit example is concerned. It probably has been ruled already by some judge that this is misleading and that made it illegal. At least some council comprised of experts on this matter, experts in law, commerce and psychology ones, got together and wrote that law. So its not only me.

• A return greater than zero cannot exist without WINNING it, and we can freely interchange the term WINNINGS for RETURN.
• The only person who can be the beneficiary of the WINNINGS is the WINNER of it.

In 2 sentences, I believe I have proven ONE VALID definition of a 'WINNER', whilst acknowledging other definitions in fact exist.

Actually You didnt. Dont You think that You could show me courtesy and read my posts? I think I deserve at least that since we are tangled in a debate. In case You wont give me that courtesy, PLAYER is the beneficiary of the WINNINGS, right?

For example sake, not debate. Longer version of the slogan according to Your definition would be, "..., Be a Winner of losses". Sounds weird doesnt it.

As to 'someone provide me a link to this slogan', you'd have to ask Nate. He brought this slogan up in response #26. All of us have simply been under the assumption that it exists. I have never actually seen it.

Yeah Nate, GIVE US THE LINK.

 

[Da_Gambla]

[.. no need to quote it all ..]

It's funny how these threads take on a life of their own... Two things moved me to originally post, one being the 'misleading advertising' angle as applied to any particular online casino, and the specific slogan Nate cited. My response to that covered a lot of advertising, and I addressed the slogan, and then it turned into this huge microscopic analysis of each individual word in the slogan.

I had a lot of fun with it, really. Just don't let my competitors know that

What kept me focused was the 'silent' idea that we're all (as players) incapable of filtering fact/fiction/fantasy when presented with advertising. That a large slice of players might only have the understanding or attention span of a 5th grader, and we need protection from this evil propaganda.

What I like about the services/protections you listed is, none of it interferes with me if I don't want it to. It might as well be invisible, and frankly, I had no idea some of those things actually existed. As a mop-up to this thread/discussion/debate, you added real education to what casinos can do. I can appreciate the countless hours of meetings and planning it must take to make these things available in an honest and sincere manner, yet try not to disrupt the average player who might never use/need them. What a delicate balancing act that must be, and your team did it, and continues to do these things seemingly effortlessly.

I never addressed all the times these people in this thread tried to draw me into the '3Dice lover' label, or the flat out conspiracy insinuations. I specifically and intentionally ignored it each time. There was another thread about 3Dice which WAS about 3Dice, but this was to me a discussion/debate about advertising. Although the slogan was (I guess at one time) attributed to 3Dice, it was selected by someone else long before I commented.

To address those accusatory posts now in a very indirect way, Enzo, let me say 'hello'. We have never met in any form, never traded a PM, nor are you aware of any transactions I have had with any part of your casino business. You have absolutely NO CLUE whatsoever who I am. I say that in fact, because I know you don't, and you know you don't. I am pro-3Dice for one simple reason. I believe what you and your team have done, and continues to do, is actually making a consistent positive difference. It's sincere. We always have that outside casino group that runs a rep in here, starts 'handling' a bunch of old complaints, gets word out that they're 'making a new start', then it's not long before there's a bunch of 'special bonuses' available. It's cheap, who knows if it's effective, but it never lasts. As I said, your team's efforts are sincere, and you care MORE as the months and years clicks by. That's something to be loudly applauded for, and something I will try and promote here at CM. I'm sorry for every player that has lost a deposit, or even multiple deposits at 3Dice, for whatever reason it happened, but I am one person who is truly appreciative that your team is a force and a model now in this industry. If only a few other casinos catch your disease, all of us as players will be in a better position.

So again, greetings

- Keith

 

[Da_Gambla]

.

At wizardofodds.com, specifically at /askthewizard/fallacy.html, I might direct you to the bottom of the page, where after Michael has tried to explain many times the probability of an outcome in roulette, this:

(Person) I still say you're wrong.

(Michael) I don't really care.

That's kinda where we're at, my flatulence friend.

When you make a wager, you agree that you might lose it all.
If you won any portion as a return, you won that, plain and simple.
If you win anything, you are a winner.
If your net is a profit, then you are an overall winner.
You can be an overall winner in many different ways. Overall on that wager, overall for that machine, overall for that session, overall for the month (I feel I'm repeating myself, because you ignore these things when first posted).

In your version, if I have lost 5k dollars, log out, sleep, and log back in, I could hit a first spin 2k jackpot on $2 and STILL BE A LOSER because I'm still 3k in the hole (Nifty tried to explain that above, you ignored it like you ignore everything).

You can post all the links to definitions you want. A winner is one who wins. It's hilarious that your own posts agree with me:

>Definition: someone or something that succeeds

Where does it say that the success HAS to exceed the investment? It's laughable.. this is the same tactic as suggesting "Be a winner", according to you, equals "You WILL be a winner".

Succeeds is just as vague as WINNER to begin with, mate. Might as well look that up, because it certainly does not have a value associated with it. If you bet $1 and are returned 50 cents, YOU SUCCEEDED IN WINNING SOMETHING BACK.

Please point out where 'something that succeeds' means 'something that exceeds investment'?

Ok, well you make my arguments for me, and yet you continue to argue.

(Fart) I still say you're wrong.

(DG) I don't really care.

- Keith

PS - please do not feel abused if I do not respond in a negative way to your habit of quoting line by line, and responding to that line as if it's the only thing they posted. It's not original, it's rather boring and not worth any effort to actually debate. It's ignored. If you are begging someone to please read my post, learn some etiquette

 

[LinkinFart]

... ...

OK Gambla, If You are going to debate in a way "I dont care" when confronted with facts, thats fine with me. I would advise You not to enter into debate next time when You have this urge to debate because it really shows much about Your character and it doesnt show anything good. We are here with the debate not because of me but because of YOU, and we are not friends. Remember that.

No quotes this time, although You quoted alot and tried to hide it by not using built in quote feature, because I am quoting nonsense You`re putting down and You do what, pretend to have conversation/debate. Go figure do You want to participate and explain or just ignore and run around giving different examples once the old one is proven to be wrong.

When I say "Please" I`m being polite, I could have said the same thing again or in not so polite way point You to my previous post where everything is explained. But who knows maybe its just some european myth to be polite, but every man is creator of his own destiny so if I choose to be polite I am standing behind it not running away when things get hot.

Now to debate.
YOU were the one who put down ONE SLOT PULL theory as basis not me. ALL my explanations are pointing to that example and those that explain term winner can be applied to any of your so called "solid arguments". If You think that meaning of words is changed just because its gambling we are talking about it here, doesnt make it a reality. Or worse, if You think meaning of terms "

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"(Definition: happen) which represent certainty, "

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"(Definition: evolve into, enhance) which represents uncertainty and now You put down even a "

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(Definition: attain good outcome) and tell me that good outcome to player is when he LOSES money. GET REAL.

BE a man and admit You`re wrong, which You should have done long time ago and saved lot of time to both of us.

Reality is that Winner is the person that made a profit. You can try to spin it, twist it and push it but truth is You cant. Should I paint it for You if words are too hard to understand.

I have already told You that when You try to change subject of the debate once the first one You thought would stand fail and ignoring the fact it failed, that it is just a poor attempt to move debate in your favour. Well maybe it worked fine for You in the past but obviously You havent debated with me before. In case You missed it, its also not polite.

So to save You the trouble of repeating once more the same lame argument which includes time periods.

WINNER whether we talk about ONE SLOT PULL, TEN SPINS, SESSION, ONE DAY, A MONTH, A YEAR or LIFETIME is the player THAT SHOWS PROFIT. Not bunch of winnings but PROFIT.
You want to apply term winner to single slot pull just because that person showed profit over a year, well sorry You cant. It doesnt work that way. In real world its not.

 

[Brooklyn]

My eyes hurt. Thanks Enzo for the post . I recently started playing at 3dice exclusively. I find the safe is very cool, and it helps me put away some of my winnings before I max bet to zero. The reps really do care about the players, and they actually do encourage cashouts. Im not looking to take sides in this debate, but it's just my 2.2 cents.

 

[Jasminebed]

It's been a while since I read this thread, and I read through pages and pages of debate about a slogan that's not been in use for more than a couple of years.

Ontario promotes it's lotteries and scratch cards with the slogan "We all win", since a portion of the profits fund non-profit organizations, and a number of highly paid executives, as well as providing income for lottery retailers I guess. A typical scratch card will have "Win Up to $50,000". Not all of them are winners. Win is a imperative in that sentence, but I don't take it to mean I must purchase tickets until I win.

My first decent hit at 3Dice, I was messaged by Anna of support offering to flush a withdrawal for me if I wanted, before I had even decided to cashout!

One of the areas I see a problem with casinos failing to help promote responsible gambling is by leaving large balances in the accounts of players who have wins that exceed their weekly or monthly withdrawal limits.

It's one thing to stand strong in the face of a 24 or 48 hour reversible period. It's another to stay your ground for several weeks or months.

These casinos certainly COULD remove the balances and issue cheques weekly until the win is paid in full. They could accept deposits from the player during this period. They don't want to, they are hoping you lose it all back, not over a period of weeks, but faster than that.

You have to log in to your account every week in order to request a withdrawal even.

To be debating issues like this makes more sense than the nuances of the term "winner".

 

[jod5413]

Oh Thank You, Gawd!! Finally a post that makes sense and is not drowned in way too much testosterone. Thanks, Jasminebed!!

Honestly guys, you all have much truth in your posts and although sometimes you don't agree with each other, it is clear to me and probably others, that you all need to get the last word in! That does not work really well when it comes to "opinions".

When that happens the posts become more and more ridiculous as you all try to be "big dog". Think of it this way. When you go all high brow and filled with "snarkiness" no one wants to stand behind you. Lots of good posts and bad, the bad letting the important issue get buried for the "dander" and itch!

Just one silly and ignorant old broads' opinion!

 

[jetset]

The thread does seem to have become bogged down with an increasingly esoteric (and aggressive) debate on an outdated marketing slogan, so I'll just comment here that Enzo's review of Responsible Gambling facilities omitted to mention one other important tool to which 3dice.com links - the computerised Bet Check self-assessment service at the Responsible Gambling Council.

I feel strongly that casinos have an obligation to provide practical services to ameliorate the dangers of addictive gambling, and this is a useful addition.

 

[Da_Gambla]

[.]

You can say whatever you want about facts, but you haven't provided any fact thus far that proves that the definition of 'winner' MUST include a clear profit. Since you have failed to do that, all you have done is provide more facts for the argument that it doesn't necessarily have to include a profit. At this point, I'd gladly just go out and search for something to give you to win with, but the fact is, it doesn't exist. There are hundreds of words in the English language that have multiple meanings, and a 'winner' is such a word. I'M SORRY. I can't even help you win here...

>tell me that good outcome to player is when he LOSES money.

Ok, well I've tried to, but you're a little slow catching it.. let me type it a little slower so you might catch it this time mate.

A good outcome for a player who lost money is if he wins SOME of it back, and instead of losing it ALL, he only lost SOME of it. That's because HE WON A PORTION BACK. You can't win even a minor prize without.. wait for it.. WINNING IT. It is a GOOD OUTCOME if you only lost 50 cents instead of the whole dollar. It's not the BEST outcome, it's a GOOD outcome.

The people back here have voted verbally for this to end, and I will respect that request (in fact, would have done it 2 days ago). Even though reading posts is a voluntary thing and nobody is forcing them to read it, they apparently do not want you and I to continue to post about this. I understand you got to the debate a little late and wanted your say. You got that. You requested my replies. You got them. You probably have more to say. I cannot accommodate you there. There's nothing more.

Every single response you have put up has been 'answer me this' or 'how do you respond to that', so I have not needed to get any 'last word' in. It's relaxing to me to have a good debate, and I posted above that I had fun with this one. I have never had an internet forum affect me personally, it's just typing. Nothing serious...

g'day

- Keith

 

[unhappy]

All too often we see the term ‘Responsible Gambling’ being used by Casino’s. But have we really taken the time to analyse the exact role they play in promoting ‘True’ responsible gambling? The online industry is actually a different beast compared to Brick and Mortar Casinos. In some jurisdictions, it is against the law to promote gambling on TV or by other means. B&M Casinos are also restricted from enticing players to gamble by offering match bonuses or free credits.

Over the years I have noted a few scenarios which are not in the best interest of responsible gambling. As long as the industry is unregulated (and Casinos are pretty much self regulated in certain areas), these little scenarios will bring them plenty of added profits and actually defeats the true spirit of responsible gambling in its entirety.

I will put forward a few examples and although it seems some scenarios may look like a ‘Benefit to Players’ the actual reason is clear (to me at least). This post takes no bias towards any Software provider and intends no malice to any Casino.

Microgaming

I love the software and I firmly believe that there is no equal to them. However:

Recent developments like Thunderstruck II are actually intended for players to chase achievements. Whilst this may seem harmless, achieving those come at a great cost to the player. In order to unlock features such as free spins, players are enticed to continue playing for rewards, The reward at the end is actually not as great as it is hyped up to be.

Newer games such as Retro Reels and Reel Gems are another beast. They entice players to bet OVER their usual betting patterns in order to reap quick and fast rewards. If you are not a seasoned player and don’t watch your bankroll, you may end up out of pocket and betting above your head faster than you intended.

Tournaments are designed to benefit players with the biggest bankroll. 99 Continues and 50 rebuys hardly supports the philosophy of responsible gambling and entices players in the top half to chase the ultimate award – 1st prize.

Real Time Gaming

A somewhat controversial software in some quarters, specifically with the amount of rogue operations and ‘catchy’ terms and conditions. I must admit, they have a nice variety of games, but often clatter their operations with too much red tape – all in favour of them.

The case that always sticks in my mind is the ‘Student’ fiasco that played out over 100 pages a month or two ago. I cannot fathom how the Casino intended to promote responsible gambling whilst NOT being considerate of the unemployed and pensioners. It was a pitiful excuse in my honest opinion and responsible gambling was used as a scape goat but the intention to safe guard anyone was never really there.

Another gimmick by RTG operators is the inability to flush withdrawals. This is actually enticing the player to come back and reverse the withdrawal. The fact that they will not accept a withdrawal until the time that you are ‘Verified’ is pitiful. All too often, I have seen players complain about the inability to withdraw (because they are not verified) or the withdrawal staying in a ‘pending’ state until such time that it is approved. This in my personal opinion is enticing ‘another run’ and ultimately aimed at players playing out withdrawals before they are processed. Remember, this is in the interest of ALL Gamblers. Many have stronger will power than others… other fall to temptation easily. Do I blame them…? NO… Casinos are aware of this and will use this to their benefit.

A recent introduction by some Casinos of minimum deposits ($45 and more) and minimum withdrawals of $100 plus is typical of the industries stance on responsible gambling.

Another development is that of increasing the minimum bet over 400% on player accounts. This again, is not in the interest of responsible gambling, but in the interest of the Casinos pocket. How are they actually able to determine WHO can afford to play at those stakes??

3Dice

3Dice is a unique software provider with excellent games and service second to none.

A recent introduction of newer games and functions has caught my attention. Ching Ching may be a great game for some; however it is right up the alley of Thunderstruck II. The game entices players to chase the feature by completing a puzzle, and more often than not is not actually worth the time and effort. Whilst just like Thunderstruck II - a BIG hit can occur at any time but players often want to get to the main feature and end up spending more that they actually should.

Another neat feature introduced by 3Dice is the ‘Rainy Day Funds’. When I first played there, I was FULLY supportive of it. I mean which Casino offers an advance to players and asks them to pay it when they withdraw (Or even not at all if you close your account). I found myself using those funds when I had exceeded my Credit Card limits for the day or when I wanted to play and wasn’t able to deposit. Whilst some players regard this as a positive step, I for one am now against it. Being on a higher VIP level means that you receive more rainy day funds. The problem comes in when you never make a withdrawal or are having bad luck and stay away. Loyalty levels decrease and the ‘I owe You’ sticks behind. Players are then actually literally forced into trying to win more in order to cover their Rainy Day Funds and take the balance as a withdrawal. This may not impact you on $10 or $20… but once you have outstanding rainy day funds of $250 upwards, your cash out goal increases and you more than often end up losing trying to cover those funds up.

Live Wins being published in Chat are another great Idea from 3Dice. Well, kinda… The general belief is that people are winning all the time. It entices the people in chat to play when they see these hits coming through. It is not indicative of the reality (that X lost $500 to win $172.50) and is misleading in general.

Vegas Technology

A variety of games, but tends to have the same feel to all of them. Worth a shot I thought….

I first signed up a couple months ago. Made a few deposits and decided to try the software out. Seeing that my first deposit was $500 I checked to see whether I was able to withdraw a ‘Decent Amount’. To my dismay, Moneybookers was listed as having a MAX withdrawal of $500 per week. What got to me was the fact that you could deposit as much as you wanted via Moneybookers but could only withdraw $500. I was not going to accept this, so I contacted live help. The rep actually tried to make me deposit MORE in order to up my withdrawal limits. Nevertheless, I started a thread about this and the limits were revised. How many other individuals were actually coaxed into depositing more to increase their withdrawal limits? Responsible Gambling… my SHOE!!!

Rival

I played this platform for a short while. I enjoyed the games and didn’t have any issues.

I recently saw a few posts about Rival Casinos offering bonuses on reversed withdrawals? Surely, this is not in the spirit of responsible gambling?

Your Experiences

I have highlighted just a few scenarios which come to mind. Whilst there may be conflicting opinions about my post, the scenarios I have highlighted are definitely NOT in the spirit of responsible gambling... Call it a marketing tool or a feature, the ultimate goal is to increase play.

I have not played on every platform and would appreciate if you could share your experience of any scenario you are aware of, or believe to be against the Responsible Gambling Philosophy.

Nate

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

 

[ksech]

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

Now that is a truly, well thought out, deeply informative and constructive post...

 

[Casinomeister]

"Be a Player, Be A Winner" is misleading? I mean, how, exactly? It's a slogan! Dr. Pepper used to have a slogan "Be A Pepper!" What does that mean, exactly? Since I can't actually physically become a pepper, is this misleading? How about the Lotto example slogans listed above, "Are You Next?" Is this misleading? Doesn't matter if you say yes or no, as it's just your opinion at that point, and obviously the government here is fine with it.

Why do casinos need to mention that you can lose?

I had one of those "wish I wrote that" moments here. It kind of reminded me of the movie "Elf" when "Buddy" ran into the cafe in New York congratulating the owners for having the "Best Coffee in the World". They just looked at him (wtf?) thinking he was a nutcase.

It's subjective - and the same can be said for "Be a winner". Winner at what? Casino games? For joining the casino? For being a member of their chatroom? Being a winner can mean many things and I really don't think anyone would take it 100% literal - and IMO is a rather silly argument like the Best Cofffee in the World.

And I'm glad Enzo discontinued the slogan since I agree - it's kind of cheesey.

...My intention was to make more space for constructive discussion and leave repetitive attempts to reason with someone, while at the same time this person is changing discussion "priorities" once the last one they proposed can no longer stand ground, in universe of its own. Posts were getting too long...

If you feel that a thread needs to be split, please use the "report a post" link and bring it to the attention of of one of the moderators. Personally, I thought the thread was evolving fine (sans the focusing on one slogan that is no longer being used).

One point was brought up pages ago - "why are the online casinos held to different standards than their land based brethren?" It's because the online casinos can. They can track what you do, who you are, what games you play, how much you spend, and a slew of other things. Online casinos have a plethora of information at their hands and the power to identify problems much more easier than their brick and mortar counterparts. And of course it's getting more politicized so more "do-gooders" will be getting involved.

But even so, I am an advocate of self discipline. There is nothing more annoying than someone blaming their mistakes on others.

Also, I think Enzo brought up a good point illustrating the boundaries of servicing a player and taking advantage of one. Great thread everyone!

 

[Casinomeister]

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Your permissions to participate in this thread have been revoked.

 

[Deeplay]

Cheers,

Enzo

Gotta say this thread takes some reading But very good observations from Enzo and yes the features 3dice offer to limit spends do work along with barring yourself for a period of time. I know as I have used a few of them in the past.

Its tempting to want to try blame others or more importantly the casino when you have had sustained losses instead of looking inwards to see if what your doing needs a reality check. Im not a suck up to 3dice and have ranted at their CS on more than one occasion when i have had a bad run, but I do think as casinos go its as safe as they can make it - the other part having to come from the player themselves if they feel they are in too deep.

I recal one incident god knows how long ago when I was hammering a slot Payola I think. Was chasing n chasing and not hitting. A message popped up from Enzo asking if I was sure I wanted to play on and if all was ok. I was surprised at this as I had never had this before a casino rep giving me a nudge in case I was in that loss loss zone. All was ok my end as I had a bank roll to cover it, which I explained to Enzo on chat and he said well ok if you fine with it but remember to take a break if it gets too much etc etc. Simply put no other casino I have played at has taken this approach.

This thread is not about 3dice so dont wanna derail but maybe just maybe if other casinos took a similar approach then at least that would give some cover for those maybe getting in over their heads!

 

[LinkinFart]

@CM
"Be a winner" slogan when promoting casino can hardly be associated with anything else but making a profit. They do have chat which probably adds few more options where one can be a winner of something but I dont know what would that be that doesnt include profit in it, unless 3Dice is going to be a host of first "Online Chat Championship" or similar without cash prizes. By far dominant insinuation is that one will make profit and it is so dominant that all other meanings can be easily discarded as valid. As far as splitting threads goes, I`ll remember Your advice next time or just use PM feature to avoid clogging of potentially good threads. I`m also glad they dropped the slogan quickly.

@Da_Gambla
2 days ago You were eager to continue and reminded me that I was not forum moderator. You are the one slow catching the fact that You cant apply "Winner" term partially to a single part of process that determines the winner. Net outcome of any spin, session and so forth will determine a winner. You can be a multiple winner of single slot pulls in one session, but you cant apply just because of that fact, the term winner to entire session if sessions net outcome is not profitable.

Process of determining a winner is not subjective process, its well defined and widely accepted. Also, when You say that good outcome for the player is when he wins some of his wager back is also not true and is also not a subjective view it is widely accepted fact.

Net outcome showing loss is bad outcome and from 0.01% loss to complete 100% loss we can apply anything from bad to worst as description.

Since its gambling we could provisionally say that it is good outcome if player got his wager back although it is not correct either but is less wrong than what You`re proposing.

If net outcome is showing profit from 0.01% to infinite percentage then we can apply anything from good to best as description of the outcome.

Simple logic behind this is that You cant assign positive meaning to negative values and be correct at the same time. It`s not even possible if we are to apply Theory of relativity to it, it just does not compute. Now either accept this fact or do 180 degree turn and forget You ever meet me.

@Jasminebed
"We all win" is perfectly legal along with "... up to...".

I agree completely with You when You talk about casinos leaving large balance instead of flushing them at let You deposit again. Oldest trick in the book evolved into something new in cyberspace.

by jod5413When you go all high brow and filled with "snarkiness" no one wants to stand behind you.

I have god behind me . Just joking, I`m satanist.

 

[Casinomeister]

Gotta say this thread takes some reading But very good observations from Enzo and yes the features 3dice offer to limit spends do work along with barring yourself for a period of time. I know as I have used a few of them in the past.

Its tempting to want to try blame others or more importantly the casino when you have had sustained losses instead of looking inwards to see if what your doing needs a reality check. Im not a suck up to 3dice and have ranted at their CS on more than one occasion when i have had a bad run, but I do think as casinos go its as safe as they can make it - the other part having to come from the player themselves if they feel they are in too deep.

I recal one incident god knows how long ago when I was hammering a slot Payola I think. Was chasing n chasing and not hitting. A message popped up from Enzo asking if I was sure I wanted to play on and if all was ok. I was surprised at this as I had never had this before a casino rep giving me a nudge in case I was in that loss loss zone. All was ok my end as I had a bank roll to cover it, which I explained to Enzo on chat and he said well ok if you fine with it but remember to take a break if it gets too much etc etc. Simply put no other casino I have played at has taken this approach.

This thread is not about 3dice so dont wanna derail but maybe just maybe if other casinos took a similar approach then at least that would give some cover for those maybe getting in over their heads!

I agree - this isn't about Enzo or 3Dice, or 32Red for that matter - but there are a lot of valid arguments and player-friendly advice in this thread. It's one of the reasons I highlighted this thread in last week's Meister Blatt.

/shameless plug

 

[Nate]

Sorry I have not responded in a while... I read some of the posts, but I have been out on the Ocean

Thanks to Enzo and Bryan for joining the discussion.

I joined 3Dice sometime last year in July (I think) and saw the slogan in use on some of the Roulette Games (During Tourney Play) about 2-3 months ago... I don't know if this is still the case.

Nate