Bonus Complaint CasinoJoy refusing to pay due to "bonus abuse" - advice?

Nifty29

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Bollocks - a bonus is a MARKETING TOOL, one dreamed up by online casinos because they couldn't do what B & M casinos do, which is hide the clocks and the exit, and keep plying players with free drinks and comped rooms. If casinos limited this "privilige" to their top players as B & M casinos do with their better perks, there would be no incentive for a player to choose one casino over another.

They are now using bonuses as a trap because they know they can't do away with them altogether, so set up systems that are biased against winners. Terms, particularly ones that void bets, are NOT applied fairly. The casino picks and chooses when to apply such terms, and this tends to be after a player has won. It would be fairly simple to implement whatever complicated rules they want in the software, but they choose not to because it costs money, and it costs far less to pounce after the fact on a player that has misunderstood a term, or not bothered to check closely because they have assumed the word "all" has the same meaning as defined in the dictionary.

These operators also like to hide in jurisdictions that tend to turn a blind eye to how consumers are treated, or who can be bought off. They always specify that players have to take them to court in some foreign place, even though the customer is playing from their own country.

I am sure that this party will soon end, and proper regulation will be enforced through international agreements, and consumers will get the benefit of consumer laws over the Winternet just as they do over B & M transactions.

I am waiting to see what proposals the UK government come up with after they saw the Full Tilt fiasco deprive UK players of their supposedly "ring fenced" funds in a poker room overseen by one of the premier whitelisted jurisdictions. Had Full Tilt not had such a large media campaign in the UK, this would not have been such a big issue.

The "killer blow" would be if BBC Watchdog run a story on this, as it will mean the FIRST story many people hear about online casinos and poker will be one of a UK whitelisted operation "running off" with almost $200 million of players' funds worldwide. It would put many people off from trying the hobby for the first time, and the tight lipped attitude shown to enquiries so far will make them look even worse on such a program.

I agree with diamond.

Marketing tool or not, bonuses are not a right and casinos can set whatever restrictions they wish. Whether they are silly is another argument....if you don't like the terms don't play.

The OP didn't read the terms thoroughly, which is almost the same as not reading them at all. Anyone reading it properly would see it was poorly worded and a reasonable person would have sought clarification....and possibly avoided this whole mess.

I'm not sure what's up with you the past year or so vinyl....you seem totally convinced that every casino is out to trap the unwary and rip off anyone they can. It's not the kind of balanced POV that I used to associate with your clear-headed, albeit short, posts.

I would like to thank CM for giving me the RIGHT to post wherever I see fit. :thumbsup:
 

vinylweatherman

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I agree with diamond.

Marketing tool or not, bonuses are not a right and casinos can set whatever restrictions they wish. Whether they are silly is another argument....if you don't like the terms don't play.

The OP didn't read the terms thoroughly, which is almost the same as not reading them at all. Anyone reading it properly would see it was poorly worded and a reasonable person would have sought clarification....and possibly avoided this whole mess.

I'm not sure what's up with you the past year or so vinyl....you seem totally convinced that every casino is out to trap the unwary and rip off anyone they can. It's not the kind of balanced POV that I used to associate with your clear-headed, albeit short, posts.

I would like to thank CM for giving me the RIGHT to post wherever I see fit. :thumbsup:

Not EVERY casino, but it seems that things that I thought would NEVER happen are now becoming routine. It is all about money. Casinos have lost the honeypot of the US market, and rather than contract, they are dreaming new ways to part players from their money, rather than accept a 5% hold of a much smaller pot. The traps are there because they feel they need to "sex up" the headline promotional offers to look "too good to be true" because they are afraid that a CLEAR representation of how BAD these offers really are would put players off. They would rather put as few players off as possible, so ensure that you need a degree and loads of patience to read and understand the TRUE nature of the offer.

The headline looks great. Get $200 free to play all the slots, the devil is in the detail. Look at the detail, and far from being free money, it is a trap from which you are highly unlikely to escape with your initial deposit, let alone any winnings.

If players were more dilligent, this trickery would not work. Unfortunately they are not, but those who know what is going on have a moral duty to protect those who are walking blindly into a problem. This is best served by ensuring that pressure is put on the casino to simplify the rules and make them more prominent, and to ensure players get the information that this kind of restriction is being rolled out at a number of casinos.

Casinos doing this risk scaring away the slots players as they have with the Blackjack and Video Poker players. A couple of years ago, ALL bonus problems were caused by play on table games and Video Poker, and at the time I said "play slots ONLY with your welcome bonus, and you won't have any problems". This was simple and to the point, now this CANNOT be kept "simple and to the point", and slots players have to deal with inconsistent and illogical exclusions that differ from one casino to another. Once a slots player has been burned once like this, they are going to be wary of playing slots anywhere else with a bonus, and this will reduce the effectiveness of the only marketing tool online casinos seem to be using, and it is the slots players they really want because this is where most of their profits come from.

If casinos were NOT out to "trap players" through clever marketing devices and complex and unclear terms, things would be going the other way, and we would be seeing simpler terms and more in the way of software management to steer players away from breaking the rules. Casinos INTENTIONALLY make the rules vague and unclear in order to pull the "management discresion" excuse. Vague terms give them plenty of leeway, whereas precise terms give them NO room to interpret on a case by case basis.

I have read the terms at Casino Joyless before posting in this thread, and I have seen far more "dodgy" stuff there than the subject matter of this thread.
 

GrandMaster

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The OP didn't read the terms thoroughly, which is almost the same as not reading them at all. Anyone reading it properly would see it was poorly worded and a reasonable person would have sought clarification....and possibly avoided this whole mess.
It is a long standing principle of law that an amibiguous contract is interpreted against the party that drafted it, but in casinoworld, things are different.
 

kernow

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While of course it is true that had I played a slot that did not have 9 lines this confusion and resultant problems and discussion would not be happening, it is in my opinion a moot point when it comes to the situation at hand for me now, and the same goes for whether or not or how carefully the terms were read. Of course it is still interesting to discuss and I don't want to stop interesting discussion!
The important point now as far as I am concerned is whether those terms justify Casino Joy from confiscating my winnings and if so, for what reason, and if not, then how would I pursue them for the losses incurred.
 

DiamondGeezer

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TBH if your PAB has failed there is no clear way forward for you as regards legal process. You should make an official complaint to the LGA in Malta but their record in such cases is extremely poor.

The only other way I can think of is writing to your MP if you do not get a satisfactory response from Malta. Also one hopes the publicity generated here may get the casino to look again at your case and come to some sort of settlement. But if they choose not to then legally your options are extremely limited due to the fact the casino is based in Malta.
 

kernow

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Could you explain a little more please? Why are my options limited because the casino is based in Malta? (I don't have any experience with Maltese law.)
 
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DiamondGeezer

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If you get no recourse from the LGA you will have to take the casino to court in Malta. Malta is an island with a very small population and the main employer is casinos. So most of the legal firms won't want to take your case as they most likely work for the casinos.

If you can get someone to take your case on it is going to involve some quite complex legal argument which will be very expensive. The casino will defend and if you lose you might end up having to pay their legal costs in addition to your own. Are your really going to fly out to Malta and spend thousands on a case that could land you with a huge legal bill?

It still may be worth doing but you are going to have to commit a lot of money to it I think. This is the problem you have.

Also at the end of the day it's not clear how 'fair' the Maltese judicial system is.

Personally if the casino are determined not to pay it will be very difficult to see any of this money.

Going to stick my neck out now and say you have very little chance of getting this money via the LGA or a Maltese court. Your only chance is if people in the industry lobby the casino on your behalf. Good luck anyway.
 

kernow

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One thing I certainly will be doing is contacting John Penrose MP, the government minister responsible for online gambling and is in charge of the upcoming reform of online gambling laws. I am sure he would be interested to hear about the case when looking at casinos that have ready access to the UK market but are not answerable to UK authorities and do not offer consumers the protection they would have from a UK based casino. We all know the level of consumer protection the LGA in Malta really offers...
 

SlotMonster

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kernow, excuse me, maybe I just didn't this thread read carefully, but what amount do they owe you? Just curious. Thank you!
 

Nifty29

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One thing I certainly will be doing is contacting John Penrose MP, the government minister responsible for online gambling and is in charge of the upcoming reform of online gambling laws. I am sure he would be interested to hear about the case when looking at casinos that have ready access to the UK market but are not answerable to UK authorities and do not offer consumers the protection they would have from a UK based casino. We all know the level of consumer protection the LGA in Malta really offers...

Why not.

Your comments will be carefully ignored I am sure.
 

jetset

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One thing I certainly will be doing is contacting John Penrose MP, the government minister responsible for online gambling and is in charge of the upcoming reform of online gambling laws. I am sure he would be interested to hear about the case when looking at casinos that have ready access to the UK market but are not answerable to UK authorities and do not offer consumers the protection they would have from a UK based casino. We all know the level of consumer protection the LGA in Malta really offers...

The UK government is already on top of this with a revised "secondary licensing" and tax scheme currently going through the legislative process and aimed at making offshore operators accessing the UK market more answerable (and of course taxable).

Unfortunately, I have the feeling that despite being a piss-poor regulator from a player perspective, Malta will be grandfathered in as a supposedly reliable licensing and regulatory jurisdiction recognised by the UK government due to its 'white list' advertising status.
 

threescatters

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The UK government is already on top of this with a revised "secondary licensing" and tax scheme currently going through the legislative process and aimed at making offshore operators accessing the UK market more answerable (and of course taxable).

.

Its a joke tho. IBAS/The Gambling comission dont really care about players themselves, only the operators.....so what are other regulators supposed to think?
 

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