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Casino Titan rank bad service and poor returns

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Rusty, Aug 22, 2009.

    Aug 22, 2009
  1. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Manchester UK
    Yes I know many of you like this Casino and that is fine, treat as you find.
    My experience though is that this Casino has amongst the worse returns and Customer service on the net and will not even supply with me with my total wager/return at their Casino despite repeated requests.

    I think I managed 1 feature round in my last 3 or 4 deposits which paid about 40c, yes you read that right.
    My returns have coincidently been this bad since a mystery disconnect when I could not log in for 30 minutes and was told that it was maintenance.
    Prior to that my overall returns were poor but not to the ridiculous extent they have become.

    On August 17th I requested game logs and my total wager/return at Titan Casino.

    On August 18th Casino titan sent me game logs only but in a file format I could not use so I emailed back explaining this and to send in excel format and repeated my request for total wager/return.
    I was also informed that because I was not taking bonus they had put a surprise in my account.
    There was nothing in my account when I logged in and so I explained this and $10 bonus was credited to my account.

    August 19th I received the gamelogs I requested for Aug 17th but still no total wager/return so again I emailed asking that they provide this information. (3rd time this was ignored)

    August 20th I requested game logs for August 19th and still had not received total wager/return.
    I receive my gamelogs but again in the file format I had already stated Twice before I could not use and email asking them to supply in excel format.
    I also state that I STILL have not received my total wager/return (4th time this has been ignored) )and by this time after many deposits giving very poor returns and never having cashed out I decide to ask what the reason for this might be and ask what the RTP of slot Ronin was set at for example.

    August 21st I receive gamelogs again for August 19th but still they are sent in the format I have stated I can not use.
    I receive this email in response to my repeated request for total wager/return

    We received your email and per your request we are sending you a game log.

    However, we cannot provide you with information regarding Wager/Return
    at our casino.

    Attached you will find you game logs and you will be able to calculate
    Wager/Return manually.

    We cannot affect the final outcome of the game, however we do have many
    winners every day.

    As you can imagine by now I am getting pretty angry with not only the pathetic returns my deposits had returned but having to state everything 3 or 4 or 5 times over and then getting an inadequate and irrelevant response.
    I emailed back.

    Dear Casino Titan,

    As I have stated Twice previously I can not use the file format you are sending my game logs in.
    Please send in Excel format XLS as you have on previous occasions.
    I am requesting game play logs for 19th and 20th August.

    Calculating Wager/Return manually is extremely laborious even for a single deposit let alone lifetime play which is what I want.
    Every other Casino I know of (barring one known rogue RTG) is able to supply these statistics so I know the software has this inbuilt function.

    Are you saying you refuse to use this function to comply with my request or can you explain why Casino Titan alone are unable to supply this data?
    This is information that should be freely available to your players so they can decide for themselves if they feel they are getting a fair game.

    Further I did not ask if you did or even could affect the outcome of a game.
    I asked what the RTP (Return to player/theoretical percentage return of game) was set at of slot Ronin on 19th and 20th of August.
    Again this is information that you should be freely available to your players in the interests of fair play.
    If you can not or will not provide this information then I will left only to conclude that the I was not getting a fair game at which point I will consider my options.

    I receive a reply to send my request to the finance department - which I do.

    Dear sir/madame

    I sent the below email to support and told me to get in touch with you.
    Could you please provide my lifetime Wager/Return at Casino Titan (6th time).
    Also tell me what the RTP (Return to player/theoretical percentage return of game) was set at of slot Ronin on 19th and 20th of August.


    Now amongst all that you can see I have made Two requests for gamelogs that I have had to repeat several times and one request for my total wager/return we have had to repeat 6 times.
    This is the reply I received.

    Thank you for your email,

    Reading your email, I decided to further investigate your query,
    It appears that this is the sixth report sent to you in less then 2 months.

    We don't have any issue with providing any specific information regarding personal game play, but our security policy prevents us exposing general data.
    Our numbers speaks for themselves, as people win and get paid fast.

    We take great pride at our support, and they will continue to provide you with answers within our policy.

    So their personal policy is not to give out players wager/return history.
    It took 6 times of asking to find that out and still not get it.
    Their numbers speak for themselves apparently - well I guess they would have to since they will not supply them to the people who actually deposit with them.
    I am nice to some people too - I guess that excuses me if I murder someone else?

    In the absence of such data I would guess my returns on my last 4 or 5 deposits is about 65% on slots at best.
    Probably well below 50% on Ronin over hundreds of spins.
    Over all my deposits I doubt it can be over 80%
    That is my experience and obviously the slots are/were set at very low RTP since the "maintenance" or RTP can be applied to individual accounts.
    Note they did not answer what the RTP of slot Ronin was for the specified dates.
    It is next to impossible to get the returns I have on low variance slots with a RTP set over 93% and if the discrepancy between my returns before and after the "maintenance" are huge.

    Believe what you will but those are the facts and I felt compelled to state them here.
    If ever I was contemplating a chargeback with a Casino this would be the time.
    I won't because resorting to such levels is beneath me but a proper audit of your account should be available and is with most Casinos who apparently do not share Casino Titans policy of rationing out information.
    I am sorry they had to spend time on this - I mean put themselves out for something they get paid for and is their job :oops:

    I can guarantee I spent a hell of lot more time (unpaid) than they did just trying to get information that should be freely available to me and Casino Titan will not provide.
    5 people like this.
  2. Aug 22, 2009
  3. GGW Laurie

    GGW Laurie Dormant account

    Self Employed
    In the Beautiful South !!
    I agree Rusty, if its possable they need to send you what you asked for, on the other hand i find this casino a breath of fresh air considering all the rip roar from some of the others out there with problems paying loyal customers, i have had nothing but great service from these folks:thumbsup: and i do hope that somehow they can provide you with the stats and in the right format you have requested.........laurie
    1 person likes this.
  4. Aug 23, 2009
  5. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Manchester UK
    Thanks Laurie and good luck.
    1 person likes this.
  6. Aug 23, 2009
  7. gloria460

    gloria460 Meister Member

    I had uninstalled them but after all the praise they were getting here I gave them a go again. I got the same results as before..poor pay and bonus rounds. I uninstalled them for the last time again. I'm not wasting my time on anymore casinos that pay me 78 cent on bonus rounds...not ever!!
  8. Aug 23, 2009
  9. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    With Rusty's poor luck at the slots even an RTP of 25c to a dollar is possible.:lolup:

    However, there is no excuse for continuously being unable to supply readily available info. Paying quick to other winners is something they can pride themselves on but that doesnt mean you give this sh*t to other customers having a poor run. I hope PaulTitan can give an explanation on this.
  10. Aug 23, 2009
  11. AudiManinBoro

    AudiManinBoro Ueber Meister MM

    My last 5 deposits went quickly at titan too, but i expect this. Its not reasonable to assume your going to have good gaming every time you make a deposit. Its just not. Only difference with Titan, at least for me is that not every deposit gets sucked away like it des at cherry or rushmore. Ive just made my sixth deposit, and wihin half hour of playing hit 5 bonus symbols on mystic dragon. ive NEVER hit 5 bonus symbols with ANY rtg casino before. And as a result my balance is a very healthy amount and ill be cashing out a very healthy amount. 100 free spins too :eek: which i have to admit paid out no where near as nice as the actual triggering award but im not greedy :D

    Titan to me IS a breath of fresh air and one of the only few rtgs ill play at now.
    3 people like this.
  12. Aug 23, 2009
  13. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Manchester UK
    I agree it is not reasonable to expect or assume a decent game on every deposit but that is not what I am saying.
    I am saying my returns have been poor over abut a dozen deposits and you get to the point where you expect a change of fortune for the better but instead things get much worse.

    It appears to be at this Casino you either hit big or get slaughtered so I would suggest there is something wrong there anyway.
    My educated guess would be that they are alternating the slots between very high and very low RTP to make for winner stories, after all no one talks about decent gameplay with average cashouts and like you say you have never seen 5 bonus symbols on mystic Dragon before just points toward what I am stating is correct.

    Some people are obviously playing slots with a very different RTP than others.
    Anyone who thinks otherwise simply has no comprehension of how these slots work but that is another debate.

    Still I am only mentioning poor returns as background to what has gone on and to show the stark contrast between player experience of these low variance slots.

    What annoys me the most and compelled me to post is the failure of Casino Titan to provide a proper audit of my account and suggest that I should stop bothering them.
    If a Casino will not do that or state the RTP of a slot - especially after you have been subjected to a run of poor gaming then it is pertinent to ask why and complain in my view.

    Congat's to those that have been fortunate to experience the higher RTP and decent customer service but my experience is the complete opposite.
    Good luck all.
    4 people like this.
  14. Aug 24, 2009
  15. AudiManinBoro

    AudiManinBoro Ueber Meister MM

    I have to admit Rusty yeah, whateverit is they have thei sots set to sometimes i like it a lot. Ive played a lot of rtg over the years and never seen such big hits, the likes of which ive hit at titan before. I might have been lucky and caught it at the right times i dont know, but ive had a few massive hits come out on Titan so far, those 5 bonus symbols just being one of them. Ive had 4 rows of stacked wilds on Pay dirt with them as well during a bonus round, which ive never seen happen at another rtg either. I cant explain it, but im not knocking it either lol When titan is playing well, they are without a shadow of a doubt the most generous slots ive ever seen roll. :) When their not, i bust out just the same but ive not yet had a session where ive not ben able to get bonus rounds out even when their not paying. Money does seem to give more satisfaction. It sucks they wont give you your play stats Rusty :( but i think this is a small worry (to me personnaly) but maybe not to you lol
    1 person likes this.
  16. Aug 24, 2009
  17. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    If all these observations are correct then RTG can change the variance as well as the RTP of all slots. I only thought it was true for the latter. Can Dogboy comment on this.
  18. Aug 24, 2009
  19. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Manchester UK
    Absolutely, I would feel the same but it would be in the back of my mind that if slots are set to a very high RTP on some occasions they must be very low on others. I think most RTG change the RTP of their slots fairly often but perhaps not to such extreme values.
    Obviously if I had a similar experience of loose slots that would of coloured my opinion just as my experience of very tight slots has but the real issue is that some times you can be playing slots with little or no chance of winning IMO and even though that seems to be offset somewhat by occasional times when slots are set very loose it can not be right.
    As ChuChu mentions you are really changing the variance as well as the RTP so though you think you are playing the same game it will give a totally different experience.
    Admittedly being one of the chosen ones would make it difficult to make this point but feature rounds and the amount they pay are definitely 100% linked to the RTP of the slot which is why when you are on a low RTP version scatters are rare and when you do eventually trigger features they almost always pay next to nothing and natural wins also decline.
    In my case I think I managed 3 features in 4 deposits which all paid X15 or less yet if I am hitting features more frequently they generally pay better.

    Casino Titan may by Years end have 95% return on slots, I really can't say but whatever the return is it will be very close to the figure they want.

    Take in X payout Y, chance and variance need not apply.

    It's a license to print money.

    Almost inevitably changing the RTP will change the variance because feature rounds make up a set percentage of that RTP.
    (Not RTG specific) As I have said before we just need to use a little common sense and consider as to how some slots can offer X10 wins and large amounts of free spins while still awarding these free spin rounds reasonably frequently.

    This is my understanding of how it works which will be close to reality though the detail and how it is implemented would need a review of the code.

    Free spin rounds are predetermined both in activation and the amount they pay within dynamically defined parameters.
    That is my experience and explains why scatters will go AWOL before eventually appearing more frequently until a feature is triggered.
    Dogboy can explain exactly what a probability table is for though I suspect he will limit this to bonus pick rounds and continue his denial that free spin wins and frequency are within defined parameters despite statistical and observational evidence that strongly suggests otherwise.

    That means that depending on the RTP of the slot you will start with a set probability of triggering a feature.
    I am generalising and simplifying here for the sake of a hypothetical example but it will make things clearer.
    Basically if the slot is set at 97% and the probability of triggering the feature is say 1 in 100 (that does not mean every 100 spins it means each spin will have a 1 in 100 chance of triggering a feature round) and the total return of the freespin round would also be effected by the current RTP.

    A slot set at 87% may have a probability of triggering the feature as 1 in 150 and again because an important portion of the RTP is made up from the feature round the total freespin win will be tied into it.

    Dogboy states that RTP is infrequently changed and can only be changed via request by the Casino to RTG.
    I have explained before why this does not add up so wont bother to do so again here unless challenged.
    I say that the RTP can be changed by the operator pretty much on a whim.
    It also seems likely there will be some dynamic scaling to keep the slot within the specified RTP.

    The bottom line.
    What it comes down to is how the return is made up and what range these returns fall between.
    There is always a random element at play but there are many more controls than players are led to believe.
    How deep these controls go and are implemented is open to debate.

    My opinion is that it is impossible for an RTG Casino to lose money on slots and will go further and say they can make pretty much exactly what they want.
    This is not so different to B&M slots except that it is easy to have the whole software suite hooked up to give the operator a running commentary on how the Casino is fairing and changing the RTP up or down accordingly is just as easy.

    There is no conspiracy theory here just a theorising of how real World systems are being implemented.
    There is no pseudo science involved - all I have described is entirely plausible and practical.

    Either you believe Casinos set their slots to 97% and take their chances with the 3% where the variance is huge as you can have someone playing $100 a spin and another 9c a spin.

    Or you believe Casinos change their slot returns frequently to suit their budget.
    The amount of control and how dynamic these controls are to define the RTP are, as I say, a matter of debate.

    I would have no real problem with this system if Casinos had to state the RTP of each slot and were adequately regulated so we could be fairly sure this figure was correct.
    I do have a problem when I think I could be playing a slot at 70% RTP while another person can be playing the same slot at 99% - that can't be right.

    Ideally software would develop slots with a set RTP and variance and do away with all the controls.
    That though would be a very hard sell to Casinos who currently have things just they way they want them.

    RTG is not rigged but that does not mean you will always get a fair game.
    I define fair by the player having a reasonable chance of winning, RTP no lower than 95% and though I accept slots are set very loose on occasion the logic is they must also be set very tight on occasion.
    It is an extra layer of artificial variance.
    4 people like this.
  20. Aug 24, 2009
  21. rikkerbuddy

    rikkerbuddy Dormant account

    What can I say

    I also have had no luck with Titan - I signed up about a year ago played for a bit but had such a hard time withdrawing - it just was not worth it. I have now limited myself to flash games.
    I can't say much on the pay outs - I didn't win anything - but stopped long before the % went to 97% :thumbsup:

    I always test before I play (deposits & withdraws)
  22. Aug 25, 2009
  23. DogBoy001

    DogBoy001 Senior Member webmeister

    Managing Director
    Great Southern Land

    Variance is not a setting, it's a calculated value.

    It's a fairly complex equation, but in short:

    If all combinations (winning and non-winning) were to hit once and once only during the entire cycle of the game, you'd end up with a return to player that is exactly the expected value, e.g.: 95%
    The total combinations possible is simply the product of the total symbols on each reel strip. e.g.: If a game has 30 symbols on each reel, the total possible combinations is 24.3M

    The expected return, combined with the paying combinations and number of expected hits of those combinations, are used to calculate the game's standard deviation.
    Standard deviation is then used to determine the likelihood that a sample of games played will fall within certain boundaries (using a graph of normal distribution).
    e.g.: Using normal distribution, and knowing all the values involved, it is possible to say that (60%, 75%, 90% and so on) of results will fall within +/- of the expected RTP.

    As larger and larger numbers of games are played, the likelihood is that RTP will approach the expected value, but over small samples the range can be huge.
    And when you're talking about games that have massive numbers of possible combinations (>37M) and high standard deviation, even 5000 spins yields a pretty big range even on 95% confidence (95% of area under the curve, i.e.: 95% of results if given 5000-spin samples)
    And 5% of results are still going to be outside that band, either on the up-side or down-side.

    In summary: Volatility/Volatility is simply a calculated value, not something that is a variable, and volatile games yield results at both ends of the spectrum.

    4 people like this.
  24. Aug 25, 2009
  25. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Manchester UK
    Indeed the higher variance of the game and the smaller the sample the more likely an expected result can be outside the norm.
    No one would argue with that.
    I think it is fair to say though the majority of RTG slots can be considered low variance.

    What Dogboy is referring to is natural variance which is or at least should be a value by which the slot is designed rather than just a product of that design.
    Yes it can be a calculated value but a good slot design will back engineer from the variance and RTP that is required.
    Of course an established provider would no doubt have design templates which amounts to the same thing.

    An exception to this rule would be when the variance and RTP can be altered by various methods which precludes the need for proper design.
    Of course you could have both but it is not necessary.
    In this case you would simply decide on the design of slot you want without worrying too much about the natural variance as this can be controlled by other means along with adjustments to RTP.

    You can see evidence the latter is more likely true not only in RTG slots but all the main software suppliers.
    2 people like this.
  26. Sep 17, 2009
  27. mellowmenjo

    mellowmenjo Newbie member

    I liked the returns at titan.
    But one big BUT.....!
    The start at this casino was not ok.
    I played the free chip and actually won.
    The casino provided T&C's for this promo to the forum where I downloaded it from.
    Also in the cashier in the casino you can click on the coupon button and see the game restrictions.
    As always I read all this very carefully.
    Because if I win. I don't wanna be denied the mony because I played restricted games.
    So I won $200!
    Max. cashout was $100 I believe.
    Forwarded all my documents.
    All aproved!
    Then I got a mail that my winnings where void, because I played restricted games.

    Then I started a fight offcourse.
    The forum owner helped me out.
    The casino claimed that the T&C's wich you can see on the mainsite state that the progresives where excluded.
    But I had 2 links! to T&C's of titan casino and 1 screenshot of the casino cashier that stated that the progresives that I played (jackpot pinatas and one other real series slot progresive) where allowed!

    The casino "fixed"?!? this problem by changing the T&C's and give me another mission impossible $10 free. LOL! Like I can do that a 2nd time!

    After this something positive (about the returns) I tried some deposits with a deposit bonus and won a reasonable amount.

    But because their first impression wasn't ok. Problem not resolved like it should!
    I'm still sceptic about titan!
  28. Dec 26, 2012
  29. 88mightygambler

    88mightygambler Dormant account

    Copenhagen Denmark

    I wouldnt recomend this casino to nobody, NO payouts and if your lucky to hit they wont pay you, thats just my experience with this casino reading and playing on theyr site.
  30. Dec 26, 2012
  31. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    This thread is from 2009. If you have anything to say about a casino it's better to start a new thread then to dig up an old one:)

    The casino in question changed owners after this thread, and most of us knows now that Casino Titan belongs to the Win Palace group and that they are not to recommend.
    They are not rogued here...yet.

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