Casino La Vida (Red Flush)

pmhcfc

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Location
UK
Isn't it typical...I leave the online gambling world alone for a while, come back, and the two casinos I chose to play at cause me problems. I did have a little problem with G's casino but give them their due, they did finally come back with an answer and put some money in my account after the bad customer service I received, fair play to them :) I have no problems with them at all.

I just wish the same could be said for Casino La Vida...Deposited via debit and credit cards - no problem with that their end, they happily took my money with no questions asked. Didn't achieve a single cashout and then the other night I had a $100 left in my account so withdrew it. However, they won't let me have it...some bull about a million and one items of documentation required :eek: Now I have explained to them that I don't have a picture driving licence/up to date passport nor a utility bill (mine are all paperless) but that's not good enough for them - they are holding onto my measly $100 with a vice-like grip...doesn't matter what I say to them.

They are now ignoring my Emails, the telephone number for the UK is a fax number and the live chat is a complete waste of time. I've had cash outs from virtually every casino I've played in the past and not once have I had a problem...Ladbrokes, G's, GoWild, William Hill - to name but four - all happily pay out to the method I deposited with.

Casino La Vida boasted on one Email that they have won awards at Casinomeister, which makes them (they say) an honest and trustworthy casino - what a joke. I deposit thousands, lose, lose, lose then request a tiny withdrawal of $100 (which is the minimum withdrawal at these casinos by the way) and they won't let me have it. I don't care what they say...the belong in the rogue pit in my opinion.

And yes, I did try to contact the rep here but my PM has been ignored as well.

Bad, bad, bad Casino La Vida :mad:
 
Last edited:

denamoutz

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Location
USA
i played there free welcome chip and cashed out the max of 200. I sent in all my docs and received my money, no problem, i give them a thumbs up!!!!!;)
 

Marie2473

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Location
Sweden
Hmm, if the police would stop you on the street for some reason, asking for identification? What would you do? Do you mean that you have no ID what so ever?
I think it is up to you to be able to show proof of who you are, even to an online casino. THEY are in my opinion doing this to make it more safe for us players!!

I know that in some countries there is a law saying that it is your obligation to be able to show identification when and if beeing asked...
 

Seventh777

RIP Roy
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Location
Planet Tharg, dark side, where nothing grows.
Hmm, if the police would stop you on the street for some reason, asking for identification? What would you do? Do you mean that you have no ID what so ever?
I think it is up to you to be able to show proof of who you are, even to an online casino. THEY are in my opinion doing this to make it more safe for us players!!

I know that in some countries there is a law saying that it is your obligation to be able to show identification when and if beeing asked...

Out of the many casino`s i`ve withdrawn from none have ever asked for id documents, at best I think there was one which asked for a copy of a utility bill, I remember when I had my 1st withdrawal at the 32 Red group I rang them up and asked if they needed verification and the reply was..`No need, we`ve already verified you`,.

How does verification of withdrawals make it more safe for players?, when you are requesting a withdrawal to be made to the same card you deposited with, with no verification needed whatsoever.

My withdrawals.....

All four of the 32Redgroup.

Virgin.

Sky Vegas.

Ladbroke`s.

GoWild.

3Dice.

Topscratch.

Zodiac.

Desert Dollar.

Kerching.

Royal Vegas.

Gnuf.

Purple Lounge.

And many more from the same groups etc I mentioned.

If casinos are that concerned about identify theft and verification protocols, it begins with deposits, plain and simple.
 

sparkz

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Location
Earth
Hmm, if the police would stop you on the street for some reason, asking for identification? What would you do? Do you mean that you have no ID what so ever?
I think it is up to you to be able to show proof of who you are, even to an online casino. THEY are in my opinion doing this to make it more safe for us players!!

I know that in some countries there is a law saying that it is your obligation to be able to show identification when and if beeing asked...



This story comes up time and time again here. To put it simply. There isnt any government issued ID in the UK whatsoever. They were going to implement ID cards with finger print scans and whatnot but scrapped the idea as it was far too expensive.

If people stop someone in the UK they dont ask for ID (unless your driving they ask for your licence or ask for name, dob etc to check on the DVLA database). They ask for name, dob, and whatnot and radio in to confirm the details are correct. They may even ask for something like a bank card which shows your name on so they know they were given a correct name. (Take a look at illegal immigrants here. They get away with it because they use the tactic of not carrying any ID cards on them or anything with their name. That means when they are busted they can say they dont understand english and because they have no identification the police can only let them go)

"Proof of age" as in to buy alcohol or cigarettes is usually in the form of a provisional driving licence. Which is useless because not everyone wants to learn to drive. Many years back at school there was a proof of age scheme where everyone under the age of 18 gets a card to keep and use as ID. Funnily enough though when I became the legal age of 18 and tried to use the card at a tescos they told me the scheme had stopped and the ID cards were no longer valid.


The thing many casinos have started to accept (Well the accredited 1's I had this problem with) is a birth certificate copy.

This can either be your original birth certificate or you can find your birth index number on a site like ancestry, then use that code on another site that lets you order certified copys of a birth entry.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
This story comes up time and time again here. To put it simply. There isnt any government issued ID in the UK whatsoever. They were going to implement ID cards with finger print scans and whatnot but scrapped the idea as it was far too expensive.

If people stop someone in the UK they dont ask for ID (unless your driving they ask for your licence or ask for name, dob etc to check on the DVLA database). They ask for name, dob, and whatnot and radio in to confirm the details are correct. They may even ask for something like a bank card which shows your name on so they know they were given a correct name. (Take a look at illegal immigrants here. They get away with it because they use the tactic of not carrying any ID cards on them or anything with their name. That means when they are busted they can say they dont understand english and because they have no identification the police can only let them go)

"Proof of age" as in to buy alcohol or cigarettes is usually in the form of a provisional driving licence. Which is useless because not everyone wants to learn to drive. Many years back at school there was a proof of age scheme where everyone under the age of 18 gets a card to keep and use as ID. Funnily enough though when I became the legal age of 18 and tried to use the card at a tescos they told me the scheme had stopped and the ID cards were no longer valid.


The thing many casinos have started to accept (Well the accredited 1's I had this problem with) is a birth certificate copy.

This can either be your original birth certificate or you can find your birth index number on a site like ancestry, then use that code on another site that lets you order certified copys of a birth entry.

The UK makes use of electronic methods to confirm ID. Citizens do not get issued with "papers" to carry around as in many other countries. If you are arrested by the police, they will take a DNA sample from you, and this is used to check whether you have ever been arrested before for anything, by any police force in the UK.

If you cannot prove your ID to police when stopped, and have committed an offence that requires the issue of a ticket, or a later court summons, they do NOT just let you go, but can arrest you for the purpose of taking you to the police station in order to confirm your ID.

Illegal immigrants are not just let go if they have done anything wrong, they will be taken to the police station to have their ID checked.

The reason illegal immigrants beat the system is that being foreign in itself is NOT reason enough to be arrested, not even to establish your ID, so by carrying no ID and behaving themselves, illegal immigrants can often escape the system, even more so if they take the trouble to learn English.

There is a new proof of age card scheme, and anyone can get a photo "proof of age" card for £20, and the standards for proving your ID are at the same level as used by the DVLA when issuing driving licenses. Anyone with an old paper driving license can apply to upgrade to a photo version, but the government have deemed this unnecessary, and thus charge a full fee for the process. It is only free where other circumstances require your license to be reissued, such as a change of address or entitlements.
The cost of getting a passport is more than $100 - so in this case it isn't worth the bother.

If the deposit was made from a UK debit card, there should be no problem returing the $100 back that way, and the same applies to a VISA credit card deposit.

The ONLY requirement that the casino have to abide by is to ensure the money goes to it's legal owner, and this is achieved simply by returning it to the original deposit method.

If a cheque is sent, then this can be sent to the registered address, and ONLY if the player gave the correct address would they receive it.

Online bills and statements are made available in PDF format, and when printed off are EXACTLY as they would appear if posted. If you print off a copy of the PDF version of your utility bill, it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell it apart from one that would be sent through the post, since postal ones are simply "printed off" by the provider from what is effectively the PDF file that they make available to online customers, stuffed into an envelope, and posted.

Having all the documents in paper form, along with a photo license or passport merely makes the procedure much simpler and quicker, and failure to have all this to hand makes the procedure slower, but it does NOT make it impossible, and in fact companies that have rejected customers on these grounds were "read the riot act" by government, and told to stop using the rules as an excuse to reject customers they just didn't want. The banks were treated to an extra special bollocking for refusing to allow many benefit/pension claimants to have bank accounts because many didn't drive or travel (you are not supposed to be able to afford such luxuries on benefits), and this was holding up government policy to move all benefits and pensions onto direct bank transfer payments, rather than the old passbook/GIRO system which was more expensive to run.

In this case, the OP could complain to Trading Standards, as since online casinos were formally legalised and regulated, they are being monitored for compliance with UK consumer laws. The UK are ALREADY considering tightening up the current system of whitelisting since they feel many operators have misused the freedoms this gave them to market into the UK and escape having to abide by local UK laws, UK players have no means to take a complaint to a UK body in many cases as they have to complain to the whitelist jurisdiction, some of whom have no effective procedures in place to deal with this.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Isn't it typical...I leave the online gambling world alone for a while, come back, and the two casinos I chose to play at cause me problems. I did have a little problem with G's casino but give them their due, they did finally come back with an answer and put some money in my account after the bad customer service I received, fair play to them :) I have no problems with them at all.

I just wish the same could be said for Casino La Vida...Deposited via debit and credit cards - no problem with that their end, they happily took my money with no questions asked. Didn't achieve a single cashout and then the other night I had a $100 left in my account so withdrew it. However, they won't let me have it...some bull about a million and one items of documentation required :eek: Now I have explained to them that I don't have a picture driving licence/up to date passport nor a utility bill (mine are all paperless) but that's not good enough for them - they are holding onto my measly $100 with a vice-like grip...doesn't matter what I say to them.

They are now ignoring my Emails, the telephone number for the UK is a fax number and the live chat is a complete waste of time. I've had cash outs from virtually every casino I've played in the past and not once have I had a problem...Ladbrokes, G's, GoWild, William Hill - to name but four - all happily pay out to the method I deposited with.

Casino La Vida boasted on one Email that they have won awards at Casinomeister, which makes them (they say) an honest and trustworthy casino - what a joke. I deposit thousands, lose, lose, lose then request a tiny withdrawal of $100 (which is the minimum withdrawal at these casinos by the way) and they won't let me have it. I don't care what they say...the belong in the rogue pit in my opinion.

And yes, I did try to contact the rep here but my PM has been ignored as well.

Bad, bad, bad Casino La Vida :mad:

my experience with this casino is that they are strict in handling documentation and it is a PITA. however, i never any unanswered emails and after several email exchanges i got the docs approved and my withdrawals were handled smoothly. who did you pm? it should be wayneredreturns. you will get an answer quicker.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
It would help if they put an accurate phone number up on their site, rather than a FAX number under "phone".

I have used the Red Flush phone number from the UK, and this DOES work, so since La Vida is a sister casino, try the Red Flush number and see if they can help, or at least give the correct La Vida UK phone number.

You could still contact Trading Standards to have them look into the problems caused by the UK having no proper ID card scheme, and see what has happened when others have encountered this problem, and not necessarily with casinos, but with ANY business that needs to confirm your ID. They probably have a leaflet on what to do, and this may even be downloadable.
ANY business that refuses to accept GOVERNMENT sanctioned sets of ID documents is treading on shaky ground, as shown by the bollocking the banks got over refusing accounts to benefit claimants and pensioners after the government announced that direct bank transfer was going to be used for payments to claimants.
 

WayneRedreturns

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Location
South Africa
Hi pmhcfc,

I have replied to your PM.

I have checked your account and cannot fault the casino customer service as they have recorded every email sent to you since you refused to send the requested documents.

There are numerous requests for industry standard verification documents. These are government issued ID (this does not have to be a drivers licence) a utility bill and copies of cards used to deposit. I am sure more 90% of the members have gone through this process and I cannot understand your objection or explanation of why you refuse. Simply scan the documents send them in and the payment will be processed.

As vinylweatherman explained there are no issues with the phones and I cannot find any correspondence that has not been responded to.

P.S threatening the customer service guys with posts at CasinoMeister and chargebacks is not the way to resolve the issue IMHO.

Best regards,
Wayne
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
... threatening the customer service guys with posts at CasinoMeister and chargebacks is not the way to resolve the issue IMHO.

Quite right, in fact it's grounds for having your Casinomeister membership yanked. Note the following sections of the Forum Rules:
...
1.10 - Members who commit player fraud (chargebacks, fake accounts, gnoming, multiple accounts, etc.) will be banned from the forum.
...
1.17 - Exploiting Your Membership Do not threaten casino operations with blackmail. Mentioning that you are a member is fine, but don't try to instill fear in a casino operation by threatening to post bad reviews or roguing them. Leave the roguing to Casinomeister - it's tricky business and not for amateurs.
...

Attach Removed (Old not found)
 

sparkz

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Location
Earth
government issued ID



Not to question your post but as a general question to people.

Shouldnt casinos start rephrasing the term "government issued ID" or at least elaborate on it a bit more.

To me "government issued ID" is an actual card issued by the government. In all reality it could also mean birth certificate or anything like that.

Some casinos have even worded their emails wrong. They have asked for a copy of:

Driving Licence or Passport
Front and back of cards
Utility bill

Now its common sense to know that not everyone drives or have been overseas. Often the casinos that put that in emails are also able and willing to accept a "birth certificate" or other documents so why not put that?

The only time I have had trouble with a casino not accepting my birth certificate was at rogues in the past. But then again they will make any excuse not to pay at the best of times
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Hi pmhcfc,

I have replied to your PM.

I have checked your account and cannot fault the casino customer service as they have recorded every email sent to you since you refused to send the requested documents.

There are numerous requests for industry standard verification documents. These are government issued ID (this does not have to be a drivers licence) a utility bill and copies of cards used to deposit. I am sure more 90% of the members have gone through this process and I cannot understand your objection or explanation of why you refuse. Simply scan the documents send them in and the payment will be processed.

As vinylweatherman explained there are no issues with the phones and I cannot find any correspondence that has not been responded to.

P.S threatening the customer service guys with posts at CasinoMeister and chargebacks is not the way to resolve the issue IMHO.

Best regards,
Wayne

According to the OP

Now I have explained to them that I don't have a picture driving licence/up to date passport nor a utility bill (mine are all paperless) but that's not good enough for them - they are holding onto my measly $100 with a vice-like grip...doesn't matter what I say to them.

This is NOT "refusing to send", it is saying they don't have what is requested. This is "standard practice" for the UK, and there is no universal photo ID that is issued to everybody.

Online utility bills SHOULD be accepted, as again this is government policy to reduce unnecessary paper being generated when it isn't really necessary.

I changed to online energy for a 18% discount, for nothing more than having my bills presented online, rather than twice a year through the post.

Just as with the proposed tax on carrier bags, the industry is being pressured to move in the right direction, or get shoved by the government through the tax system. Many companies are starting to "fine" customers who refuse to move with the times, and insist on a paper bill through the post.

If the UK government doesn't see fit to implement universal photo ID, that's just tough on businesses that want to market their services into the UK, and they will have to find another method of verifying IDs, just as EVERY other UK based company has had to.

There is a government list of acceptable forms of ID, and this has been built BECAUSE there is no universal ID card scheme, and it works with existing documentation that has been around for a long time, and ranks each item according to it's reliabilty.

There is a "A" list and a "B" list, and both contain a large number of alternative documents, many of which ARE issued to everybody, but only in paper form as a record of electronic records held by government departments.

The three main credit reference agencies also operate an ID verification service that should hold records for almost every adult in the UK, even those who have NOT borrowed money before.

The passport agency uses these documents to verify that passports are issued correctly, and so do the DVLA.

Again, the GOVERNMENT in the UK DO NOT ISSUE PHOTO ID to anyone except asylum seekers. There are a small number of organisations and agencies that issue a proof of holding a qualification (such as a driving license), or a permission to travel overseas (passport). No-one has a RIGHT to any kind of photo ID, they must actually hold the QUALIFICATION relevant to the issue of the document. Passports are intended as travel documents ONLY, and the government have stressed that they should NOT be handed over to anyone as a "proof of ID" in the form of a permanent copy. It is OK to SHOW it to someone, but unless specifically authorised by the government, no-one is allowed to take a copy of someones passport and store it. The fact that many organisations DO routinely claim they have the right to demand to take a copy of a passpost is annoying the government, and they are thinking of cracking down on the practice because they believe this is one way all the fake passports used by illegal immigrants are getting into the hands of the criminal gangs.

They have ALREADY acted with driving licenses, and they now only have a black and white photo, instead of the colour one - this is to prevent ID theft from using a copy of the colour photo lifted from a driving license and sending it with an application for another piece of documentation.
The new design of passport will have much of the data held on a microchip, rather than being written in plain text on the page. This is again to prevent theft of the information through making a copy.

The police use DNA and fingerprints to check ID after an arrest, and NOT any documentation the person happens to be carrying.

My BANK does not ask me repeatedly to show them copies of my utility bills, passport, drivers license, etc, yet they have to work to HIGHER standards than other businesses, including casinos.

This argument keeps coming up because operators do NOT take account of differences between different countries, and assume EVERYONE has the same provision of documents from government. Canada is another country that decided not to implement a national ID card.

This kind of thing makes players feel they are getting screwed, so may react accordingly by making various threats, often the wrong ones.

I often wonder if there would be fewer problems with chargebacks if players were not ambushed with such requiremts only when they win, but not when they are losing.

TAKING "dirty" money in the form of deposits is no different in law that paying out any proceeds from said dirty money. To properly fulfil the requirements, the checks should be made when the player first deposits, and NOT after some time when they ask for a withdrawal.

Whatever electronic checks are made during registration are considered good enough for the casinos to TAKE our money, but are not good enough when it comes to giving it back.

The terms are often vague about exactly what will be asked for, and players assume that whatever documents their country supplies them with will be good enough at an online casino if they are good enough to enable to prove themselves in their home country.

Since the UK stuck their neck out and legalised online casinos, their operational methods are being looked at more closely than where the stance is neutral. The UK govermnent are already discussing limiting the right of all casinos in a whitelisted jurisdiction to advertise into the UK, and may require some form of secondary license, so that players can complain to the UK regulators as well as the licensing jurisdiction.

Many members of the government have little idea of how online gambling works from the point of view of the players, and if some ministers knew how things were conducted, they would be in for a shock at all the loopholes being used, and the risks being taken by players because they are told they have no choice if they want to see their money.

The information commissioner would also not be happy about the common practice of casinos selling their player databases to other operators without the prior and express permission of the players involved. This often happens when casinos close, or pull out of a particular country.
 

P.V.

Senior Member
webmeister
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Location
Turn around...
Beware

Isn't it typical...I leave the online gambling world alone for a while, come back, and the two casinos I chose to play at cause me problems. I did have a little problem with G's casino but give them their due, they did finally come back with an answer and put some money in my account after the bad customer service I received, fair play to them :) I have no problems with them at all.

I just wish the same could be said for Casino La Vida...Deposited via debit and credit cards - no problem with that their end, they happily took my money with no questions asked. Didn't achieve a single cashout and then the other night I had a $100 left in my account so withdrew it. However, they won't let me have it...some bull about a million and one items of documentation required :eek: Now I have explained to them that I don't have a picture driving licence/up to date passport nor a utility bill (mine are all paperless) but that's not good enough for them - they are holding onto my measly $100 with a vice-like grip...doesn't matter what I say to them.

They are now ignoring my Emails, the telephone number for the UK is a fax number and the live chat is a complete waste of time. I've had cash outs from virtually every casino I've played in the past and not once have I had a problem...Ladbrokes, G's, GoWild, William Hill - to name but four - all happily pay out to the method I deposited with.

Casino La Vida boasted on one Email that they have won awards at Casinomeister, which makes them (they say) an honest and trustworthy casino - what a joke. I deposit thousands, lose, lose, lose then request a tiny withdrawal of $100 (which is the minimum withdrawal at these casinos by the way) and they won't let me have it. I don't care what they say...the belong in the rogue pit in my opinion.

And yes, I did try to contact the rep here but my PM has been ignored as well.

Bad, bad, bad Casino La Vida :mad:

Hope you didn't use GMail for sending your documents or there might be an additional headache down the road.
USA Today -
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:eek2:
 

pmhcfc

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Location
UK
Hi pmhcfc,

I have replied to your PM.

I have checked your account and cannot fault the casino customer service as they have recorded every email sent to you since you refused to send the requested documents.

There are numerous requests for industry standard verification documents. These are government issued ID (this does not have to be a drivers licence) a utility bill and copies of cards used to deposit. I am sure more 90% of the members have gone through this process and I cannot understand your objection or explanation of why you refuse. Simply scan the documents send them in and the payment will be processed.

As vinylweatherman explained there are no issues with the phones and I cannot find any correspondence that has not been responded to.

P.S threatening the customer service guys with posts at CasinoMeister and chargebacks is not the way to resolve the issue IMHO.

Best regards,
Wayne

Just wrote a long post in reply but I hit the wrong key and it didn't post...I'll do it again later as I have to go to work...But before I do...I want it to be known that you are lying about what I wrote in an Email, I am going to post part of that Email so the guys in charge here can see it too...I am an honest and upstanding family man and I DO NOT take kindly to you slurring my good nature by posting untruths on this board. I will be PMing those in charge here too about this.

You're well out of order Wayne - I only ever post the facts and my opinion on these boards, I suggest you do the same in future....more later.

PS...I provided enough details for them but they still won't give me the $100...they say now they have to telephone me to verify those details sent?!! Makes one roar with laughter. :rolleyes:
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Just wrote a long post in reply but I hit the wrong key and it didn't post...I'll do it again later as I have to go to work...But before I do...I want it to be known that you are lying about what I wrote in an Email, I am going to post part of that Email so the guys in charge here can see it too...I am an honest and upstanding family man and I DO NOT take kindly to you slurring my good nature by posting untruths on this board. I will be PMing those in charge here too about this.

You're well out of order Wayne - I only ever post the facts and my opinion on these boards, I suggest you do the same in future....more later.

PS...I provided enough details for them but they still won't give me the $100...they say now they have to telephone me to verify those details sent?!! Makes one roar with laughter. :rolleyes:

Nothing wrong with that.

This is an additional step used by many businesses, and because you only have "tier B" documentation as listed on the government advice sheet for businesses needing to check the ID of customers, this is an extra step that is to be expected.

They could phone you in the evening after work, or even AT work if you don't let your family know that you gamble online.
The only workable alternative is for the casino to send you something in the post containing a unique identifying mark, and when you receive it, you confirm it with them and quote the identifier. This is how the former Lasseters and Ausvegas casinos did it, the first withdrawal was sent by cheque, and you had to confirm the cheque ID code in order to enable eWallet withdrawals. Cryptologic used to post a PIN to players. The drawback with this method was the long wait while all this went through the post, making it unpopular with players. Verifying a proof of address document along with the ID documents was a much faster process, and has now become the norm.

There are other things that you will have, and although your utility bills are online, you should have received a council tax bill dated April 1st, and this would still qualify as "proof of address less than 3 months old". April and May provide for a selection of annual "official documentation" that will have been posted to you, including your P60 from work. This could also serve as proof of address, and your earnings and NI number can be blanked out for security concerns.
There may be some bills you get online that are no cheaper than if you had them posted, so you could change one back to postal to provide a steady supply of proof of address documentation. Lastly, you could get one of the "proof of age" cards that comply with the current government standards, and are thus accepted everywhere as a proxy for a national ID card.

In short, this problem isn't going to go away. I too remember when casinos hardly ever asked for documents, yet now they ALWAYS ask for documents, and now they are beginning to operate "continuous verification" where you will be asked again and again to send in updated documents as the ones provided pass their validity date (such as the proof of address being older than 3 months).

I am fortunate in that I drive, AND I had to be issued with a medical restricted license around 10 years ago after I had medical retirement from work. This is why I now have one of the new photo driving licenses. Had I NOT been ill, I would be in the same position as yourself, since I would not have routinely had my paper license upgraded to a photo version.

If you play a fair bit, and intend to carry on doing so, it would be worth investing in a passport. The fact that the government don't approve of it being given to online casinos is not OUR problem, it is up to the government to make something of it with the jurisdictions involved, and have the practice banned at an international level.

Once you have gathered all the documentation you have, make up suitable JPEG files and store them securely (flash drive, for example - preferrably encrypted in case you lose it). These will then be ready to use when the next request comes in. Remember to regularly update proof of address every 3 months.

I have all this prepared, so when I receive a documentation request I can send them in immediately.

PS. The defence for an accusation of libel is to prove it is true, thus if La Vida can back up their claims with evidence that the exchange was as described by them, they cannot be guilty of libel.
 

WayneRedreturns

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Location
South Africa
Hi pmhcfc,

I read the emails myself and would never make statements that were not factually sound. I can send the emails to Max if you would like another opinion on what was said.

Best regards,
Wayne
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
According to the OP



This is NOT "refusing to send", it is saying they don't have what is requested. This is "standard practice" for the UK, and there is no universal photo ID that is issued to everybody.

Online utility bills SHOULD be accepted, as again this is government policy to reduce unnecessary paper being generated when it isn't really necessary.

I changed to online energy for a 18% discount, for nothing more than having my bills presented online, rather than twice a year through the post.

Just as with the proposed tax on carrier bags, the industry is being pressured to move in the right direction, or get shoved by the government through the tax system. Many companies are starting to "fine" customers who refuse to move with the times, and insist on a paper bill through the post.

If the UK government doesn't see fit to implement universal photo ID, that's just tough on businesses that want to market their services into the UK, and they will have to find another method of verifying IDs, just as EVERY other UK based company has had to.

There is a government list of acceptable forms of ID, and this has been built BECAUSE there is no universal ID card scheme, and it works with existing documentation that has been around for a long time, and ranks each item according to it's reliabilty.

There is a "A" list and a "B" list, and both contain a large number of alternative documents, many of which ARE issued to everybody, but only in paper form as a record of electronic records held by government departments.

The three main credit reference agencies also operate an ID verification service that should hold records for almost every adult in the UK, even those who have NOT borrowed money before.

The passport agency uses these documents to verify that passports are issued correctly, and so do the DVLA.

Again, the GOVERNMENT in the UK DO NOT ISSUE PHOTO ID to anyone except asylum seekers. There are a small number of organisations and agencies that issue a proof of holding a qualification (such as a driving license), or a permission to travel overseas (passport). No-one has a RIGHT to any kind of photo ID, they must actually hold the QUALIFICATION relevant to the issue of the document. Passports are intended as travel documents ONLY, and the government have stressed that they should NOT be handed over to anyone as a "proof of ID" in the form of a permanent copy. It is OK to SHOW it to someone, but unless specifically authorised by the government, no-one is allowed to take a copy of someones passport and store it. The fact that many organisations DO routinely claim they have the right to demand to take a copy of a passpost is annoying the government, and they are thinking of cracking down on the practice because they believe this is one way all the fake passports used by illegal immigrants are getting into the hands of the criminal gangs.

They have ALREADY acted with driving licenses, and they now only have a black and white photo, instead of the colour one - this is to prevent ID theft from using a copy of the colour photo lifted from a driving license and sending it with an application for another piece of documentation.
The new design of passport will have much of the data held on a microchip, rather than being written in plain text on the page. This is again to prevent theft of the information through making a copy.

The police use DNA and fingerprints to check ID after an arrest, and NOT any documentation the person happens to be carrying.

My BANK does not ask me repeatedly to show them copies of my utility bills, passport, drivers license, etc, yet they have to work to HIGHER standards than other businesses, including casinos.

This argument keeps coming up because operators do NOT take account of differences between different countries, and assume EVERYONE has the same provision of documents from government. Canada is another country that decided not to implement a national ID card.

This kind of thing makes players feel they are getting screwed, so may react accordingly by making various threats, often the wrong ones.

I often wonder if there would be fewer problems with chargebacks if players were not ambushed with such requiremts only when they win, but not when they are losing.

TAKING "dirty" money in the form of deposits is no different in law that paying out any proceeds from said dirty money. To properly fulfil the requirements, the checks should be made when the player first deposits, and NOT after some time when they ask for a withdrawal.

Whatever electronic checks are made during registration are considered good enough for the casinos to TAKE our money, but are not good enough when it comes to giving it back.

The terms are often vague about exactly what will be asked for, and players assume that whatever documents their country supplies them with will be good enough at an online casino if they are good enough to enable to prove themselves in their home country.

Since the UK stuck their neck out and legalised online casinos, their operational methods are being looked at more closely than where the stance is neutral. The UK govermnent are already discussing limiting the right of all casinos in a whitelisted jurisdiction to advertise into the UK, and may require some form of secondary license, so that players can complain to the UK regulators as well as the licensing jurisdiction.

Many members of the government have little idea of how online gambling works from the point of view of the players, and if some ministers knew how things were conducted, they would be in for a shock at all the loopholes being used, and the risks being taken by players because they are told they have no choice if they want to see their money.

The information commissioner would also not be happy about the common practice of casinos selling their player databases to other operators without the prior and express permission of the players involved. This often happens when casinos close, or pull out of a particular country.
......

......and now in 25 words or less....

The UK doesn't issue photo ID as standard, so UK players should be able to provide a wider range of official documentation to prove their identity.
 

WayneRedreturns

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Location
South Africa
Hi Nifty29/vinylweatherman,

I agree with both of you and I have been informed that other forms of identification are accepted for UK players were picture ID is not an option.

The question I have for the UK members is. What proof of identification should be used as standard for UK residents? What form of identification is used by the majority of UK residents to open a bank account.

The one we agree on will be added to the document options for verification.

Best regards,
Wayne
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
......

......and now in 25 words or less....

The UK doesn't issue photo ID as standard, so UK players should be able to provide a wider range of official documentation to prove their identity.

It matters not how many, or how few, words are used - operators JUST DON'T GET IT:mad:

We have been through this again and again, and operators STILL believe the UK government DOES operate national identity cards just because THEIR countries do. They often assume a player who claims they don't have UK photo ID MUST be lying about it in order to hide something.

Other than this, what was and wasn't said in the exchanges is something that needs to be looked into in order to make sense of these accusations and counter accusations, and whether the OP issued threats amounting to blackmail to steamroller the casino into backing down rather than asking for alternative forms of documentation.

There ARE photo cards in the UK, but these are not "government issued", but issued by bodies working on behalf of business sectors, and some local councils. This means there is a considerable number of different designs of photo card available, and it all depends on where you live.

Here in Bracknell we have the "Edge card" issued by the council, and this is considered a pretty advanced scheme, but has only been implemented by a small number of other councils who leased the rights from our council.

The problem with these cards is that they are likely to be rejected because they will be falsely branded as "fake" because they are so localised. This could put the player in an even WORSE position than if they had not sent anything in. Once branded a fraud, the casino will usually consider the verdict final, and not consider any further evidence.

UK players getting caught up in this should now be reporting this to Trading Standards, because even though they lack the powers to do much about it individually, they WILL be able to gather information about the extent of this problem and pass it up to the relevant government ministers, who will want to find a UK wide solution for this.

I am surprised eCogra are not more involved with this, since they are UK based, and must be familiar with this issue, and should add to their eGap rules to deal with countries that differ from the norm of having national ID card schemes, such as advising casinos which alternative documents they should be asking for, and which additional steps they need to take when verifying them.
 

WayneRedreturns

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Location
South Africa
I get it and this why I opened this up for discussion.

What I want to get at is solution and to make the process as smooth as possible. Moving pass picture id etc. What would you suggest as a solution for the UK?

Wayne
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I get it and this why I opened this up for discussion.

What I want to get at is solution and to make the process as smooth as possible. Moving pass picture id etc. What would you suggest as a solution for the UK?

Wayne

The problem is that the solution depends on which local council area you live in. Here in Bracknell, the solution would be to get the edge card. It is used to identify those entitled to special discounts, subsidised council services, use of libraries etc. It has a photo of the holder too!
It is also FREE for anyone living here because it is used to access council services, and substitutes for a library card, etc. It can also be used as a proof of age card.

I know that 6 other councils bought the rights to use the scheme, but it may have a different name.

The main problem is that a photo of the holder is not usually added to such types of document. There was a trial of credit cards with the photo of the holder as a means to make sure it was being used by it's rightful owner, but it was scrapped because although more secure, the banks decided it was too expensive to implement as a solution. It turned out to be cheaper for the banks to foot the bill for card fraud than to roll out a national photo credit card scheme. Chip & Pin was later developed to overcome these concerns, but AGAIN the level of security was sacrificed to the aim of spending the least money possible on the scheme, which is why chip & pin is regularly being beaten by the cleverest criminals, and forever getting "patched".

The bottom line is COST - it is simply so much more expensive to issue photo documents than paper ones, so this is currently reserved for documents that really matter, such as passports, drivers license, and work passes for places involved in sensitive work (nuclear, defence, etc).

The only thing that is issued to EVERY adult in the UK is their own unique national insurance number, which stays with them for life. A "national insurance card" is no longer issued though, as the records have long since gone "paperless", and verification and taxation is done electronically.
The other document that gets issued to every adult is the P60 - a tax deduction form that MUST be provided to taxpayers by any entity that pays them money, such as their place of work, the benefits office, and any financial company that pays interest, dividends, etc.

Much of this too is going paperless, with much of this documentation being issued "online only" rather than being posted. An online version of, say, a utilty bill is sufficient for it's intended purpose, which is to bill a consumer for what they have used. It is not the responsibilty of the utility company to make it's systems work for the purpose of ID checking, they are after all, private companies out to make a profit, just like an online casino.

I don't see online casinos sending players a quarterly statement of their deposits and withdrawals by post - this is all available to the player through the MGS lobby, and by email from CS. This is sufficient for the purpose of giving the player a record of their transactions.

Since casinos often send promotions to their players through the post, I see no reason why they can't do address verification themselves, by posting a unique code to a new player that has to be confirmed before they can withdraw. This would be just as good as a utilty bill for this purpose, and would probably be even better because the casino is in full control of this document, not a utility company, and could design it so that players could not pretend they have received it when they hadn't - which can easily be done for a utilty bill because of how they are now mass produced in "print runs" with an industrial version of a home printer, and from a template that is easy to reproduce.

Any solution would most likely involve more than 2/3 documents, and the best approach would be to base it on what the DVLA require in the way of supporting documentation before they issue a photo driving license.

I am not sure where, but there is a government sanctioned list of "tier 1" and "tier 2" documentation that advises on which combinations are acceptable to meet the requirements of the legislation to "know who your customer is".

A more effective solution would be for the casino industry to run it's own ID scheme, where they would all contribute to a central organisation that would verify all the different types of documentation, and issue players with their own unique "players card" in a similar way to how other businesses have dealt with this problem.

Companies that offer season passes, such as annual bus and train tickets, issue a photo ticket to ensure that only the holder can use it, rather than hand it around to a group of friends.

Passes for major theme parks work like this. They offer unlimited access for a whole year, but no holder would actually want to go to the theme park every day, so they factor this into the price. Because of this, they add a photo to ensure that a group of people can't all use the same pass on different days, or even the same day by passing it through the boundary fence for their friends to get in with.

Any such scheme has to be open to ALL players, unlike the proxies used for ID in the UK, such as the driving license ONLY being available to someone who has passed their test. The DVLA do NOT operate an "ID only" version with no actual driving permissions, which is a shame because this WOULD be a neat solution to the problem. This is something big business needs to take up with government, and if funded by business, government would be likely to push forward with such a scheme. Other schemes have gone ahead with government backing because businesses wanted them, and agreed to carry the costs. Other schemes have gone ahead because the government decided business needed them, and forced businesses to carry the cost, but have less say in how it worked.

With online gambling becoming more popular, and the extension of UKash acceptance which is designed for the "financially marginalised" members of society that don't have bank accounts, the problem of no photo ID (or proxy) will grow.

Another problem that offshore operators face is that the Data Protection laws can work against the verification process, for example, it is not possible for a private company to submit a national insurance number and be told the details of who it belongs to. Such information is ONLY made available to companies that have been specifially authorised to receive this level of cooperation. The three credit reference agencies that operate within the UK have this kind of authorisation to cross check with government databases, so companies wanting to verify a customers' details would usually submit a ID verification search with one of these agencies with the data they have for the customer. The agency will then check the records, and issue a pass or fail to match on the two sets of details. Most adults leave a trail with these agencies, and the more financially active they are, the better the trail. It is even possible to make a fraud check on a set of details, as anyone who thinks their details have been misused can have a CIFAS marker placed on their credit file, which will alert any company running a check that the details have been compromised, and thus extra checks would be wise.

Notarisation is also a useful step for non-photo documents, and for this to work, the casino should check with the notary named on the stamp to confirm it is genuine. Casinos need to be aware that notaries work office hours, and have other business to attend to, and will not necessarily come to the phone right away to answer such a question. Having documents "notarised by the police, bank, dentist, etc" is NOT proper notarisation, but more of a case of "witnessing" the document as presented to them by the holder. The main difference is that these "witnesses" do NOT have to be contactable to verify their "notarisation", and may not keep accurate records of the act as would be the case with a proper public notary of solicitor.

A proper "notarised copy" would come with a seal clearly identifying the notary, along with details on how to contact them (a postal address at least).

Players don't like notarised documents because it takes time and money to prepare, often comes along as an "ambush demand" from the casino, and when asked about it, operators claim it is "very rare" for them to ask for a notarised document - which to the player receiving such a request is to them, "a load of bollocks", and probably a "stalling tactic". Once a player thinks they are getting screwed, their attitude changes towards the casino, and they feel they are now in a fight to prevent themselves from getting screwed. This then leads to the often rash decision of dropping the "C bomb" on the casino (by which I mean CHARGEBACK, not C***, although some CS staff may beg to differ on this). Most "C bombs" are never detonated, because the player soon realises it was a bad move, and only serves to gridlock the process altogether, because the casino KNOWS that the odds are heavily stacked against them on this, and cannot be certain they have defused the "C bomb" until around 6 months after the deposit was made. The result for the player is a 6 month delay because they have got the casino worried.
For casinos facing this, a refund of the deposit back to the credit card or VISA debit card it came from will prevent a chargeback from going through, which is why the deposit is often refunded quite early in cases of disputed winnings down to bonus term violations, even though the outcome of any dispute is not known.

The OP should not have deployed the "C bomb" as alleged, as he was disputing a mere $100, but the deposits amount to far more, and it is these deposits that would be at risk of being charged back.

There are many players who MISUSE the consumer credit act by FRAUDULENTLY charging back losses, and even deposits from which they won, but where they were paid out by an alternate method. Casinos should be refunding back to VISA cards from the UK, as this is allowed by the banks, and by not supporting this with their choice of processor are making themselves vulnerable to such fraud schemes. It is then the INNOCENT player that suffers because their credit card deposits cannot be told apart from those of an undetected fraudster, and hence they suffer the inconvenience of the additional measures casinos put in place because they don't use a processor that supports refunds to VISA cards.

My own experience is that Red Flush do NOT support automatic refunds up to the amounts deposited to a VISA card, but pay EVERYTHING to the method of withdrawal. Fine if the player is innocent, but an opportunity for fraudsters.

Casino Rewards DO refund the original deposits back to VISA cards, and they INSIST, whatever method of withdrawal has been selected by the player, and however VIP they are.

Much of this is down to the fact that "remote gambling" was specifically made legal in the recent update to our gambling laws, and there is no need for operators to disguise what the transactions are for, as has been the case in many other countries, notably the US.
It is up to individual banks to set their own policies on gambling transactions, and most card issuers have now introduced a specific section in the terms on how they treat gambling transactions.
 

pmhcfc

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Location
UK
After a busy day at work I am not sat comfortable in front of my computer and able to respond properly to this thread.
I have to say that it's been rather an irksome day at work, not because of the Casino's host doing his best to initiate a smear
campaign but because I'm a little annoyed at Maxd for taking the hosts comments at face value without even
consulting me first.

There is no point in me engaging in a 'tit for 'tat' row with the Casino La Vida rep, I believe he's making the casino look
bad anyway, what with his unprofessional approach and rather childish behaviour. If all he wants to do is try to dis-credit
someone as opposed to trying to help then I'll let him get on with it.

Although I don't post here that much I have been an avid reader and even though I may have had the odd moan I've always
been honest with my posts. Besides, these forums do help us to vent if we need to...I digress. I have never abused my position
as a member here, I have (and do) work within a customer services environment and I know loose and idle 'threats' by customers
will never be taken seriously, nor do they affect the outcome of any complaint..in fact they are less likely to get what they
are asking for. In respect of the Email I sent, I was replying to their claim of the awards the have won here (which are??) and I
said....I am a member of Casinomeister myself and will be visiting the website later for a 'chat'. Not entirely sure what is
wrong with saying that...a simple, straightforward, honest statement.

I've had to look up what a charge-back actually is as I didn't know. I've been playing online for over ten years and, like others,
have lost plenty of times. Not once have I considered trying to reclaim my lost funds via an illegal action...I am a respected,
honest, middle-aged family man and I would never ever put my family in jeopardy via that sort of action- the notion of even
considering doing something like that is ludicrous.

Yes, I did inform my bank that the transactions could be fraudulent but I didn't tell them I didn't make the deposits, but that I
believed the casino was acting in a fraudulent manner...i.e taking my money but not paying me when I tried to withdraw. I did, at
the time, believe this could be the case. Once again, I was just being honest with the casino...does the rep here actually
believe that if I was going to do one (or more) of these charge-back things that I'd tell the casino I had done it? Er..hello!!

This whole scenario has become ridiculous...The casino now seems to have some sort of silly vendetta (possibly initiated by
the rep here) and is out to delay things as much as they possibly can. They Emailed me this morning telling me that now
they have received my documents they have to phone me to verify (didn't happen) but on returning home they have Emailed
me again saying they want the front and reverse of another card I've used at the casino. Considered they've already a picture
of one I've used and this is the same one I have withdrawn to, I have no idea what they are playing at...I'm beginning not to care.

I believe the rep thinks he's being clever by engaging in conversation with a highly respected member here (Vinyl) about the
pros and cons of the UK document discussion. Whilst Vinyl makes continued and valid points, I think the rep is doing nothing more
than trying to carry favour for himself. After all, it's hardly rocket science...I still have a paper driving licence- never changed it,
us UK residents don't have to have a driving licence. We don't have to have a passport either, nor ID but all this is well-known
already. All my bills are paper free (quite common one suspects) but that's hardly a state secret. We can happily live our lives
without any ID if we chose to, nor do we need a phone or utility bills in our name etc. How about we note the date of this message
and see what changes Red Flush/Casino La Vida have made re accepting different ID from the UK. My guess is that nothing
will have changed, nor do they have any plans to do so. They don't even have a UK number phone # that works - unless that's
changed in the last day or two.

Who knows if I'll ever get my withdrawal, I have still have other funds in my account too, wonder what my chances are of
winning with those said funds lol. What I think the rep needs to do is take a bit of a back seat and stop taking things so
personally. As I (and others) have said, I've never had a problem withdrawing at any casino but Casino La Vida and it's so
idiotic that they are making such an enormous fuss over it all. I just cannot fathom why one needs to go through so much
red-tape just for a withdrawal- is there a law which says we have to produce documentation? I've deposited via the card,
why not just do what every other casino has done and paid it back to the same card if a withdrawal is requested? They tell
me every ECOGRA member operates in the same way as they do...didn't realise Ladborkes (for eg) wasn't an ECOGRA
member...if what the Casino La VIda says is true, that means all the other casinos I've ever played at (and withdrawn from)
are not members of said organisation....live and learn I suppose.

Still...the whole point about this post was to highlight the fact that casino La Vida seems to make it bloody awkward to
withdraw from and they have a minimum withdrawal amount of $100 - how many other casinos have that rule? If the rep
continues to try his best to make me look bad then cest la vie - I'm hardly likely to descend into deep, dark depression because
of it...However, one final quote does come to mind with his behaviour...

The man doth protest too much.
 
Last edited:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I have submitted an application for my council's e+ card (the new name for the edge card).

It seems ANYONE can get it, even you. The downside is that part of the process involves travelling to Bracknell and completing the application in person at council offices. This is more or less what "notarising your documents" involves. Who can get it - "anyone who lives, works, or shops in the borough" - the "shops" bit is why ANYONE can get one, since ANYONE can turn up in person here for a spot of shopping, or even a bit of "sightseeing".
No way would the council claim "What! holiday!, in this sh*thole!" (especially near an election, or in earshot of a journalist). They would have to accept that you wanted to visit such a great town:rolleyes: - even if you lived in Glasgow:p

You can use a council tax bill as your proof of address - every property gets one, and it is always posted, even if paid online or by D/D.

I have structured my application with the intention of getting a card that would pass as photo ID for online casinos in the absence of a UK national identity card.

Bracknell is not the only council running this e+ smartcard scheme, so there may well be one closer.

To get one, all you need are one each of a document from 4 different lists, and there are several DOZEN documents deemed acceptable, most of which would not have a photo.

The aim is to get a local government issued photo ID card which could also act as a proxy to a "government issued national ID card" as far as casinos are concerned.

I will then ask some casinos that I have a good relationship with to look at my card, and compare it with my accounts, and judge whether it meets the requirements for "government issued ID".

Most of the data is held on a chip, but a photo is present to ensure the right person is using the extra benefits the card entitles them to.
For online casino purposes, the aim would be to find a common field printed on the card that can be checked against another documentary proof that the player would have to send in.

For this particular case - just take the phonecall. Tell Wayne when you will be in (evening?), and get him to arrange the call during this time window. It will need to be a landline, not a mobile, especially not a "pay as you go" one. The call will be made on the number you gave when registering the account.

UK time is currently GMT+1 (summer time), and this should be within a couple of hours of La Vida time, as I believe their support centre is in South Africa.

For the future, look to get some better documentation to stand in for what you lack. Wayne has already said that Red Flush/La Vida accept this is a problem for UK players, and would like to find a workable solution.

I will later look at online billing, and whether this can work with casino verification procedures. I currently have an "online only" deal with E.ON for dual fuel, which saves me 18% on the rates for those wanting a paper bill sent every 6 months. I STILL get the odd letter through the post from them, as there are some notices (price changes etc) that they MUST send to customers by post because of regulatory rules.

One problem NOT properly addressed is other members of a household, since only ONE person will have a particular bill in their name, and they are responsible for paying on behalf of the entire household. This is an issue for spouses and adult children still living with their parents. Whilst casinos generally accept only ONE account per household, it is not always the major earner/bill payer that takes up the hobby. More often, it is the "stay at home" spouse/partner that decides to try online casinos, poker, or bingo. This is why more women than men gamble online, the opposite to what you generally find in land casinos.

PS - I was going to get one anyway, just never got around to it. I can get discounts at a number of businesses with the card, and this could prove useful.
 
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