Casino City and Ecogra

[spearmaster]

Enough patting ones' self on the back.

Caruso has admitted being abrasive - that he is, as I often am. And these abrasive methods do sometimes work, no doubt about that.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way - there are times where being abrasive is detrimental, especially in new "relationships". Yes, I've fallen foul of this myself - I am known to the operators as a straight shooter and often abrasive - but this is something which usually happens after a relationship has been established and they are quite aware that I will continue to expose what I think are unfair practices.

In this case, however, we have no existing relationship - I doubt that Caruso has any inkling what Mike of Casino City has done in the industry - and though Caruso's intentions were good, in my mind they were probably a bit inappropriate and the issue could have been handled a lot better.

I do happen to know Mike - and I know he's not a bullshitter. Casino City has been around for a long time and they have the most comprehensive information on the gambling industry as far as directories go.

However, up until this point Casino City did not distinguish between operations - a casino was a casino, so to speak. Whereas Casinomeister and Got2Bet often make distinctions, Casino City did not because they were a directory - pure and simple.

Now Casino City does intend to make a different kind of impression and it is actively seeking to categorize online operations - can't be faulted for that, can it? In time they will get it right - make no mistake about it. Mike will not rest until he is satisfied with the result.

Can Caruso lay claim to getting the Crystal Palace "aff links" removed? Perhaps. But I bet that a simple word from myself or Casinomeister or Jetset would have achieved the same result. In other words, the abrasiveness was unnecessary.

Caruso is looking out for the players, really can't argue with that.

Jetset, on the other hand, is certainly not a hypocrite. He too is interested in making the industry better for players as well as operators - he has often assisted other players without any recompense as well - and he is actually a hell of a lot better at getting things done behind the scenes than I ever will be, though sometimes people mistakenly think that I wield a magic wand and when I wave it behind closed doors things happen. Jetset wields a bigger wand than I do... LOL...

If the two of you would set aside the bickering and perhaps have a civil discussion (hint hint - Vegas) - I bet the two of you would come away with a much better understanding of each other and together/individually make even more useful contributions to the industry.

In this case, however, I am definitely standing behind Mike and Jetset.

 

[jetset]

Good Lord, Caruso - do you actually read this fallacious poison you keep posting or does it flow straight from your PC onto these pages? True to form, you have resorted to crude name-calling with scant regard for the facts and little if any substantiation.

This astonishing stream of insult and abuse is hardly worth answering, but let's look at your apparent assumption that everyone in this industry who is operating a business (or maybe even playing - after all you get reward for that occasionally too don't you?) is concerned only with the almighty dollar to the exclusion of player help and honesty.

Get real, man - there really is room for business and ethics together, and there are many, many people in this industry who do a damn sight more every week than you're ever likely to in order to really sort out the evils that do not permeate but certainly attend all sectors this industry.

Some of them right here (and I include myself) have foregone commercial reward from established crooks.

If this industry is as unredeemably and totally dirty as you repeatedly assert then whatever in the world are you doing participating in it? Because contrary to your own self-belief, you are not doing much to rectify it by your conduct here for starters.

You have somehow convinced yourself that your anonymous rants on what boards will still have you is the way to resolve the problems which beset the industry, when it is addressing but a small part of it. In fact, you yourself have become so consumed by your own importance that you are probably worsening some of the problems, particularly regarding the attitude of people you have prematurely fulminated against like CC.

Think about it - do you really believe that these extraordinary and anonymous performances of yours, which are not backed up or combined and followed through with any other activity are the sole cause of the truimph of good over evil here? It would seem so from your smug self-congratulation.

Do you ever bother to read the posts of others before strutting around trying to issue diktaats? Perhaps if you did you might have noticed that CC was already in contact with people like the 'Meister in sorting out his rogues. Much as you would like to have everyone believe it was your singlehanded efforts that achieved this momentous breakthrough it simply isn't so.

Take a look at your post above, which is staggering in its arrogance quite apart from its insulting content. I've heard of folks like you who take a pride in their lack of discipline and crude behaviour, excusing it as "calling a spade a spade" and it is fortunate that it is a comparatively rare occurrence.

QUOTE YOU would have continued billing and cooing at your free lunch-ticket without batting an eyelid at the crap he was promoting.UNQUOTE

What free lunch ticket would that be, pray? Are you now accusing me of selling my soul to this CC poster? I would like to see the proof if this is so because it is certainly news to me. And common courtesy in recognising an honest effort to resolve problems does not constitute "billing and cooing" in any term of reference.

You also seem to be mesmerised by the names Crystal Palace, Warren Cloud, Netgaming and Casino Bar, all of which (and a lot of other rogues too) have appeared negatively in our bulletins (you do read our bulletins, I take it?) and will continue to do so as cases come to light. Your trashing and crashing about was enough for the whole message board in this instance, and it was quite unnecessary.

QUOTE My methods are abrasive and articlate UNQUOTE

No, in this case they are precipitate, ill-founded, undisciplined, largely inaccurate and inexcusably insulting and abusive. The proof is right here on this thread. To take pride in this sort of public behaviour is beyond understanding for me.

Your continued opposition and ill-will to the legal action against the DoJ still mystifies me - why do you think it would be a good thing if CC loses the case and the DoJ has the imprimatur to interfere with a basic Constitutional right to freedom of speech and advertising.

Do you think this would be good for the gambling interest of thousands of players to have their right to information and choice truncated? Have you convinced yourself that the industry is so rotten that it is best hamstrung by this sort of questionable governmental interference? What do you think the implications of a DoJ victory might be for other areas of society should the politicians decide to attack them, too?

Fortunately, and contrary to your own seemingly ill-thought out opinion, the press is reporting today that many leading legal minds are already predicting that CC has a very strong case btw.

 

[jetset]

Spearmaster says "Caruso has admitted being abrasive - that he is, as I often am. And these abrasive methods do sometimes work, no doubt about that."

The difference, Spear is that you do a lot more upfront and off the boards in addition, and in a balanced and substantiated manner than Caruso does with his often precipitous and inaccurate rants here.

 

[caruso]

Thank you to G2B for that post - we've had our own moments on more than one occasion so it's appreciated extra for that. I've made my points on the matters I've raised regarding Jetset's stance and I'll pursue them no further here: it'd be quite pointless, I can add nothing to them and cannot clarify any further - and one of us has to concede the last word. Conceded.

I'll stick in some more thoughts on the directory anon, should anything have been missed.

 

[bethug]

jetset , i dont know why u take something so personal, caruso has been up front for years.

dont matter if it a directory or crack house, u promote bad casinos you need to be rebuke no matter if u doing good in other areas.

Players have to look out of are self, casino city main reason in going agaist the govement so they can make more money, which i dont blame them.

 

[Casinomeister]

Okay I'm stepping in and taking the ball away.

You are an absolute hypocrite.

I don't want to see any more insults. This discussion has gotten heated enough - and enough is enough. Further comments like this should be confined to either PMing each other or via private emails.

I am siding with Spear on this one. I've known Michael for a number of years, and the issue of having links to problematic casinos was indeed something that was being addressed. As I mentioned before, being abrasive/over emotional/ etc. was unnecessary.

The bottom line is that most people here want this industry to be a safe one for the player. Let's not lose sight of this by letting personal issues get in the way.

 

[spearmaster]

Okay I'm stepping in and taking the ball away.

:machinegu Just when I was getting warmed up...

 

[amandajm]

Too many argues? Remember, it takes 2 to tango.

I am a nobody but have this right. If I worked for Ecogra they would not be linking arms with a firm that has so many rogues on it.

If I worked for Casino City they would not have acredited such firms with the Ecogra standard.

The next time Ecogra join up with a firm I think they should take this as a lesson and actually take a look around the site right?

The work done behind the scenes has not been so great in this instance. Quite a farce actually if the truth be told.

eCOGRA and Casino City share a common goal of helping online casino patrons enjoy a safe and properly supported online gaming experience.

eCOGRA`s focus is on establishing self-imposed regulation in a largely unregulated industry to ensure player protection. Casino City`s focus is on providing players with the information they need to make intelligent choices about the online gaming sites they visit.
.

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Much obliged for all of your time.

 

[spearmaster]

Joey -

eCOGRA will never enter into something lightly. They joined up with Casino City because they both have common goals.

Let's say one of your friends or family makes a mistake which appeared foolish but was clearly not intentional. Would you never speak to them again?

 

[jetset]

Bethug: "i dont know why u take something so personal" Did you read the posts in this thread - that wasn't personal? What would you have done, let it go?

And these unsubstantiated personal attacks are now dismissed as "I can add nothing to them and cannot clarify any further"? I respect the Meister's right to put a stop to this scrap which must be boring the hell out of most of his members, but that sort of ending does not leave me feeling in the slightest bit conciliatory.

Meister: "The bottom line is that most people here want this industry to be a safe one for the player." That is a sensible and valid comment, although I am sure there will always be major differences on how it is best achieved and by whom.

There can never be a single individual who is always right or who can claim sole credit for bringing things about, because it takes many different activities and styles to bring about real improvements in the way players are treated, resolving issues, changing unfair policies and hammering away at the rogues.

What is needed is more tolerance and the realisation that others are also working on issues albeit with a different and lower profile way of going about it. Many others.

 

[caruso]

Okay I'm stepping in and taking the ball away.

Mine, right? Jetset can just carry on, correct? Check out this lot:

I abhor rampant arrogance and unprovoked discourtesy. And after all that hot airComing from someone who confines his activities to name-callingyou have little real idea of what goes on off these message boardsYou activate typing fingers before brain fully in gearYou posture endlessly you yourself have become so consumed by your own importance your smug self-congratulation

You think I should take this, Bryan? Pretty fine list of insults, wouldn't you say? But "you are a hypocrite is NOT acceptable, from me?

I've made clear points about 1) my problems with CC - which ARE now being addressed, and 2) the attitude displayed here which to my mind reeks of hypocrisy. I will NOT reiterate those points made, and I respect your right to put an end to what descended into a cat-fight - but NOT if I am continually provoked liked this. It's either both of us or neither of us - unless you tell me otherwise.

I stand by both my above arguments and ANY rational person reading them would agree on BOTH points. Repeat: but I am NOT about to continually regurgitate the. They are as stated.

G2B - Joey wasn't having a go at CasinoCity, he was pointing out that Ecogra might have done a bit of research on the website in question before getting hooked up with them. Evidently, they did not.

 

[Casino City]

Caruso et al:

I think you will be interested and pleased to see one of the benefits of Windows casino being included in our directory. I believe I can safely say (to the extent anything is "safe" to say here ) that we share a common objective of trying to prevent innocent players from being ripped off by a rogue like Windows Casino. Thus I thought it would be worthwhile to show what actually happens through inclusion in our directory.

One thing we are very good at is search engine interaction. I have attached to this post an image of the current results I got back from google when I searched for "windows casino". You will see that the Online Casino City page for this casino is the second out of 1,650,000 results.

Currently, if you follow the link from this page to our site, you get taken to our new page for windows casino, Link Removed (invalid URL),with the skull and crossbones . The result is that some newbie looking for Windows Casino on google will be reasonably likely to find our listing and be warned rather than just being bombarded by sites promoting it to earn affiliate revenue.

And it gets better. We are going to make modifications to the text that will be displayed by the search engines so it is clear from the description displayed in the search results that there is a problem with Windows Casino. It will take a little while for google and others to pick that up, but they will.

 

[chucho]

How many other skulls and crossbones are up, is that the only one? Netgaming, Crystal Palace do not have them up yet. If you want I could send my 3 year old son down their and he could put the skull and cross bones up in about 5 minutes.

 

[Casino City]

Chucho:

There are currently about 30 skulls and crossbones up. You can see the current list at Link Removed (invalid URL).

We are going through a process of working with Bryan to develop a consistent list of rogue casinos for our initial pass at this. Over time, we will, of course, develop our own strategy for helping to progress this whole area, since it is our objective to do what we can to help.

One example of a casino we are currently tracking down with Bryan is Netgaming. Currently on the casinomeister website, the page covering netgaming is www.casinomeister.com/rogue/net-gaming-casino.html. If you look at this page it says:

The Net-gaming-casino.com (not to be confused with netgamingcasino.com) condones the use of deceptive spam as a marketing scheme. Examples of these misleading messages can be found here.

What is maddening, is that they never responded to complaints nor inquiries concerning these deceptive techniques. Would you entrust them to safekeep your passwords, banking information, and other personal details? I think not.

.........

The url net-gaming-casino.com is a dead link, and the rogue page on the casinomeister site specifically says it should not be confused with netgaming.com, so we are communicating with Bryan to resolve the issue here. My current belief is that netgaming.com is properly marked as a rogue casino, but yesterday I sent a message to Bryan asking for clarification here. I don't want to mark it as rogue until I get a response from Bryan to my question, and of course, he will want to update the casinomeister site as well to be consistent with our discussions.

I hope that example illustrates the nature of what is happening behind the scenes, and why it is not just a five minute job for even a very bright 3 year old.

 

[amandajm]

Joey -

eCOGRA will never enter into something lightly. They joined up with Casino City because they both have common goals.

Let's say one of your friends or family makes a mistake which appeared foolish but was clearly not intentional. Would you never speak to them again?

Of course G2B, i speak to you don't I? Have not always seen eye to eye with you either.

Casinocity. It is quite safe to post on the boards fella.

Now, let's have another thing right.
### The Meister is tougher on those that he thinks have erred than I were on you.
### Got2Bet is tougher on those he thinks have erred than I were on you.
### Jetset is tougher on those he thinks have erred than I were on you.
### You are now being tougher on Windows than I were with you. (and rightfully so, good for you and all players)

Those are facts as I see them and anyone calling me names or whatever over my perception of the way things are will get asked what is their game. Those questioning my view as to what is fact without questioning my motives and indeed calling the facts as they see them will end up with a conversation, not an arguement.

Good luck with the case, hopefully you won't need it.

Cheers.

 

[chucho]

Chucho:

There are currently about 30 skulls and crossbones up. You can see the current list at Link Removed (invalid URL).

We are going through a process of working with Bryan to develop a consistent list of rogue casinos for our initial pass at this. Over time, we will, of course, develop our own strategy for helping to progress this whole area, since it is our objective to do what we can to help.

One example of a casino we are currently tracking down with Bryan is Netgaming. Currently on the casinomeister website, the page covering netgaming is www.casinomeister.com/rogue/net-gaming-casino.html. If you look at this page it says:



The url net-gaming-casino.com is a dead link, the the rogue page on this site specifically says it should not be confused with netgaming.com, so we are communicating with Bryan to resolve the issue here. My current belief is that netgaming.com is properly marked as a rogue casino, but yesterday I sent a message to Bryan asking for clarification here. I don't want to mark it as rogue until I get a response from Bryan to my question, and of course, he will want to update the casinomeister site as well to be consistent with our discussions.

I hope that example illustrates the nature of what is happening behind the scenes, and why it is not just a five minute job for even a very bright 3 year old.

Fair enough, but I feel it is a bit of a no brainer when it comes to casinos such as Netgaming and Crystal palace. I can only speculate what Bryan would say but I think it would go something like this. Bryan, shoud we add a skull and cross bones to Crystal Palace?......Bryan replies, please don't waste my time with such obvious questions. If you are not going to add a skull and cross bones to Crystal Palace, should not add them at all and while at the same time I can appreciate you wanting to be careful and not wrongly mark a casino, some of these casinos don't require any more though, it is clear as day and they should have been marked the 1st day you started marking. Every casino operated by Oliver Curran should be marked right away, and if anyone disagrees with that I would love to hear it.

 

[dominique]

Chucho,

obviously Michael has not been spending hours every day for the last couple of years reading player boards.

He is willing and even eager to conform to player wishes and that is a very big plus. He is working with Bryan and I am sure that will be perfectly satisfactory to all when finished.

He is also doing his best to save the strongholds for players in this industry - because if the US government succeeds in pushing all or most of the privately operated portals out of business, you will have casino operated portals. Already this is a HUGE trend!

You can bet your bejeezus that they will not give a hoot about anything but chanelling players to their own casinos. You as a seasoned player will still be ok, but new players will fall prey to casinos with no recourse and no one to mediate for them. It will be a free for all for the bad casino groups.

What Michael is doing for this industry and for players is extremely important and to be highly commended and supported.

And with a portal of such high search engine visibility, as Michael points out, to be marking rogues clearly is a huge advantage for novice players.

Yeah yeah, I am always carrying on about novice players, but they are who really need good guidance.

 

[Sodax77]

...
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Much obliged for all of your time.

Ok, now i get it (your link). However, i check their site few days ago, and there was some mistakes (>>Only Show Sites With Language: Finnish). But after i sent my feedback, with correct details, they fix immediatly all mistakes, and respond my feedback. So my opinion about CC:

Ok, there is (most popular online casino)
1.Ladbrokes Casino
2.America Casinos
3-5 removed

I ask about America Casinos, because i don't know any Finnish people, who play there, but they give information, where they get details. Fair enough.

Some portals/webmasters don't care %#& about your feedback.
But CC answer (fast).

 

[spearmaster]

he was pointing out that Ecogra might have done a bit of research on the website in question before getting hooked up with them.

eCOGRA, you can rest assured, doesn't just enter into arrangements. I guarantee you that they will not enter into an arrangement with Got2Bet just because I ask.

As I said before - a lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes. I am fully confident that both parties researched each other before entering into an agreement.

Joey - I take it you get my point, then. CC made a mistake - but I would hardly put them before the firing squad.

You'll just have to take my word for it (however good or bad that is) that I am reasonably well acquainted with both eCOGRA and Casino City and their activities.

 

[chucho]

Chucho,

obviously Michael has not been spending hours every day for the last couple of years reading player boards.

He is willing and even eager to conform to player wishes and that is a very big plus. He is working with Bryan and I am sure that will be perfectly satisfactory to all when finished.

He is also doing his best to save the strongholds for players in this industry - because if the US government succeeds in pushing all or most of the privately operated portals out of business, you will have casino operated portals. Already this is a HUGE trend!

You can bet your bejeezus that they will not give a hoot about anything but chanelling players to their own casinos. You as a seasoned player will still be ok, but new players will fall prey to casinos with no recourse and no one to mediate for them. It will be a free for all for the bad casino groups.

What Michael is doing for this industry and for players is extremely important and to be highly commended and supported.

And with a portal of such high search engine visibility, as Michael points out, to be marking rogues clearly is a huge advantage for novice players.

Yeah yeah, I am always carrying on about novice players, but they are who really need good guidance.

I agree, the novice players need advice an like you said, with a portal of such high search engine visibility a lot of new players will find themselves at CC. Anyway, I would like to nominate the following casinos for the skull and cross bones.

Crystal Palace
High Rollers Lounge
My Online Casino
Cleopatra
Americas Online
ClubMardiGras
Club Regal
Vegas Riches
Lucky Coin Casino
American Grand Casino
Golden Comps Casino
Lucky Pyramid Casino
Royal Circus Casino
Winners Playground

Can I also nominate Neteller for doing business with these crooks even though they are not a casino?

 

[caruso]

Nice one, Casino City.

I found your apparent neophite level of online casino nouse frustrating, and inappropriate in the circumstances. You've done quite a lot to rectify that, and willingly. My annoyance was primarily caused by others ' attitudes subsequently displayed, not personally towards yourself. That directory should never have been in that state in the first place, but thank you for making inroads into sorting it out. WTG.

 

[dave_r]

Bryan...

The debate in this thread has been HEALTHY for this forum and for the online casino industry as a whole. It has brought to light numerous issues which need to be addressed by casinos, portals and players.

Caruso and Jetset will never see eye to eye on various issues.

But both parties are extremely well informed.
Both parties have certain vested interests.
Neither party has been overly abusive.
The debate has been EXTREMELY entertaining.

As forum moderator, I hope you will be extremely tolerant of free speech even if your views are diametrically opposed to that of Caruso.

Winneronline stepped over the line when they censored Caruso, and I encourge you not to follow in thier footsteps.

Although I have read personal attacks from BOTH parties, the converation from BOTH parties contains a lot of substance.

The debate between Jetset and Caruso has not turned into a flame war YET.
Bryan -- I encourage you to tolerate the free and open exchange of ideas and information.

 

[snuf419]

they actually have big banners for Crystal Palace meaning CC advertises for CP...don't think Crystal Palace will enjoy a crossbone right beside the ad they paid for. How is CC gonna pay them lawyers?

 

[spearmaster]

Not so sure I agree with the bit about vested interests, Dave, but I definitely do agree that both parties have a wealth of info.

Caruso's "vested interest" is that he's a player. Nothing wrong with that.

Jetset's "vested interest" is that he provides news. Nothing wrong with that either.

What if this had taken place on my forums?

I probably would have let it go with a strong warning regarding abusiveness. But I am otherwise a dictator there. Spam my board about Brandy and you're instantly gone. Spam for anything else and you'll discover soon enough that another misstep will condemn you to the bleachers. But something like this I probably would be rubbing my hands with glee... LOL... as long as it doesn't overstep the bounds of decency and a fair opportunity to spout is given to both sides.

Ah well, I can dream on... LOL...

 

[chucho]

they actually have big banners for Crystal Palace meaning CC advertises for CP...don't think Crystal Palace will enjoy a crossbone right beside the ad they paid for. How is CC gonna pay them lawyers?

CC still has banners for Crystal Palace I give up Trying to get CC to change will probably be as hard as getting paid by Crystal Palace. Assuming what you say is true, that CC still has Crystal Palace banners on it's site, then they are as bad as the operators of Crystal Palace and should not get credit for anything. That is great that they are taking steps to differentiate the good casinos on their list from the bad ones, but as long as they accept money from criminal organizations such as Crystal Palace, they should be treated as criminals.

Here is a start for CC, 1st remove all banners for bad casinos, Crystal Palace and its equivalents. The next step would be to do the skull and cross bones in the directory as to me their is a big difference between simply having a directory with some bad casinos in it and actually having banner adds promoting them.

CC, accept my apologies if you do not have banners for Crystal Palace, but if you do, you do not have a leg to stand on and you should put a big skull and cross bones on your homepage warning visitors not to play at the casinos you promote.