Resolved Casino - Bait and Switch?

furbert

Banned User - troll
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
England
Fraudulent behaviour in my view describes the practice of changing the terms of an offer after a customer has deposited and then refusing to honour the original terms. Which is after all what your cs agent stated you had the right to do.

Non payment is theft. This could also be included under fraudulent behaviour though.
 

SlotMonster

Twitch Streamer - Affiliate
webmeister
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Location
Belarus
I think you will find all answers below in bold.

Anyway, after giving wrong explanation to the OP (Note: in or Bonus T&C we have a statement “BigCasino.co.uk reserves the right to modify, change, suspend or terminate bonus award at any time for any reason without prior notification to players.” – support operator thought the player was asking about Bonus Terms, not about contribution and sent this statement as an explanation) our staff advised to wait for tomorrow when I will come to work and will continue dealing with players.

in no way BigCasino was intended to steal players’ money or make the wagering more difficult for players who has already had a bonus in our casino. As I said, it was technically impossible to change the contribution for new players only, so we are trying to deal with EVERY player involved and find the best solution for both sides. All players will be paid in full if they wish to withdraw their remaining balance including cleared bonuses. If it will require account verification – we will ask for documents, verify them and process players’ withdrawals.

I would like to stop discussing this issue, as it leading us to nowhere. Every forum member will have their own opinion and will share it if they think they should.

Thanks!
Viktar.
 

furbert

Banned User - troll
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
England
I'm sorry you wish to stop discussing this but as I stated already, there is no way your operator misunderstood the question. I clearly explained the situation and my account was checked.

I didn't say you were stealing money but retrospective change of terms is fraud.

Anyway, thank you for responding and I shall of course post back here and thank you on the forum when my withdrawal is made.
 
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chayton

aka LooHoo
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Location
Edmonton Canada
I think we should cut the OP a bit of slack too, imagine if it was you - sign up at a new(ish) casino, take a bonus, you're playing along happily and discover that your WR have been changed in mid stream, you talk to support and they tell you "we're allowed to do that."

I mean seriously, I'd be raising holy hell if it was me, wouldn't you?

Personally I don't see that the OP posting here was trying to damage the casino, as they never mentioned the name, but the chat to support saying that they were going to post may be open to interpretation - it could be construed as a bit of a threat, but it may not have been meant that way.

But fortunately the casino is legit, the manager is more than helpful and I'm sure that everything will turn out just fine for the OP. :thumbsup:

BTW SlotMonster, when are you going to open up the borders so Canadians can play? ;)
 

SlotMonster

Twitch Streamer - Affiliate
webmeister
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Location
Belarus
UPD

We now have released the OP's bonus money, and they are available for withdrawal.

We will process it as soon as the OP submits a payout request.

We also continued dealing with players.

@ chayton - your opinion is understandable, but iirc our staff didn't tell something like "our decision is final and you will play with new T&C". CSR just asked to wait for tomorrow, when manager will be able to look into it.

As for Canadian players: I can't tell you exact date, but if we ever will accept players from your country - you will be the first who receive an email ;)

Regards,
Viktar.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I'm sorry you wish to stop discussing this but as I stated already, there is no way your operator misunderstood the question. I clearly explained the situation and my account was checked.

I didn't say you were stealing money but retrospective change of terms is fraud.

Anyway, thank you for responding and I shall of course post back here and thank you on the forum when my withdrawal is made.


It would be against the "unfair business practices act", which was recently updated. Technically, this would not be fraud, but would be illegal as you stated.

It looks like you are part of a group of players that spotted this miscalculation of WR in Oasis poker, and the casino got caught on the hop, and found it had to act quickly. This meant it didn't get it right in all cases, and left some players with no idea what was going on.

You must have had bad experiences elsewhere, so as soon as you got the reply from CS you assumed this casino too was going to screw you over, and was simply stalling by asking you to come back the next day for a manager to deal with it.

Whilst there is nothing wrong with your initial post, the fact that you gave a blow by blow account of what you were doing to their CS is what constitutes "strong arming the casino" into caving in.

As for the casino, they had better take more care when setting up new promotions, as there may be other +EV situations which could lead to a repeat of this problem.
 

SlotMonster

Twitch Streamer - Affiliate
webmeister
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Location
Belarus
UPD

Thanks, vinyl. As I said before - lesson learned. We will update our SW and train our staff. As for other players, they were just using our Welcome Bonus, so changing the contribution affected them also, and not only our VIPs. So far we contacted them all, except of 2 players who provided invalid phone numbers.

I would like to inform you that the OP's withdrawal of 2.606 GBP was approved and processed (on Moneybookers).

Regards,
Viktar.
 

topoor

Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Location
UK
Im a VIP player here. I wasnt contacted about this change either. I discovered it when I was about to begin wagering on a bonus I received a few days ago.

Im used to dealing with professional casinos such as Ladbrokes, Intercasino and Willhill who dont mess VIP Players around and honour the terms they offer.

Ive received an email in reply to my query about this which offers me nothing other than the opportunity to play without the bonus or withdraw. Im fairly unhappy about it and wont be returning.

I dont think the criticism that is being directed towards the OP is justified as the CS agent was totally wrong in their reply. Reading between the lines and having experience of this casino I can well believe that the agent only offered the manager after being pushed and I too would not be happy not to have this escalated on my behalf and to have the manager provide me with some service and contact me.

The OP did not name the casino (I would have done) and seems fairly calm about the whole thing (I would not have been).

Changing terms after a deposit is made is dishonest and I think the resolution offered is the minimum anyone could expect. Personally I think the terms should have been honoured in full and I wont congratulate a casino for not doing so.
 

SlotMonster

Twitch Streamer - Affiliate
webmeister
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Location
Belarus
topoor, if I identified you right, and we spoked via emails, you were offered such solution because you haven't made any bet with your bonus money. If there were some bets made, I think we would have come to the solution.

As I said before (many times) it is technically impossible to change contribution for new players only. That's why we were dealing with all affected players personally.

You sent us email about your request yesterday in the evening, so like the OP, I replied you after I came back to work today.

Regards,
Viktar.
 

topoor

Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Location
UK
Isnt it possible to allow players to wager under the old terms, manually calculate the wagering and add the bonus once the agreed upon target was reached? This is the approach that I have always been offered by reputable casinos when this type of situation occcurs. I think you could have done a lot more for players should you be so inclined.
 

furbert

Banned User - troll
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
England
Hi Max,

Thanks for your reply. Im still not entirely sure of the breach but I dont think you are saying what you are saying for fun so I must have done something! I apologise for that and can only assure you that I will if I am in a similar situation contact the casino first and wait for a response from management and/or a rep here before rushing in to post on the forums.

I take it there would be no objection to receiving a managers final decision and advising them that as they reached a final decision I would be looking to bring this into the public arena via the casinomeister site?

From reading your previous posts and the forum rules I should not do this if I intend to seek your help using the PAB process and if I am unsure I can always ask you or a moderator via PM?

Im sorry if I broke the rules, it wasnt deliberate and I thank you for talking to me about this and not just throwing me out as a lot of other forums might well have done.

M
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
From reading your previous posts and the forum rules I should not do this if I intend to seek your help using the PAB process and if I am unsure I can always ask you or a moderator via PM?

Yes, public debate of player issues generally kills any PAB that might be filed regarding that issue.

Im sorry if I broke the rules, it wasnt deliberate and I thank you for talking to me about this and not just throwing me out as a lot of other forums might well have done.

No worries, sounds like things will go smoother next time. :thumbsup:
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
Im a VIP player here. I wasnt contacted about this change either. I discovered it when I was about to begin wagering on a bonus I received a few days ago.

Im used to dealing with professional casinos such as Ladbrokes, Intercasino and Willhill who dont mess VIP Players around and honour the terms they offer.

Ive received an email in reply to my query about this which offers me nothing other than the opportunity to play without the bonus or withdraw. Im fairly unhappy about it and wont be returning.

I dont think the criticism that is being directed towards the OP is justified as the CS agent was totally wrong in their reply. Reading between the lines and having experience of this casino I can well believe that the agent only offered the manager after being pushed and I too would not be happy not to have this escalated on my behalf and to have the manager provide me with some service and contact me.

The OP did not name the casino (I would have done) and seems fairly calm about the whole thing (I would not have been).

Changing terms after a deposit is made is dishonest and I think the resolution offered is the minimum anyone could expect. Personally I think the terms should have been honoured in full and I wont congratulate a casino for not doing so.

Just a general comment,

Well...I think players should be treated with the same respect regardless of whether they are VIP or not. So I do not understand why it is important to point out that you are a VIP in this casino.
 

topoor

Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Location
UK
There was a distinction made by slotmonster between VIPs and new signups. I was merely stating my designation within the casino and making it clearer.

I agree with you. A player is a customer reagrdless of their status and they should be treated with the same respect.

Id like to see an answer from slotmonster explaining the reasons why players werent offered the chance to complete wagering under the terms of the offer please.
 

SlotMonster

Twitch Streamer - Affiliate
webmeister
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Location
Belarus
We didn't offer it because we even didn't think about this "option". Mostly because we haven't had such issues before, and were trying to find the solution basing on our previous experience.
 

furbert

Banned User - troll
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
England
Seems strange that does Viktar. Youve been a member on here for 4 years and you recently did the same thing to your players when you changed the wagering on poker games a few weeks ago yet you say you have no experience?
 

ksech

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Location
Here
Seems strange that does Viktar. Youve been a member on here for 4 years and you recently did the same thing to your players when you changed the wagering on poker games a few weeks ago yet you say you have no experience?

Just to butt in a little bit here (cause I really can't justify any real reason to butt in...) except for the fact that Viktar has only been an I-Gaming Rep for a short while. A member here for 4 years but NOT a rep for 4 years.

As an outsider looking in... I can sympathize with both sides. Yes, this could have been handled differently, perhaps in a better manner. BUT, it also could have been handled in a much worse scenerio too. Viktar is at least working WITH you, unlike many reps who are willing to just "brush" the problem under the proverbial carpet. So maybe, cutting him a little bit of slack here, instead of continuously carping at him, would work better to your advantage in the future.


***Going back to lurking now...***
 

topoor

Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Location
UK
We didn't offer it because we even didn't think about this "option". Mostly because we haven't had such issues before, and were trying to find the solution basing on our previous experience.
It does seem hard to believe considering, as the OP has said you did make a similar change previously.
 

SlotMonster

Twitch Streamer - Affiliate
webmeister
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Location
Belarus
It does seem hard to believe considering, as the OP has said you did make a similar change previously.

Our VIP campaign started only 1 week ago (if you check your mailbox - you w'll notice the first email from us was 11/07/2011) and all previous changes were made at the moment when there were no bonuses to be cleared.

Hope I informed you well.

Regards,
Viktar.
 

furbert

Banned User - troll
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
England
Viktar are you and I advise you to think carefully before answering, stating now that not one single person was affected when you changed Texas Holdem Bonus from counting 50% to 10%?
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Viktar are you and I advise you to think carefully before answering...

The question sounds like you are trying to trap a rep into saying something, which is not behaviour that CM supports. If you have evidence then please be up front and produce it and I would encourage Viktar not to answer that until you clarify that.

On a personal note, and as previously mentioned, Viktar is a well-seasoned member of CM and has been for some time prior to jumping the fence and I think he deserves to be shown some respect on that front, even if you feel you are at odds with the casino he represents. There is no problem disputing issues with casinos, just would prefer to see it done in the right way.

Many thanks,

Simmo!
 

furbert

Banned User - troll
Joined
May 25, 2011
Location
England
A well-seasoned member with over 1000 posts that isnt aware that honouring the terms people deposited under is the correct way to behave.

Big wheel keep on turning. :rolleyes:
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
A well-seasoned member with over 1000 posts that isnt aware that honouring the terms people deposited under is the correct way to behave.

Big wheel keep on turning. :rolleyes:

Get to the point or drop it. What exactly is your complaint? Spell it out or leave it be. If you are here to harass a fellow member, you're posting at the wrong place. Last warning.
 
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