Cash-Out Requirement Concerns

texas hooters

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Location
Texas
There are a couple of items listed on a certain casinos list of required documents that concern me and I would like to get your input here if I may. I will copy the list and put the ones that concern me in bold print.

Casino policy and eCOGRA requirements stipulate we obtain certain
details from you before we can process your latest cash-in.

Please print out the Purchase Agreement Form below, sign each page of
it and fax it or scan & e-mail it to us along with:
(a) a signed photocopy of both sides of your credit cards listed below,
(not required if purchases have been made through FirePay only)
(b) a photocopy of one of your recent utility bills
(telephone/gas/water) which shows proof of your current address,
(c) a photocopy of your driver's license,
(d) a photocopy of a recent Bank statement of yours (only required if
cash-in is greater than 10 000) and
(e) a photocopy of any other identification document you might have
(Social Security card / ID card / Passport) (only required if cash-in is
greater than 10 000)


First of all is this normal requirements for all eCOGRA sealed casinos ? And secondly I would NEVER give anyone a copy of my Social Security card and I do not have an additional ID card or Passport. And what if you do not have a bank account, how would you supply a copy of a recent bank statement ?

If someone were lucky enough to win over 10 000 and could not supply these items does this mean they would be denied their cashout ?
 
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Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
That complete list seems a bit excessive but I would expect to have to provide a piece of "photo" ID and a utility bill or similar proof of residence. From recent experience, I think I just provided these two to Intercasino for my progressive win to be sent via ACH and that was enough. I think the majority of decent casinos would accept via alternatives if presented I'm sure, but if you have doubts, I'd email them to check first.

Not being American and familar with a "Social Security" card, why would you not be prepared to provide a copy out of interest?
 
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Let_It_Ride

Non-Gambler
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
europe
texas hooters said:
)

If someone were lucky enough to win over 10 000 and could not supply these items does this mean they would be denied their cashout ?

as recent posts show, even if you provide all documents there is still no guarantee you will be paid, and it seems to be a growing trend among online casinos.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Annoying

A to C are annoying, but expected requirements now, and are stipulated in the eCogra requirements.

D and E seem excessive, unless the bank account is being used to either fund to, or receive winnings from, the casino. If a credit card is used, a credit card statement is extra proof that you own the card. (Someone using a stolen card could still supply the back and front images, but would have difficulties with the statement!).

E) would only apply in some countries. In the UK, there is no ID card, and many people only have a Drivers Licence, and maybe a passport. For those who have neither, it is possible to obtain a voluntary ID card from the local council, but other ID cards beyond this will be unavailable through government sources, but would be obtained from employers or businesses.

Cashouts of 10,000 credits are large, but not excessive for some players (it depends on the sizes of the bets they are prepared to make).

If the casino is reputable, they should be able to discuss what they are prepared to accept beyond the basic minimum.
Yet another argument to make full verification before accepting a deposit compulsory under eCogra rules. Players could not then be in a position of not receiving a cash-in because the casino starts getting "funny" about documentary requirements.
 

Macgyver

Dormant account
PABnononaccred
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Location
North Carolina
Simmo! said:
Not being American and familar with a "Social Security" card, why would you not be prepared to provide a copy out of interest?

In the U.S., a Social Security number (which appears on the card) can be used to establish credit lines, get credit cards, open bank accounts, etc. Obviously, if someone unscrupulous has this number, the risk of identity theft goes through the roof.
 

ballysdb

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Location
Long Island NY
I would like to know what you supply if you do not have any credit cards? When I first started playing at some of these casinos I had a credit card, but now I dont. I rent and have no utility bills in my name. Also, I have a post office box for my address. I also would not want to give out my social security information. FYI: A social security card has your name on it and a 9 digit number that is given to you when you are born or when your parents get one for you. It is unique to you. Someone could use that information for identity fraud. I want to know what happens if you are lucky enough to win say, $50,000? Wouldn't my bank question an ACH for that amount? I know I could leave some in my Instadebit account and play with that and I could transfer the money in small amounts. I think the bank would still question it. Any help with this question would be appreciated.
 

texas hooters

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Location
Texas
Not being American and familar with a "Social Security" card, why would you not be prepared to provide a copy out of interest?

The risk of idenity theft would be my reason also. Idenity theft is very big in the the US.

If a credit card is used, a credit card statement is extra proof that you own the card.

But that is not possible if you use a Prepaid card like Netspend.

I have no problem with A, B, and C and have provided these documents on many occasions for a cash out. D and E have been added to their list only recently. If A, B, and C are good enough up to 10,000 why would they need additional items for over 10,000 ? A drivers license is a picture ID so I see no need for an additional one. I personally have never cashed out more than 10,000 and more than likely this would never be a problem for me but with all the problems of nonpayment I have read about recently I would sure hate to one day happen to get really lucky and not be paid due to not being able to provide these documents.

Thank you all for your comments I think I will take your advice and email the casino and see what they have to say about this. I will let you know what I find out.
 

texas hooters

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Location
Texas
I would like to know what you supply if you do not have any credit cards? When I first started playing at some of these casinos I had a credit card, but now I dont. I rent and have no utility bills in my name. Also, I have a post office box for my address.


If you don't have a credit card then you would never use a credit card to fund your account therefore a copy of it would not apply to you. As far as not having a utility bill and having a post office box for your address I have no idea. Before I deposited at any casino I would get those 2 items cleared up in writing from the casino.
 

texas hooters

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Location
Texas
Here is my email to the casino.

I have noticed that you have added some additional requirements for cashouts over 10,000 and am concerned that if I should happen to get lucky enough to win above that amount that I would not be paid because I could not supply you with the additional documents that you are now requiring. The two items that I am concerned with and could not provide you are: (d) a photocopy of a recent Bank statement of yours (only required if
cash-in is greater than 10 000) and
(e) a photocopy of any other identification document you might have
(Social Security card / ID card / Passport) (only required if cash-in is
greater than 10 000).

(d) I could not supply you with a copy of a recent Bank statement because I do not have a bank account.
(e) I would not supply you with a copy of my Social Security card due to the high risk of identity theft in the US and I do not have any other form of ID other than my drivers license.

Before I make any further deposits into your casino I would like to have a reply from the appropriate person or persons as to how this situation would be handled if it should occur. Thank You.

Here is the casinos reply.

Please note that this is a casino policy and as per eCOGRA requirements

stipulates that we obtain those documents as specified.



Should you have any further queries, please feel free to contact the Support Desk, at anytime.



Kind Regards,

What I would like to know is how can I find out if eCOGRA requires this of all casinos ?
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
texas hooters said:
Here is my email to the casino.

I have noticed that you have added some additional requirements for cashouts over 10,000 and am concerned that if I should happen to get lucky enough to win above that amount that I would not be paid because I could not supply you with the additional documents that you are now requiring. The two items that I am concerned with and could not provide you are: (d) a photocopy of a recent Bank statement of yours (only required if
cash-in is greater than 10 000) and
(e) a photocopy of any other identification document you might have
(Social Security card / ID card / Passport) (only required if cash-in is
greater than 10 000).

(d) I could not supply you with a copy of a recent Bank statement because I do not have a bank account.
(e) I would not supply you with a copy of my Social Security card due to the high risk of identity theft in the US and I do not have any other form of ID other than my drivers license.

Before I make any further deposits into your casino I would like to have a reply from the appropriate person or persons as to how this situation would be handled if it should occur. Thank You.

Here is the casinos reply.

Please note that this is a casino policy and as per eCOGRA requirements

stipulates that we obtain those documents as specified.



Should you have any further queries, please feel free to contact the Support Desk, at anytime.



Kind Regards,

What I would like to know is how can I find out if eCOGRA requires this of all casinos ?

Believe it or not, I think you ought to ask eCOGRA that - and use their response to justify or deny the casino's claims :)
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
My reading of the eGAP requirements of eCOGRA show:

112.R.2 No cash-ins shall be made to a players account where there is reason to suspect money laundering or terrorist activity or where the cash-ins exceed $/10,000 (whether in a single transaction or a series of transactions which appear to be linked) unless the player has been properly identified.

So they are partly correct - but there is nothing that defines exactly what documentation must be produced to constitute "properly identified".

I'd say that they're rightly covering their asses there.
 

texas hooters

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Location
Texas
spearmaster said:
My reading of the eGAP requirements of eCOGRA show:



So they are partly correct - but there is nothing that defines exactly what documentation must be produced to constitute "properly identified".

I'd say that they're rightly covering their asses there.


Thank You for the info Spear ! Looks like I will have to discontinue my online gaming because I refuse to give anyone a copy of my Social Security Card.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
texas hooters said:
Thank You for the info Spear ! Looks like I will have to discontinue my online gaming because I refuse to give anyone a copy of my Social Security Card.

You don't have to do that... LOL... simply cash out less than 10K at a time :thumbsup:
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
But there is also something about a series of linked transactions in excess of $10000.

Texas Hooters: Have you talked to the casino? Can you get a state ID if you don't have a driving license?
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
GrandMaster said:
But there is also something about a series of linked transactions in excess of $10000.

Texas Hooters: Have you talked to the casino? Can you get a state ID if you don't have a driving license?

You're right. Gotta see exactly what a linked transaction is and over what period of time.

Also, some time ago it was quite easy to get state ID without having to obtain a driver's license - at least in California. I don't see why anything should have changed since that time, I would think getting state ID would be something all states would offer...
 

derelict

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Location
....
Driver's license is already listed separately under (c). The OP seemed to be concerned with the requirement of the "other identification document" under (e).

I agree, this is unusually excessive.
 

texas hooters

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Location
Texas
derelict said:
Driver's license is already listed separately under (c). The OP seemed to be concerned with the requirement of the "other identification document" under (e).

I agree, this is unusually excessive.


Exactly !
 

Macgyver

Dormant account
PABnononaccred
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Location
North Carolina
The only thing I could see as a way around this (and I would be very hesitant to actually do it myself) ...

Scan your SS card and black out all the numbers except the last four. That should be enough to verify what they need. I've seen faxback forms for RTG casinos ask players for these last four digits, actually.

Again, I more than likely wouldn't provide it myself, but it's a thought I just had. :thumbsup:
 

rtmlam

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 16, 2005
Location
Florida
Macgyver said:
The only thing I could see as a way around this (and I would be very hesitant to actually do it myself) ...

Scan your SS card and black out all the numbers except the last four. That should be enough to verify what they need. I've seen faxback forms for RTG casinos ask players for these last four digits, actually.

Again, I more than likely wouldn't provide it myself, but it's a thought I just had. :thumbsup:


The SS# requirement certainly could be a sticky situation for many. Most companies that request the last 4 of the social are using this for future verification when corresponding with the company. The US does have strict privacy policy requirements for disclosing specific account information over the phone, email, or mail. This is just one of many verfication requirements a company may request when you call in requesting information on your account along with address, phone, mothers maiden name, etc. I really do not think that online casinos would be checking the social against some sort of credit bureau database to confirm identity. As stated before generally this is only used when applying for credit to determine proper identity in deciding credit worthiness. The copies of utility bills, statements, etc. would not concern me and I guess ultimately if I had a large enough win that required the social, I would have to make a judgement call based on the casino and my confidence in their confidentiality of records. I really just do not see what use this would be to the casino other than possibly they may assume a fraudulent user would have difficulty providing the card and they can confirm the name on the card. I could be wrong but to me the forms of ID such as Drivers license, etc. along with the billing statements from your local utility, etc. should be sufficient for most circumstances unless their is some legitamite reason suspecting fraud, not the norm.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Somewhat vague

The eCogra rules only stipulate that a player be properly identified. Asking for documents that don't exist, by implication meaning the player should "go get them made up" seems counter productive. Although illegal, getting a fake Passport, ID card etc made up by a "professional" forger will be worth it with $10,000 at stake. A copy need only be good enough for faxing, you don't need one to get into the country!

Casinos are doing a good job on behalf of Goodlatte. Preventing US Citizens from being able to satisfy the escalating requirements of online casinos is another way to stop them playing. They could simply make it a federal offense to disclose certain documents to companies operating outside federal juristiction.

This player DID try to find out from the casino what they were supposed to do in the event of a win of this size, and the casino declined to give a meaningful reply. Further case for full prior verification.

Players who rent, don't drive or travel are clearly not supposed to play at eCogra seal casinos as they could never supply enough documents.
Anyone with a medical illness that prohibits them from driving and travelling abroad should also not play, shame this is the very type of player the casinos might make more from as their other social activities are more limited.

If you are ill, AND rent - forget it!!!!! You'll never get paid!
 

texas hooters

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Location
Texas
GrandMaster said:
Jusy deny that you have any other form of ID.


Would YOU chance that ? :eek2: Now that I know this it would be my luck that I would hit something big and not get paid ! I'm not sure I am willing to take that chance and I sure as hell hate fighting for my winnings. Been there and done that ... it seems to take all the fun out of playing. :mad:
 

texas hooters

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Location
Texas
eCOGRA's reply on this :

Dear XXXXX,



I appreciate the effort you have made to contact eCOGRA and explain your predicament.



Every site that has been awarded the eCOGRA Seal of Approval must meet the requirements set out in our eGAP (eCOGRA Generally Accepted Practices) document, a copy of which is available on our website. One of these requirements is that the casino must demonstrate that they Know their Customer (KYC) by obtaining ID verification documentation. This is also one of the guidelines set out in the FATF (Financial Action Task Force) requirements for anti-money laundering world wide. This requirement is part of eGAP in an effort to protect both the player and the operator against things like ID theft and to ensure that the correct person is indeed receiving the funds requested. It is also in place to protect against issues like fraud, hence the need to confirm the credit cards used. All operators who are part of eCOGRA have undergone rigorous reviews by independent big 5 audit firms that are part of our Audit Panel and have conducted probity checks at the highest levels, which gives us the confidence that information requested is secure.



It is up to each operator what documents they request in order to fulfil the ID verification of a player. I am sure that if you supply a copy of your drivers license, a recent utility bill and the credit card information requested that this would be acceptable. The Risk department would then review the documents and make the decision if further information was required, this is however the exception and not the rule. If you feel that the casino is being excessively onerous you can always request that we mediate the situation.



If you require any further assistance with this or any of the other eCOGRA approved sites, please feel free to contact me.



Kind Regards,

Tex Rees
 
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