Carnival trying to rip me off - advice please

[copper007]

Carnival sent me an email promotion offering a 200% bonus.

I cut and pasted the terms (but unfortunately didnt take a screenshot)

Here is the cut and paste

April 2nd 00:01 - April 15th 23:59 EST (casino Time)

All PLAY BONUS credits are for wagering purposes only. Bonuses will automatically be removed from players account after a withdrawal request.

Only recipients of this promotional email are eligible for the bonus.
Bonuses will only be given on deposits of $// 20 (R150) or more. You cannot claim any other bonus in-conjunction with this promotion, including the first deposit bonus.

This promotion is valid for 1 deposit only.
The maximum amount of bonuses you can receive is $// 200 (R1200).
Wagering requirements are 30x the deposit and bonus before withdrawing any winnings.

Bets in all forms of Baccarat, Craps, Roulette and Sic Bo do not count towards the wagering requirements of this bonus. The casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a players withdrawal if the Bonus is wagered on the above games, before the wagering on allowed games is completed fully.

Management reserves the right to change the terms and conditions of this offer at any time. Management's decision is final.

I played video poker and withdrew 1080 after the sticking bonus was removed, toady I received this email

Dear Adam,



My name is Chris I am your Carnival Casino manager, unfortunately, your withdrawal request can not be processed, since you have wagered your bonus money, and won, on a restricted games -Video Poker Double.



As mentioned in Carnival Casino Bonus terms of use, Bets placed in the games in all forms of Baccarat, Craps, Roulette, Sic Bo, Pontoon, Casino War and Video Poker Double do not fulfill players' obligations with regards to the minimum wagering requirements

The Casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player's original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the bonus is wagered on the above games, before the wagering on allowed games is completed fully. Please see the website link :

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Since you did not contact to have the bonus removed before playing the restricted game, as advised, we have no other option except removing the winnings from your balance

I double checked the email link and they've updated their terms between April 6th when I played. and now to reflect their claim, but basically I played an allowed game and now they've double tracked to steal my 980 winnings, how should I go about addressing this problem? Advice please. Thanks Ad

 

[lojo]

I don't see a contact for them here, nor do they seem to be rogued.

Their contact page on website says you can live-chat with them from within the casino. Have you tried that?

If no help https://www.casinomeister.com/player-arbitration-pab/ pitch a bitch.

Good luck

 

[Da_Gambla]

It's going to be on YOU to prove they had other T&C's when you signed up and first started playing.

I'd go the sneaky route, and try to get a staff member to tell you when they updated their T&C. Be anonymous... try:

"Hi! I signed up a month ago or so and received a bonus. I haven't had time to login for awhile, but noticed your terms had changed. It now says Video Poker Double is no longer valid for play-through. Can you verify this is now the policy, and can you tell me when this changed?"

If you get someone to slip and say the T&C was changed on a date AFTER your first wager, you have a VERY legitimate bitch, and should be paid. If they don't slip up, it will be hard to prove it without a screenshot. Good luck!

- Keith

 

[lojo]

Google spidered and cached the index page on the 8th.. no help. Internet Archive has no pages archived in 2007...
As it was a link from email it may not have been indexed or archived by the engines anyway.

Like Keith says, the copy and paste doesn't hold much water compared to a screenshot.

Again, have you tried live chat and asked to talk to Chris?

Has anyone else had experience with Carnival?

Good luck

 

[java1980]

yeah a very bad experience with them. not a trustworthy place. i wiould send them my id docs via email and they decline that they have recieved them. and asked me to fax them. if i fax them they will complain that not clear docs. so they played games like this for over a month. and finally got paid.
avoid at all costs.

 

[copper007]

hi guys thanks for your input. I dont know how to check old spidered internet files, but this was the link which has been altered. If anyone has the original screen shot I would love to have a copy

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from an email titled

Come on over for some b-o-n-u-s-e-s!

I have emailed the casino banking manager (no response yet ) after that i will pitch a bitch.

 

[lojo]

Outdated URL (Invalid)

Still can't find anything.

If you use google you can type in the casino name and in the returned results you'll see 'cached' and 'similar pages' under the description.

I was able to find the april 5 link above (no help) by doing an advanced search.

I would still suggest live chat or phoning them if it will be toll free. Emails are bad at even some good casinos.

Java1980 eventually got paid. Maybe he has some tips for you.

edit: checked the html source on the page and they didn't timestamp it or leave any other clues I could find

 

[mikepipe]

i found the old t and cs from dec 12005:
Carnival Casino reserves the right to change the terms and conditions of this offer at any time and it is your responsibility to periodically check here for changes and updates.

Using the player's deposit and bonus funds to wager on Craps (all sorts of Craps) , Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Sic Bo (all sorts of Sic Bo), Blackjack (all sorts of Blackjack) and Baccarat (all sorts of Baccarat), Jacks or Better (all sorts of Jacks or Better), Aces and Faces (all sorts of Aces and Faces), and Deuces Wild (all sorts of Deuces Wild) does not fulfill the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements for $ and .

Please Note that only players from Great Britain may deposit with s (GBPs).

The bonus credits are for wagering purpose only, and you may not cash out the bonus. You may only cash out your winnings. Only withdrawal of an amount superior to the Play Bonus will be processed, and the Play bonus will be deducted from your withdrawal request.

The casino reserves the right to review transaction records and logs from time to time, for any reason whatsoever. If, upon such review, it appears that player/s are participating in strategies that the casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive, the casino reserves the right to revoke the entitlement of such player to the promotion.

In the event of a dispute, all decisions made by the casino will be final.


there is very useful tool, which was posted by a forum member (sorry - forgot, who it was - - Zoozie??!)

try it yourself:

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[lojo]

The internet archive is AWESOME. There are old movies and cartoons there, scads of music, old propaganda films, (duck and cover, etc.) etc.

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gets you there and the 'wayback machine' is web.archive.org

Great place to kill time

Here are some German films

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[vinylweatherman]

Change

I think they have come under new management.

They are now seemingly run by "Enter Casino", and include a whole nest of former "rogues" in the stable. The description of the bonus mailer looks the same as the ones I get from Enter Casino. I did play there a little, but then smelled a large rodent and quit. I was then phoned and offered a very large and very "special" bonus, which is one of the things to look out for in the "spot a rogue" guide. I later received a mailer that marked the takeover, and invited me to sign up with the lavish bonuses at all the Sister casinos. One look at these "sisters" was enough to put me off for good, as the list included many of the "spammers" that had been bombarding my mailbox along with brands that have had past issues of non-payment by pulling obscure terms out of the hat.
It now looks like they have changed terms recently, but made this retrospective, and applied them to void winnings from a player who played a game that was allowed at the time the bonus was redeemed.
I am not interested in play bonuses with long lists of game exclusions, and even less interested in casinos that seem to think it OK to change the rules between deposit and withdrawal, and then void winnings based on the new rules.

 

[cyprean]

Excuse me but what how does finding their old T&Cs help the player? I know you wanna help but..

If Carnival sends written e-mail promotions, they should respect the rules they have given in that specific promotion.

Playtechs, especially Carnival-likes, love to advert promos with GREAT terms and not respect the tules. Usually their live help is clueless. It's when you cash out you realize it's only Slots or whatever.

 

[lojo]

Excuse me but what how does finding their old T&Cs help the player? I know you wanna help but..

If Carnival sends written e-mail promotions, they should respect the rules they have given in that specific promotion.

Playtechs, especially Carnival-likes, love to advert promos with GREAT terms and not respect the tules. Usually their live help is clueless. It's when you cash out you realize it's only Slots or whatever.

As I understood it, the terms weren't in the email. The email contained a ink to the offer. If he were to have a copy of the offer as it was presented to him (time travel) he would have more ammo.

As far as I can tell he hasn't tried everything he can yet to contact them and resolve it.

I don't have any experience with playtechs. But like you said, just trying to help

 

[aka23]

I double checked the email link and they've updated their terms between April 6th when I played. and now to reflect their claim, but basically I played an allowed game and now they've double tracked to steal my 980 winnings, how should I go about addressing this problem? Advice please. Thanks Ad

There are many ways to lookup old websites besides archive.org and google cache. Here is a summary of the T&C from 3/30/07 (from live.com). If the promotions email listed different terms, then it could either be an intentional rule difference that some at Carnival were not aware of, or a sloppy email promotions writer.

€//$ 777 Welcome Bonus!

* On your 1st deposit, receive a 100% match bonus worth up to €//$ 200
* On your 2nd deposit, receive a 50% match bonus worth up to €//$ 577
* The bonus may not be combined with any other bonus unless stated otherwise
* In the interest of fair gaming, wagering requirements are 12x (times) your deposit plus play bonus before cashing out any amount higher than your initial deposit amount. (20x for GBP)
* Bets placed on all forms of Baccarat, Live Baccarat, Craps, Roulette, Sic Bo, Pontoon, Casino War and Video Poker Double do not count towards the wagering requirement.
* The Casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player's original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the bonus is wagered on the above games, before the wagering on allowed games is completed fully.
...

 

[aka23]

I think they have come under new management.

They are now seemingly run by "Enter Casino", and include a whole nest of former "rogues" in the stable.

Enter Casino, Carnival, and Club Dice are all owned by Empire Online. I consider Empire below average, but several steps above rogue.

 

[Da_Gambla]

There are many ways to lookup old websites besides archive.org and google cache. Here is a summary of the T&C from 3/30/07 (from live.com):

//$ 777 Welcome Bonus!

* On your 1st deposit, receive a 100% match bonus worth up to //$ 200
* On your 2nd deposit, receive a 50% match bonus worth up to //$ 577
* The bonus may not be combined with any other bonus unless stated otherwise
* In the interest of fair gaming, wagering requirements are 12x (times) your deposit plus play bonus before cashing out any amount higher than your initial deposit amount. (20x for GBP)
* Bets placed on all forms of Baccarat, Live Baccarat, Craps, Roulette, Sic Bo, Pontoon, Casino War and Video Poker Double do not count towards the wagering requirement.
* The Casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player's original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the bonus is wagered on the above games, before the wagering on allowed games is completed fully.
...

If that's from March 30th, and copper played from April 6th to now, this doesn't look good for copper...

- Keith

 

[cyprean]

Perhaps OP can recover the old e-mail and find the link to the terms.

 

[lojo]

He claims he copied them and that they changed them later. The link he shared shows Video Double Poker disallowed as does the March link.

 

[copper007]

Just to clarify, I do have the email, which had a link to the terms and conditions which I posted. Since I played they have altered the page which the email has linked to. Still no reply from Carnival after 24hrs.

Thanks for all the replys here.

 

[sdaddy]

Just to clarify, I do have the email, which had a link to the terms and conditions which I posted. Since I played they have altered the page which the email has linked to.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, the address of the page which the email was linked to was

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, right?

And if that's the case, what is your explanation of why a March 30th archive of that page includes language disallowing Video Poker Double?

 

[chuchu59]

Just why does the burden of proof be on the player? The casino offered a bonus with explicit terms and the player accepted it. It is wrong to simply state that the casino can change the terms as and when they wish. Rather, they should have stated an expiry date on the offer. Any alterations to the terms should be stated afresh in a new offer. If they had wanted to alter the terms of a particular offer, they should have used all possible means to communicate this to the intended players through issuing a subsequent e-mail to those that had been offered the promotion in question. It is irresponsible to say that they changed the terms of offer and the player was too naive not to take notice by visiting the site. Even if he had and deposited 10 minutes later, it is still possible that they were changed in the interim.

 

[Da_Gambla]

Just why does the burden of proof be on the player? The casino offered a bonus with explicit terms and the player accepted it. It is wrong to simply state that the casino can change the terms as and when they wish. Rather, they should have stated an expiry date on the offer. Any alterations to the terms should be stated afresh in a new offer. If they had wanted to alter the terms of a particular offer, they should have used all possible means to communicate this to the intended players through issuing a subsequent e-mail to those that had been offered the promotion in question. It is irresponsible to say that they changed the terms of offer and the player was too naive not to take notice by visiting the site. Even if he had and deposited 10 minutes later, it is still possible that they were changed in the interim.

Not sure you understand where this issue is going.

At this point, it is -quite- possible copper is either mistaken, or did not correctly read the terms page he was referred to. It appears that a T&C page exists BEFORE copper signed up stating that Video Poker Double does not count.

It is also perfectly possible that the casino sent copper an email link to a T&C page that was not accurate, but has since been updated. If they did do that, it's almost impossible to prove without a screenshot.

Honestly, if a player makes a claim where he only has a cut and paste of text, I don't know how you can ask why the burden of proof is on him...?

As far as it being unfair to change T&C at anytime, well, that's just how business is done. Putting an expiry on an offer is different than an expiry on T&C. An 'offer' is something like '100% match up to $100, subject to T&C. Offer expires on April 30th, 2007'. That's appropriate. But T&C are there to protect casinos from rogue players (yes, they do in fact exist...). If they see rogue behavior or patterns, they have a right to immediately change the terms. It's a complicated issue, but bottomline is, casinos have a right to protect themselves, just as the players do. T&C's do not expire, they change. The question here is whether the terms changed in the middle of play, which would be totally unfair to copper. An old T&C page suggests that the disallowed play was in effect prior to copper's signup and play. The new question then becomes, did they intentionally send copper to a bogus T&C page. Unfortunately, that burden of proof HAS to fall on the accuser.

Folks, there is such a things as 'do your own due diligence' in life. Do not rely on email offers and links, and then just jump in with all of your cash. In this climate, it is imperative that you COMMUNICATE in real time with the casino you expect to deposit with. Get it IN WRITING that they are going to allow or disallow a particular game you want to play. You can spend a hour communicating with the casino and getting your T&C questions answered up front, or you can spend 8 months chasing your money after the fact. The choice is clear.

- Keith

 

[chuchu59]

Correct me if I am wrong but it does seem that the original offer did not include a link to any webpage. The link only existed in the mail sent to copper after he won and tried to cash out. Whilst I agree that casinos have to protect themselves they must only change the terms of an offer when the bonuses in question are deemed to have been abused and even then they should take certain steps to communicate the revised terms to the recipients of the offer. In this instance, they simply changed their terms and conditions at will. One thing that should be considered is whether they stated in their mail that the terms and conditions at the website is final. If this isnt stated why should the player have to go to the webpage to look for anything related to the offer.

This is a specific offer and the disallowed games are clearly stated. If they dont want to be involved in any hassles, they should simply have stated that the disallowed games are stated in the webpage instead of listing them out and reneging on the offer later.

 

[Da_Gambla]

Correct me if I am wrong but it does seem that the original offer did not include a link to any webpage. The link only existed in the mail sent to copper after he won and tried to cash out. Whilst I agree that casinos have to protect themselves they must only change the terms of an offer when the bonuses in question are deemed to have been abused and even then they should take certain steps to communicate the revised terms to the recipients of the offer. In this instance, they simply changed their terms and conditions at will. One thing that should be considered is whether they stated in their mail that the terms and conditions at the website is final. If this isnt stated why should the player have to go to the webpage to look for anything related to the offer.

As I understand it, you'd be wrong...

Carnival sent me an email promotion offering a 200% bonus.

I cut and pasted the terms (but unfortunately didnt take a screenshot)

Here is the cut and paste [..snip..]

What appears to be happening is, copper was sent an email offer. Inside the emailed offer was a link to a T&C page. Copper has a cut/paste of that page, but not a screenshot. If the T&C was spelled out in the actual email, he would have the email as proof and we wouldn't be discussing old T&C pages.

The link only existed in the mail sent to copper after he won and tried to cash out.

Again, if I'm reading this transaction correctly, copper visited a T&C page provided in an email. In a seperate email denying the cashout, the rep referred copper to the T&C page. Copper is saying that the new page has different terms on it than the one he originally visited. The issue is the possibility of two different T&C pages. Since others have investigated and found previous T&C for this casino which clearly state Video Poker Double is disallowed, the only possibilities left are that copper misread the original page, has altered the text from that page, or the casino intentionally took copper to a bogus T&C page with the intent of fraud.

In this instance, they simply changed their terms and conditions at will.

If the old T&C page that was dug up is valid, then no, they didn't change the T&C at will. But even if they did, they are entitled to do so. It's their place of business. What I will agree with is, if a player BEGINS actual play under one set of terms, and those terms are changed, then the player should be paid for the play under the old terms.

One thing that should be considered is whether they stated in their mail that the terms and conditions at the website is final. If this isnt stated why should the player have to go to the webpage to look for anything related to the offer.

Why? That's simple chuchu... because you want to protect your interest in getting paid if you win. It's up to each individual player; it's their money. If it's too much hassle to clarify what constitutes a win, then deposit and go for it. If you win and they deny your cashout, then you'll be in line for months arguing your case. If you lose your case, I guess you can chock up the initial deposit to 'entertainment expenses'. If you take one or two steps to protect your interests, you will have much greater footing with which to argue a cashout denial. You might not read all the fine print on a coupon for .50 off a loaf of bread, nor might you contact the company making sure there's nothing hidden in the coupon. But when depositing at a CASINO where REAL money, and potentially lots of it is at stake, I do think it'd be in your best interest to read the fine print and speak to people. The only stupid questions are the ones not asked up front.

- Keith

 

[copper007]

Hi guys I'll try explaining again. The promotional email linked to this webage

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At the date I played (6th April) The text on this webpage was as outlined in the 1st post.

April 2nd 00:01 - April 15th 23:59 EST (casino Time)

....
Bets in all forms of Baccarat, Craps, Roulette and Sic Bo do not count towards the wagering requirements of this bonus. ......

Between April 6th and April 10th they have changed the text on that webpage to read

Bets in all forms of Baccarat, Craps, Roulette, Sic Bo and Video Poker Double do not count towards the wagering requirements of this bonus. The casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player’s original deposit from a player’s withdrawal if the Bonus is wagered on the above games, before the wagering on allowed games is completed fully.

So essentially they have changed the terms after I played and have retrospectively apply them to me. I cut and paste the terms then IMMEDIATELY PLAYED so there is no reason that I should not be paid in full.

 

[Da_Gambla]

Hi guys I'll try explaining again. The promotional email linked to this webage

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At the date I played (6th April) The text on this webpage was as outlined in the 1st post.



Between April 6th and April 10th they have changed the text on that webpage to read



So essentially they have changed the terms after I played and have retrospectively apply them to me. I cut and paste the terms then IMMEDIATELY PLAYED so there is no reason that I should not be paid in full.

Ok, let's assume the old T&C dug up was valid on that date. Then let's assume on April 5th they revised them and Video Poker Double was not an excluded game. Then on April 7th, they revised them again and re-excluded it. This is all valid for the casino to do. There is no expiry on T&C's. There is no body that governs when a casino can change these terms, or how often. They could change them hourly and be completely within their right to do so.

So I refer back to my original post to you... you have to find out if Video Poker Double was allowed by T&C when you made your first wager. You then have to find out when those terms changed back to exluding Video Poker Double. All wagers you made during that period are valid. All wagers you made AFTER the new T&C's were posted are not valid. The second new T&C's are posted publicly, they go into effect immediately unless stated otherwise. This means that even if 1 or 2 days of play were within T&C, the play after the new T&C's are not 'grandfathered', they become invalid.

I do not have any idea how you will prove this with only text as your backup. I also do not know anything about this particular casino, such as whether or not they consistently do this sort of crap, or whether or not they are roguish in particular. The new T&C makes clear, and the old T&C dug up validate the casino's position. I don't mean to be the Devil's Advocate here, but if you took the time to copy some text for your records, why didn't you take the screenshot? They both are easily done and take up the same amount of time (seconds...). If you had that screeny, we'd be having a different discussion entirely...

- Keith