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Bonus Complaint Carnival Casino. (Am i really in the wrong?)

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by bianca110, Jun 30, 2011.

    Jun 30, 2011
  1. bianca110

    bianca110 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Hair dresser
    Location:
    London
    Hello to you all.

    I wonder if anyone can see what i have done wrong here?

    I signed up to Carnival casino a while ago and since then they have told me I would not be getting paid and now I really don't known what to do...

    I started by placing 100 pound hands on blackjack. Their bet max. I managed to win quite big and decided not to play as risky. So remembering i had to wager a certain amount i reduced my bet size.

    They come back to me with the below. (I cant see how what i did was wrong although they have come back with these accusations)

    Dear Bianca,



    After a thorough investigation, your account ............... has been found in contravention of our Promotional Terms and Conditions. We must draw your attention to the particular condition:
    "11.6 Your use of any Bonuses is subject to our review for irregular playing patterns. To ensure fair gaming, we consider low margin, equal, zero bets or hedge betting to be irregular gaming for the use of Bonuses. Further examples of irregular playing patterns also include, but are not limited to: (i) placing single or multiple bets on any single game that sums over the value of seventy percent or more of the bonus credited with the intention of clearing the Bonus until the release requirements have been met; (ii) if we suspect you have attempted to use a Bonus contrary to the spirit of the promotional offering; (iii) if we suspect that you have sought to deviously profit from a Bonus offered by us in good faith (for example, the acceptance of a Bonus, wagering the minimum amount and immediately withdrawing the funds). In the event that we deem that an irregular playing pattern has taken place, we reserve the right to prevent you from cashing out Player Account funds and/or withhold any of your winnings derived from your use of the Bonus."







    The above chart shows your first and second (last) game session in the casino followed by screenshots of your game sessions for showing your betting patterns. As you can see you hade an average bet of £110 when you started playing. After you doubled up you started playing the same game with an average bet of £11 to safely complete the wagering requirements of the bonus you received.

    In light of the exploitative nature of these actions, which directly contravene the standard terms and conditions, we will be annulling the wagers that were placed by you, your original deposit amount of £200 in reference to the your account will be returned to you and your account will subsequently be closed. Please do not attempt to open further accounts across our platforms as the accounts will subsequently closed.
    ------------------------------

    Thanks Everyone
    Bianca
     
  2. Jun 30, 2011
  3. Repro

    Repro Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Financial
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Again a casino that uses the "spirit of the bonus" argument.

    I can't find them in the accredited list or which group they belong to. Only thing i could find it's a playtech.

    You can consider a PAB.

    IMO any casino who uses this argument should be rogued right away.
     
  4. Jun 30, 2011
  5. Seventh777

    Seventh777 RIP Roy

    Occupation:
    Builder, mainly renovations.
    Location:
    Planet Tharg, dark side, where nothing grows.
    Wtf?, so in the same context - if you claim a bonus but burn out before you have made the w/r they should give you the bonus again, as surely *the spirit of the bonus* protocols have not been met by the casino, for bonuses are not intended for players to actually win with, but are purely for fun!!!!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.

    If your initial bonus was 100% of 200 then your bet size would have to be 140+ to break their bonus betting amounts, and you started placing 110 bets on BJ which is hardly hedge betting, I don`t think there is a gambler on this planet that would attempt to hedge bet playing BJ lol.

    In all honesty I really cannot see how you have abused this bonus.

    GL with getting your money ;).
     
  6. Jun 30, 2011
  7. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    How much was the bonus?

    They are part of the AffClub stable, including Nobel, Club Dice, Entercasino(!), Casino King(!) and a few others.
    Not accredited and not rogue - somewhere in that grey area between.

    This means the OP can Pitch-A-Bitch if they are unable to resolve this themselves.
    Bianca: First please send the casino representative a Private Message about your problem by following this link: http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/private.php?do=newpm&u=16459

    After giving them a reasonable amount of time, if they do not put things right to your satisfaction, you can Pitch-A-Bitch.
    This is CasinoMeister's FREE service to help players with problems at non-rogue casinos.
    To submit your PAB, click here: http://www.casinomeister.com/problems.php
    Be sure to read ALL the terms for submitting a PAB, including the PAB FAQs here: http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...?faq=cmfaq_pab

    KK
     
    2 people like this.
  8. Jun 30, 2011
  9. greasemonkey

    greasemonkey Banned User - flaming

    Occupation:
    gaurd
    Location:
    USA
    There was a really long thread about this same group enforcing ticky-tack terms that are really gray in order to get out of payments. I would say they are quite disgusting in their behavior.
     
  10. Jun 30, 2011
  11. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Worse still, this is happening with the blessing of the GRA, and it seems that even though this play is fully within the specific rules for the bonus, operators are allowed to "deem that in oour opinion the play was an attempt to profit from the bonus", rather than to use it "in the spirit in which it was offered".

    In order to save Max time with this bullshit, the whole lot should be placed under "not recommended - licensing jurisdiction supports "spirit of the bonus" rulings by operators"

    Those that actually USE this loophole should end up in the pit.

    They should redesign the rules so that players are left in no doubt as to what is allowed. In most cases, rather than seeming to allow, even encourage, table game play as a means to gather data about "intent" during the play on the welcome bonus, they should restrict it to slots and similar games that have no real "strategy" to them, and only offer bonuses for games like blackjack to their regular players after they have demonstrated an intent to play for risk and entertainment, rather than best strategy to make a profit.

    From my perspective, designing a bonus as an entrapment to weed out "bonus hunters" from the rest is "not in the spirit" of how a reputable business should conduct itself just in order to guarantee profitabilty.

    They deserve what's coming to them, and that goes for the licensing jurisdictions, as well as the operators.

    Looks like the LGA (Malta) has competition this year for a certain award;)
     
  12. Jun 30, 2011
  13. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    I would say it was a 50% bonus.

    If the player made bets of more than seventy percent of the bonus then they broke an explicit term. It would not be a spirit of the bonus issue. If one is going to use advantage play like this they need to be more attentive. I'm sure they'll get plenty of sympathy over at bonerbeaters.com

    Even if it was a 100% bonus, the average bet was $110 which means they could well have bet more than $140 on a few hands. In fact, if they were playing max bet of $100 its almost certain due to double downs or splits etc.
     
  14. Jun 30, 2011
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The OP was supplied with a copy of their play, so it should be easy to settle this argument about explicit breaches of the rules vs "spirit of play".
     
  16. Jul 1, 2011
  17. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Where's the "ticky-tacky" part?

    It expressly states what is against the rules. It gives an explicit instruction about bets over seventy percent which the player violated.

    I'm sure the crew at bonusbleaters.com and their ilk are up in arms, but the simple fact is that the player in both cases didn't READ the terms properly prior to playing, so it's tough cookies to them.

    Players who engage in this kind of play KNOW that it is frowned upon at just about every online casino, so if any of them had an ounce of common sense they would go through terms with a fine-toothed comb every single time.....but from what is said at bogusbeaters.com confiscations are seen as a cost of doing business, which just proves my point that these players know exactly what they're doing. If they get cashouts denied, they go around the forums whipping up support from those other "poor players" who have been so badly ripped off for breaking rules that everyone else is happy to follow. Not only that, they get to take up Max's time with PABs when they know they're in the wrong. Quite pathetic really.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Jul 1, 2011
  19. Glunn11

    Glunn11 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Content writer/online marketer
    Location:
    Idaho
    I have to agree with Nifty, but everyone else's concerns about the casino are certainly valid. The only concrete term in that entire spiel is the number 70%. Terms (ii) and (iii) are quite rogue because they allow the casino to judge, in its sole discretion, whether or not you were following the "spirit" without offering any guidelines whatsoever to constitute what that spirit is. I wouldn't play at a place that goes to such lengths to say, "Large bonus winnings are attached with a 100% commission".

    The fact that they go out of their way to rephrase the "spirit of the bonus" crap with two separate terms is troubling.

    Regardless, I have no qualms about the 70% rule, and it is certainly up to the player to look at this before taking a bonus. If the 70% rule was being employed without a bonus, then I would have a problem, but as it stands, it is a fair promotional rule to curb advantage players.
     
    2 people like this.
  20. Jul 1, 2011
  21. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    I agree with all of your post, except that you are ASSUMING it was a 50% bonus which would mean the OP did break the rules.
    We don't know yet what the bonus was - if it was 100% then, from what has been stated by the OP above, they did not break the rules.
    You are probably right about it being a bonus-bagger though, and I don't expect to see the OP coming back here with more info or to pursue it further.

    KK
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2011
  22. Jul 1, 2011
  23. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Possibly, but if it was a 100% bonus they could have placed a $100 bet (the max) on the initial deal and then doubled down for another $100 which would make it well over 70% of the bonus, since the "total bet" would be 100 + 100. Until we see the play log I guess we are....guessing :p
     
  24. Jul 1, 2011
  25. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well, the affiliate programs for these casinos CHOOSE to do business with these "bonus bagging" forums, often to the extent of offering special bonus deals that the webmasters can offer. Thus, the casino KNOWS what they are getting from these affiliates, yet continues to allow them to bring players to them on the back of marketing that spells out how to "bonus bag" and make profit.

    These casinos are therefore deliberately seeking to entrap these "bonus baggers" with their own "no risk betting strategy", where they can ensure such players are profitable overall by selectively using vague "spirit of" terms to void a portion of winnings. From the complaints, it even seems that the goalposts are regularly moved so that profit is maintained, but not at the expense of shutting down the stream of "bonus baggers" to the extent that these webmasters simply stop promoting the brands.

    If the casinos REALLY didn't want this type of player to even think of trying, they would automatically eject affiliates who marketed on the basis of giving step by step guides on how to beat the bonuses being advertised.

    The affiliates don't lose if they choose the right deal, the casino doesn't lose because it can control risk through the arbitrary use of these "spirit of" terms, and it is only the PLAYER that loses out because they are NOT having their play voided when they lose, but if the SAME pattern generates a win, they only get back their deposits.

    For players, such forums are the WORST places to use when clicking through to join a casino. The operator merely has to look at which affiliate an account is tagged to to prejudge a player as a "bonus abuser", and who's play will ALWAYS be especially audited for reasons not to pay.

    I have been careful NOT to join by clicking through from such forums, and have had nothing more than a bonus ban for winning more than I have deposited overall.

    The problem with such forums is that the players are NOT naturally adept at "bonus bagging", but are following a fairly rigid step by step playing formula posted by the webmasters. Thus, spotting such players is VERY easy, yet they don't think they have done anything wrong because they have followed the advice of what they think is an "expert", and that the casino is OK with the way their offers have been marketed.

    I have occasionally looked at such forums, and they advertise a bonus that is easily beaten for profit, tell players EXACTLY how to beat it, and THEN to my astonishment boast that they have negotiated an exclusive deal with the casino that allows players who click through their banners to get an even EASIER bonus to beat for even MORE profit.

    These casinos know EXACTLY what is going on, yet pretend they have been the unsuspecting victims of a "fraud ring" or a bunch of "colluding players" when they miscalculate and face heavy LOSSES through such a deal going sour on them.

    The players caught up feel that they have been deliberately entrapped by a roguish collusion between the casino and the affiliate website, and both have ripped them off. This makes them mad, and eager for revenge, which they often dress up as their desire to "warn others".

    If they were REALLY skilled "advantage players", they would read these forums and guides, check the mathematical background, and then consider the following actions:-

    1) EVERYBODY will be playing like that, and will be spotted in no time - so I will use the underlying principles, but create a DIFFERENT way to beat the bonus so that I don't look like one of the group.

    2) The casino will know from my affy tag that I have read this guide, so I will either join directly by typing the address into my browser, or search for a deal through a non bonus bagging forum.

    3) I will always play beyond the exact WR, and NOT keep asking support every 5 minutes where I'm at, even though this will not yield the maximum possible profit.

    4) I will steer clear of the "bleedin' obvious, such as playing only the best odds Blackjack game, or betting everything on my first bet.

    5) I will include a variety of games in my play, but will play in a disciplined manner when it comes to bankroll management.

    6) I will deliberately LOSE on the introductory ND free chip, and take them out on the welcome bonuses.

    7) I will not "do" all the "sisters" in one go.

    8) I will drop a few unbonused deposits at casinos that offer a decent deal for regular players.

    9) I will NOT lay all my cards out on the table straight away when a dispute arises.

    10) I will arm myself with all the documentation a casino is bound to ask for, and some that they DON'T think I would be able to produce when they are stalling.

    11) Every time I get swiped by a new excuse or stalling tactic, I will create countermeasures such that I will not be swiped a second time by the same tactic.

    12) I will read the terms, all of them, and when in doubt I will NOT take the risk.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Jul 1, 2011
  27. Jbedde73

    Jbedde73 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Entrepeneur
    Location:
    Belgium
    DEJA VU

    Wow... this is so....... I will refrain myself for commenting any further.
     
  28. Jul 1, 2011
  29. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Good list Vinyl.

    Could also be applied to players in general.

    If what happened here is the same as what happened with the other case a few months back, and it appears that it is, then the casino will stand by it's decision and rightly so.

    Colly has a fantastic siggy:

    "Education is what you get by reading the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't"

    If you're going to try and milk a casino promotion - and there's nothing wrong with that in general - at least spend some time READING the terms and understanding what your limitations are. It is irresponsible to expect someone else to solve the problems you create for yourself by not doing so.

    Both cases involved someone trying to place big initial bets and then reducing to grind the WR. Everyone with half a brain knows that is going to attract attention at the very least, and is just plain against the rules in most cases (like this one)

    I have sympathy for regular players who get stiffed for no reason. I have no sympathy for those who make a living chasing bonuses and should know better.
     
  30. Jul 1, 2011
  31. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    And I would say you are the biggest joke ever to hit a message board.

    In BJ only initial bet counts. Has always been and will always be even if you probably would want it changed so more winnings would get confiscated so you would get some satisfaction.
    Talk about having a miserable life.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Jul 1, 2011
  33. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Thankyou for that wonderful contribution.

    I expected nothing less from you.
     
  34. Jul 1, 2011
  35. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Let's keep it civil guys. There's a weekend coming up and I don't want to put out any fires. Thanks!
     
  36. Jul 1, 2011
  37. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    Where in the TERMS is it listed that winnings can be confiscated ? It is only stated they will review the use of bonuses for real money play if they spot irregular playing patterns. That means they may stop offering bonuses and even close the account in question but they must pay up.
     
  38. Jul 1, 2011
  39. Temperance Fox

    Temperance Fox Experienced Member PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    many
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Trying to give a little help....I know that this Carnival is part of the same group of Swiss, King and others.Reading into other forums I've seen that they're not very honest even if you respect their rules, they found ever something , if you have to cash out.

    So , if one play there, have to pay double attention.Maybe this time they're right, unfortunately, but I'm not so sure.I think this is a quite borderline situation.

    Hope the best for you, crossing my fingers.
     

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