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C2P - you cant get your money back !

Discussion in 'Other Complaints' started by poser, Aug 31, 2007.

    Aug 31, 2007
  1. poser

    poser Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Hamburg
    C2P - You cant get your money back there:

    After C2P removed their payout option some month ago, it was still possible to request a payout via email, if you had more than 1500 Euro there.
    It was possible to wire money directly to the account, to fill it up to 1500 and then to pay out.

    Now, they removed this last option (to fill up).

    So,as most Casinos and Pokersites have the clause, to only put back the money there, from where it came (in respect of winnings), it is practically NO LONGER possible to GET BACK the MONEY that you once deposited via C2P.

    This is a somewhat BAD situation. What you think about it ?

    If you ask C2P support, they say you can get the money via their merchants. If you ask the merchants, they say the have a contract with C2P to always fund back the original deposit to C2P first.

    THIS IS B U L L S H I T, isn't it ?

    THX


    poser
     
  2. Sep 5, 2007
  3. poser

    poser Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Hamburg
    Solved !

    One day after I wrote here and to two casino were I played telling the whole story AND writing to C2C telling them I discuss this in CM and with the casinos, they let me cash out my money without even need to fill up to 1500.

    :)
     
  4. Sep 11, 2007
  5. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Maybe they DONT want this discussed. What about all the other players that are getting this problem. I notice the OP has "Hamburg", this is surely not the USA:confused: I thought the problem was down to Click2Pay not being able to send money to the USA because of the UIGEA.

    Click2Pay looks positively DANGEROUS now, and not just for USA players. I had my own troubles with them a while ago, and had to struggle to get redress. They even messed me around when I wanted to remove my card as a funding method, so I told them not to bother as it would eventually expire & I would not be using it again.

    Palace group once couldn't understand why I was so negative with Click2Pay a while back (it was their preferred processor), well, now we ALL know:D
     
  6. Oct 5, 2007
  7. BigK

    BigK Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Landscaper
    Location:
    UK
    Further on from the original point (which I only wish I had read before this happened to me).

    I recently made a wire transfer of 4,500 to Click2Pays bank in London. I got the form off thier site and took it to my bank to initiate the wire transfer. I sent them an e-mail informing them what I had done, as per the instructions on the transfer form.

    After a week the money never showed in my Click2Pay account. I contacted them and asked where the money was. They asked for the account details and where I got them from. I told them I had downloaded them off their website.

    They then came back to me and said that account was no longer used and the account was in fact closed. They said the funds would have been rejected. I spoke to my bank and the funds were definitely accepted :eek:.

    After exchanging a couple of e-mails they then stopped replying to my e-mails and I have tried calling them, but the phone line is now dead. There last e-mail said the money will be returned "please wait patiently". 3 weeks have now elapsed. I realise this looks very, very bad.

    According to my bank the money would have returned straight away if the account had been closed.

    I am at present trying to deal with Click2Pays bank in England, Dresdner Bank London to try and ascertain if the bank account is open. It is difficulot though becasue I am not a client wiht them and they are very cautious as to what they tell me.

    Anyone thinking of depositing any sum of money, particularly through this method, I would be careful. In addition, anyone with any advice on how I can get my money back would be very well recieved.:thumbsup:

    Cheers
     
  8. Oct 10, 2007
  9. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Dangerous:eek:

    I think that may have been an understatement!!

    They are now screwing UK players, UIGEA just won't wash as an excuse any longer!

    Click2Pay pretend to be a German company, but they aint, they are based in CYPRUS! If they were German, they would never get away with this. The only German about them is the bank they use.

    As you are from the UK though, you should complain to the FSA about the misappropriation of your bank wire to an account you have been told by the owner has been "closed". Dresdner bank has to obey EU rules, and they must know who is behind this account, and would be responsible if they had allowed their banking system to be used for any kind of fraud.
    Try to get it in writing from Click2Pay about their claim the account is closed.
    The fact that Click2Pay has a "dead" phone line now is a clear danger signal, and casinos that continue to promote Click2Pay should look into this as they will most certainly suffer from the fallout now that non-US players are suffering problems Click2Pay previously swore were down to the special circumstances surrounding the UIGEA and the difficulty of moving funds to and from US members.


    From my archives,

    Questions about CLICK2PAY? Our customer service will help you.
    Email: This email is not visible to you.
    US Tollfree: 1-888-254-2729
    International: +49 30 300 110 100

    CLICK2PAY
    The way to pay.

    The US number is long dead, but the international one may be the "real" one if the current one has gone "dead".

    The POSTAL address is in Cyprus, and as the registered office means the company itself is based there. I have been told they are in the "Greek bit", and thus covered under EU rules (I believed them then, but am not so sure now, and indeed they may have moved to escape regulatory scrutiny just as RTG did). If they are not, it would make them a Turkish based company, and unregulated under the EU.

    EDIT:-

    Just checked their site, and they have most certainly moved!!

    Any further questions? Please feel free to contact us.

    PHONE +49 180 5 113090 (Charges may apply)
    EMAIL This email is not visible to you.

    This is a completely different phone number, although seems to be in the same country as code +49, which is Germany. HOWEVER, the following 180 looks VERY much like a "translated" number, similar to the "08" codes used here in the UK, and serves to hide the true location of the company's helpdesk (which usually turns out to be Mumbai), and also makes it easier to make it "dead" to callers without themselves being uncontactable on their "real" number. (perhaps a German member could clarify)

    I would suggest at least trying +49 30 300 110 100 to see if they have left this one open, it might lead to their German office at least - they must have one in order to deal with their bank.
     
  10. Oct 10, 2007
  11. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    Where do you get the idea that they are based in Cyprus? Their head office is still in Germany,
    CLICK2PAY GmbH
    Bretonischer Ring 4
    D-85630 Grasbrunn ,
    their phone numbers are German phone numbers, they have a German VAT registration number, your contract with C2P is governed by German law.
     
  12. Oct 10, 2007
  13. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    I'm sorry for hijacking this thread a little but I have some beef with Click2Pay as well.

    I make transactions of US$100 and they charge me US$103.09. I make another transaction of $150 and get charged US$154.64. Where in the world do they come up with all those figures? As far as I am concerned, there should be no charges which is applied on my card or to me or at least that's what they said when I 1st signed up with them.

    What the hell is all this about? Click2Pay is cheating their clients?
     
  14. Oct 10, 2007
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This was EXACTLY what happened to me, and started all of a sudden without warning. I had been surcharged over 50 before I noticed what they were up to. They claimed they were doing nothing wrong - but I knew different, as before I had been charged exactly what my deposits were.
    I pointed out that they ONLY allowed for their use as a "pass through" for credit card transactions, and that there would be no charge. They then claimed I could pre-fund by bank wire, but it was not on the site and they could give me the details I would need.


    As to being in Germany, they may be INCORPORATED there as a company, but they have a Cyprus snail mail address. When challenged about regulation, I was assured they were in the "greek bit", and thus covered by EU rules - surely they would have assured me they were really in Germany and the address was a slip of the pen - they meant to type " Dresden, Germany" but it came out as "Nicosia, Cyprus":rolleyes:

    I find it hard to believe they have been misbehaving as long as they have, certainly since my troubles in 2005, and the German regulator has done nothing to force them to mend their ways.

    If they haven't moved, then why have they changed to a completely different phone number, and why is it "dead" to some callers - sounds like a company wanting to hide from complaining customers.


    I have just reviewed their site, and they have removed ALL REFERENCE to the physical location of their offices, whereas before they had a Cyprus address for all postal correspondence. Now, the ONLY method of written communication offered is E-mail, and for speech, a phone number that one poster has reported as being "dead".
    It is hard to get them to reply to E-mails.

    Their terms & conditions have STILL not been updated since 2005, and reference is still made to US players, and the sole availability of Credit cards as a funding method for the UK.

    They have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the points I raised to them in my "feedback" when I told them to "take a long walk off a short pier" after messing me around, indeed, things seem to have got worse - at least you could write a letter of complaint (snail mail style) back in 2005.


    If they are above board, why do they not make available their registered company HQ address and company number, this is the law here in the UK, and probably in the rest of the EU.

    The UK FSA have no entry for "click2pay", nor any other item on general site search. Neteller, however, has an entry, and is authorised.
     
  16. Oct 10, 2007
  17. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    Instead of dealing with CS, write to the managing director at the head office, who will be delighted to hear from you. If the worst comes to worst, you can sue them at Landgericht Mnchen I.
     
  18. Oct 11, 2007
  19. aodat2

    aodat2 Senior Member PABnononaccred PABnoaccred2 PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    I have a job
    Location:
    Malaysia
    GrandMaster:
    I tried emailing them but no replies were given. Totally no reply at all to my email. So, writing to their MD doesn't really help coz they don't even care. If you're talking about sueing someone over 50quids and my $70, there's totally not much use actually. it all totals up to $150 (average) and you're asking us to sue them for that amount? I'd rather just tell my bank about it and let them worry about it with C2P.

    Vinyl:
    Can you tell me what was your resolution on the problem? What happened in the end? Did they give you back the money or something or did it just disappear into the sunset?


    Any other people getting charged like that and having problems with C2P, please do either create a new thread or post here. I'd sure like to get everyone else's view on this.

    Thanks!
     
  20. Oct 11, 2007
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Persistence paid off in the end, I got the charges back. They then became awkward about deregistering my credit card, so I just let it expire.
    I have never used the account since, as I am seeing more and more negative posts about them.
    The fact they refuse to respond to E-mails is not good, however, writing to the MD at the address given by Grandmaster (include copies of E-mails that were unanswered) may get some action. It is possible their CS department is the one with the Cyprus address (now removed from the website). I don't know how mere customers are supposed to find their HQ, they do not give the address out. It may therefore shock them that an aggrieved customer has found HQ and is writing to it, and they may take the missing funds seriously.
    They have already broken laws by making available an invitation to deposit to a closed account through negligently having the wrong instructions on the website, they could be sued on this basis for the return of the missing 4500 + costs, and will most likely sort it out straight away. They may be less keen to deal with the smaller sums, as they know there is little risk of someone travelling to Germany and employing a lawyer for a few dollars.

    I would like to know why they are being allowed to get away with such shoddy service while dealing with client funds, they should have their licence threatened with removal by the German regulators unless they can improve their service levels. They are behaving more like a rogue casino than an eWallet.
     
  22. Oct 11, 2007
  23. bernynhel

    bernynhel Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Loafer
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Don't they have pre-paid Visa debit cards in the EU? If so, I don't see why anyone would use anything else after witnessing the problems Neteller were capable of having and, apparently, now C2P (read: "and their ilk"). OK, Debit card deposits eliminates "instant payouts" and reduces the cash in options to bank wires and checks but hey, since we only play at "accredited" casinos nowadays anyway ;), at least we know we'll get paid, eventually, :rolleyes: right? My Visa debit card cost $9.95, $2 to load up to $5,000 and $1 per transaction and no monthly fees or overdraft charges. I dedicate mine for online commerce and gaming and have never been declined and, since it isn't tied to any bank account or credit line - totally ID-theft-proof. I never trusted C2P. I remember how sketchy they seemed over two years ago - WAY too many idiosyncrasies that were only made known once I had support on the phone and not in the terms. I thought them scary THEN! Couldn't imagine still doing business with them now from the US in light of the current sitch. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2007
  24. Oct 11, 2007
  25. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    It is on the website under You must register/login in order to see the link..
     
  26. Oct 11, 2007
  27. breakstone

    breakstone Experienced Member PABnonaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    Australia
    Click to pay is definately a rogue site

    I had a debit card with them to withdraw funds. It took 7 days to try and get the money. One of their staff told me they didn't have enough money to load the cards. I complained to the german financial transactions authority and click to pay suspended my account. The german authorities investigated and I did get the money eventually.
    Click to pay closed my account because I had complained. Dont even bother to use them and dont deposit there. They are frauds and I think just about to go under.
     
  28. Oct 11, 2007
  29. BigK

    BigK Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Landscaper
    Location:
    UK
    Update:

    Thanks for your advice folks.

    I managed to speak to Click2Pay last week. I do not understand how the week before when I tried it, it went through to a voice message from a company who "hosted the phone service" who were based in London and this week I reach Click2Pay.

    It was no mis dial either. I tried to ring them 2 weeks ago at least a dozen times over 24 hours and each and every time I got the same message (and no I wasn't using any redial service;))

    The guy I spoke to assured me they were looking into it. I provided screen shots of the form and copies of the filled in form I used at the bank. I also contacted the bank and got a copy of the transaction ID.

    I received an e-mail today saying that C2P were looking into it. I replied saying I wanted the funds back by Monday or I would have to initiate legal action.

    Their CS simply hasn't done enough. I have contacted my solicitors and they are preparing the initial letter to send to C2P in Germany. I really can't believe it has come to this, but I guess some of the blame has to be apportioned to me for not doing more research on them.

    I'll keep updates coming as to progress.
    K
     
  30. Oct 12, 2007
  31. BigK

    BigK Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Landscaper
    Location:
    UK
    I think this about sums up the situation with Click2Pay.

    This is the response I have been sent:



    Dear Mr XXXX,

    Thank you for contacting the CLICK2PAY Service Team.

    Unfortunately, as previously stated, the bank account to which your funds have been sent has been closed.

    We thank you for sending as much information as possible to help us locate your funds, but, I have been informed by the cash management team it is not possible to initiate a trace / track from CLICK2PAY. It has been advised, your bank is the only party that can initiate a trace / track on the funds, therefore, our only suggestion is to ask your bank to complete the fore mentioned action.

    I have been assured, your funds will 'bounce back' to your account, unfortunately, and we can not give an approximation of when this will occur.

    We apologise for this unforced delay in relocating your funds, if and when we have any update, please rest assured we will inform as soon as possible.

    Should you have further questions about the information given above, please reply directly to this email, including our original text and ticket number. This will help us to deal with your inquiry much faster.

    Please note: CLICK2PAY will never ask you via e-mail to disclose your login details on the Internet or to disclose or confirm your login details via telephone or fax.

    Thank you for using CLICK2PAY.

    Kind regards

    P.Xxxxxx
    CLICK2PAY Service Team



    Anyone who knows the banking system would probably be aware that any funds sent to a closed bank account would be returned within 48 hours. This situation happened on the 17th September 07. Something tells me Click2Pay are not trying to help me locate this money.

    Having done as they asked (prior to recieving this e-mail response) my bank can't trace the funds as they already know where they were sent. Click2Pays bank as detailed on the form on their site.

    Suffice to say if I was reading this, I certainly wouldn't deposit via Click2Pay.

    I have contacted my solicitors and am taking them to court over this money, it will be difficult with them being in Germany, but I am outraged and it is the principle of their response :mad: that will ensure I pursue this matter.

    Any advice anyone can give will be very much appreciated.

    BigK
     
  32. Oct 15, 2007
  33. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Certainly is, but when I tried to navigate there from the main site I found it impossible. It may be there, but it seems not to be linked to from either the main customer or merchant pages.

    The phone numbers are completely different from the HQ (different city codes), so there CS must be elsewhere (and I am sure that is where the old Cyprus address comes in).
     
  34. Oct 15, 2007
  35. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Click2Pay would be liable as it was them that supplied the information, warranting that it was the correct place to send the money.

    It would be easier to take your BANK to the FSA though, since they are also not doing enough as this looks like a possible fraud has taken place with the receiving account, and delay only serves to allow the funds to be taken from that account. If the receiving bank is also in the UK, or even the EU, your complaint to the FSA should include details.
    You could also consider making a complaint for negligence to the German authorities, seems it will be the second one in a short space of time. Click2Pay will be forced to rectify the situation so they can close your account.
    Try to get their "excuses" in writing, this makes it far easier to prove your case during both the complaint and legal procedures.

    Click2Pay might be breaking UK law by taking deposits (as opposed to acting as a secure processor for card transactions through to merchants). Unlike Neteller, they are NOT registered with the FSA even under the lightly regulated E-money issuance rules.
     
  36. Oct 15, 2007
  37. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    Go to the main page, select English, click on "Imprint" in the bottom right-hand corner of the main page.

    If they are registered with German (or any other EU) financial regulatory authority, they can operate in the UK.
     
  38. Oct 25, 2007
  39. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    As I said, hard to find. How the hell would I know that "Imprint" contains their HQ address unless someone told me first.

    I am also puzzled by that bit about a LONDON company hosting their phone service. Surely if this was the case there would be a LONDON number to call for us, and an equivalent one for each nation that directed to the London company.
    If this London lot are just a call centre, not related to Click2Pay,then they will generally offer only scripted CS, and will be hopeless in more complex cases such as this.

    In the case of a closed account, it is not necessarily the case that the money will bounce back. I once changed my bank account from one branch of Lloyds to another, and my salary went to the old one. I was able to retrieve it into my new account myself, it didn't have to bounce back to my firm with me having to get them to repay it to my new account. I would suspect the same has happened in this case, with the closed account having a note pointing to the new one, and the money being forwarded. This could be traced by first complaining to your bank that the funds should have been retrieved because the account it was sent to is closed. If your bank does not manage to get anything done, approach the Financial Ombudsman, who can wring out what happened from the secretive lot at the receiving bank.
    If the money is found in Click2Pay's coffers, complain then to the German authorities, as they persistently lied to you about having received the funds.
     

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