Bwin doesn't want to send me my money !

benj227

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Location
Switzerland
Hi all,

I made ​​a mistake several years ago, as I was a teenagers, 16-17 years old, in quests for new experiences I subscribe to bwin with a false date of birth.
I put 35 euros, I lost, the case is closed.

However, 1 month ago I decided to return to bwin and I didn't know I had the wrong date or birth on the site. I am legally over age now...

I put 400 euros, lost them. Another 400, lost. I put 900, I go down to 750 and I said OK, I'll stop and I withdraw it all !

I send my ID, which is accepted by the mail received the next day, and withdraw the whole amount.

ACCOUNT BLOCKED! They refuse to return my money because I made ​​the mistake many years ago to enroll being a minor.

They sent me 35 euros, my first deposit, but the rest is "lost". I contacted them by email, phone, nothing happens, they won't change anything.

It's not as if I won any money ... I lost a lot, want to transfer part of the amount deposited, it's REFUSED ......

I got my money stolen. And if I had put 10,000 euros? I would have lost everything !!

What do you think? Yes I know I made a mistake as I was a teenager, but Bwin that steals my account deposit??? I don't get it......

I just don't know what to do anymore ....... It's like talking to a wall when I phone them...
 

dionysus

Good(w)ill Ambassador
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Location
the land of snow and maple syrup
Well, one, as you admitted, you were wrong and casinos frown on, well, what's considered fraud. You can't hardly be surprised.
If this was so long ago, why haven't you updated details anyway?
Regardless, you have current ID I assume; open new accounts elsewhere at solid casinos and use your correct details
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
I agree with dionysus. You can not be surprised by this as you actually have tried to defraud them the in the past with your account.

You should just forget about this case. Move on and find a new place to play/bet. Bwin is not the best bookie anyway.
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
I'm a nice girl and can't do anything but feel a little sorry for him anyway.
What I don't understand is why they chosed to only pay back the first deposit of €35? They could as well have chosen the last of €900:eek2:
It feels a little cheap from my point of view, especially if he actually had not lost all of it.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
I'm a nice girl and can't do anything but feel a little sorry for him anyway.
What I don't understand is why they chosed to only pay back the first deposit of €35? They could as well have chosen the last of €900:eek2:
It feels a little cheap from my point of view, especially if he actually had not lost all of it.

They probably gave him back €35 because that is what he deposited while being underage.
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
They probably gave him back €35 because that is what he deposited while being underage.

I can understand that, but I still feels that what he hadn't lost yet, those €750, should also be returned.
But that's me, and I would probably be a bad businesswoman;)
 

dreamguardian1

Senior Member
PABnonaccred
MM
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Location
San Francisco, CA
I would tend to agree that they should return the money to his account, once he provides correct information that he is now of legal age. While most people/countries frown upon fraud and giving false information, i am impressed that you owned up to your error. Takes a real man or woman to own up to something and that says a lot.
 

benj227

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Location
Switzerland
Yes indeed they gave back the 35 because I was underage at that time. I didn't even remember putting 35 Euros.

At one stage (once I had all the money on Bwin) I thought about the fact I had a false date of birth on the site, tried to change it in my profile settings but obviously couldn't... I didn't think it was such a big issue since I deposited more money on the account after noticing.

I did think about the fact that when I send in my ID for a check, they MIGHT see the false date of birth but I honestly didn't think they would make a huge deal out of it. Or if they did, they'd at least let me withdraw my deposit...


I'm thinking about solutions because 750 isn't an amount anyone would be comfortable loosing that way (without gambling it or anything). I just feel I've been robbed.

No point harassing them really as I keep getting the same answers...
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
.


As previously mentioned. I think you should forget about this case and move on. But you have the opportunity to send in a complaint to the Gibraltar Gambling Commissioner where I believe they are licensed. You can read more about it here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Let me also just mention that Bwin is on Casinomeister's no-can-do list (reason: refuses to discuss player issues).
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
CAG
MM
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Location
Vancouver
I personally am shocked that you find this a suprise, the fact that you outright lied on your details page, put the casino in a bad position had they been caught, not to sound harsh but I fail to see any sympathy here whatsoever.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Deliberately providing a false date of birth to allow yourself to create an account to circumvent the casino terms and the Law is considered FRAUD.

You should be grateful they returned your deposit.

You lied, and now you're paying the price. I'm amazed at those who think that is OK (well not really actually).....I'll bet if the CASINO lied then it would be completely unacceptable :rolleyes:.

My advice to the OP....accept you lied and deceived, and the resulting consequences.
 

mattsgame

Meister Member
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Location
Out Of Town
I made ​​a mistake several years ago, as I was a teenagers, 16-17 years old, in quests for new experiences I subscribe to bwin with a false date of birth.
I put 35 euros, I lost, the case is closed.

However, 1 month ago I decided to return to bwin and I didn't know I had the wrong date or birth on the site. I am legally over age now

You damn well contradict yourself in your first 2 sentences and you want us CM folk to believe you?


Can't believe people are saying to return the rest of his funds, the OP has committed fraud by deliberately giving them a wrong date of birth.

Next time your wondering why a casino wants so many I.D docs, you can thank this person.

To the OP, if you want to play at any reputable casino make sure you give them the correct details, and there will be no problems or hassles.
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
What I'm reading here is quite unbelievable.

Confiscating money is illegal pretty much everywhere in the developed world. Do you believe that a store can confiscate the $750 in your wallet because you were caught lying about your age while trying to buy alcohol?

If OP has committed fraud and the casino feels like they should be compensated for it, then they should turn this case to a court of law a seek compensation. No private business can confiscate your money, the hell is wrong with people here? This is organized crime behaviour, what's next? Should they send goons to break his legs?

OP, you should talk to a lawyer. I'd raise hell if a casino would confiscate my money for any reason. It's one thing to not pay your winnings (and I'd support them in this case), but robbing (yes, that's the word) the money that you haven't even play is a whole other level.

If the same situation had happened in a real land based casino, you'd get a slap on the wrist and then you'd be invited to come inside (now that you're of legal age) and they'd be more than happy to take your money legally.

Keep the Al Capone and the Mafiosi stuff in the movies, please.
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
Actually, we don't know that they stole HIS money; he may well have played equivalent to his deposit. But yes, stores and banks DO seize CCs and bank cards and freeze accounts in cases of fraud.

Are you saying that online casinos are at the same level of regulation than CC companies and banks? Even if they were (lol), do you think that if you lied about your age when you opened your bank account, they would lock your account and keep the money for themselves?
 

benj227

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Location
Switzerland
I can confirm I did not play through the 900 but lost 150 before decidint to withdraw.

I knew I was "illegal" playing while I was a teen, but I lost and thought the case was closes.

When I came back to the account I hat 0.00 on my balance and never would have thought it could be a problem.

ONE MORE THING : I got checked my ID BEFORE asking for withdrawal, and they told me in the mail next day that it was accepted and everything was OK. In theory I could have deposited an extra 1000 without knowing...
So they actually let me continue and only blocked the account once I ASKED for my monney.

I still don't think its fair.
 

mattsgame

Meister Member
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Location
Out Of Town
What I'm reading here is quite unbelievable.

Confiscating money is illegal pretty much everywhere in the developed world. Do you believe that a store can confiscate the $750 in your wallet because you were caught lying about your age while trying to buy alcohol?

If OP has committed fraud and the casino feels like they should be compensated for it, then they should turn this case to a court of law a seek compensation. No private business can confiscate your money, the hell is wrong with people here? This is organized crime behaviour, what's next? Should they send goons to break his legs?

OP, you should talk to a lawyer. I'd raise hell if a casino would confiscate my money for any reason. It's one thing to not pay your winnings (and I'd support them in this case), but robbing (yes, that's the word) the money that you haven't even play is a whole other level.

If the same situation had happened in a real land based casino, you'd get a slap on the wrist and then you'd be invited to come inside (now that you're of legal age) and they'd be more than happy to take your money legally.

Keep the Al Capone and the Mafiosi stuff in the movies, please.

You cannot be serious, if this was a land based casino (lets say it wasn't to do with lying about ones age, but even if it was) you think said casino would be giving you back a cent? hell no and they would not be obliged to and you would be out the door so fast. In fact the underage gamblers or fraudulent players face fines in most jurisdictions and so does the casino for allowing it to happen.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Location
Bexhill on sea, England
You cannot be serious, if this was a land based casino (lets say it wasn't to do with lying about ones age, but even if it was) you think said casino would be giving you back a cent? hell no and they would not be obliged to and you would be out the door so fast. In fact the underage gamblers or fraudulent players face fines in most jurisdictions and so does the casino for allowing it to happen.
I think you're missing Balthazar's point:
If a 17-year old walked into a Vegas Casino with $1,000 in his pocket and gambled away $250 of it before he got spotted by security and thrown out of the casino, do you think it would be fair for the casino to take the other $750 from his pocket and keep it?
Yeah, OK the $250 is lost and the player's own fault for breaking the rules - but I don't see how any casino can justify keeping the rest of the PLAYERS money.

Yes he broke the rules, but I still don't see it's fair for the casino to keep all his un-wagered cash. Two wrongs don't make a right.

KK
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Hold on.....he said he withdrew when he LOST $150.....not WAGERED. If he wagered more than $150, which you would assume he did unless he lost every single bet, then according to the "its his money if he didn't wager it" argument, he would be entitled to far less than $750.

Besides, who deposits $900 and withdraws $750? Sounds dodgy to me for a start.
 

benj227

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Location
Switzerland
Nifty29... I already lost 400, then an other 400 before depositing the 900.

I wanted to withdraw because I simply decided to take a break with sports betting.

Once again, Bwin verified my ID, said it's OK (as I'm over the legal age now) and ONLY when they see I wan't to withdraw the whole money balance they find excuses to block the account.

Yes, they wouldn't do it beforehand since I could have lost more and deposited money again......
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Given that the account was initially busted for being that of a minor, how come it was still OPEN:confused:

Since when do casinos bust a player for fraud, but then leave the account open for them to enter and play again another time? It looks more like the casino did NOT consider this case fraud at all, but a simple matter of a 17 year old jumping the gun. They decide instead to leave the account intact for when he reaches the correct age, when he would be welcome back. This would be why the account was open, and he was allowed to deposit.

Using the original account is the better approach in terms of the "one account per player" rule, yet the "correct" approach here would seem to have been to sign up afresh as an over 18, and make a clean start.

Given that the latter play was legally OK, to go to the draconian length of seizing deposits seems way over the top. Even true frauds sometimes get their deposits back, even with not a shred of mitigating circumstance in their favour.

Freezing an account is not the same as seizing the contents, which is what Bwin has done in this case. To seize the content, a private business has to sue for damages, and ask to be awarded costs and compensation. If they win, they still have to return funds over the amount the court granted them.

Bwin have the advantage here because they have the money, but by seizing deposits that were not lost to the house, they are on shaky legal ground. The reason many casinos return deposits in disputes is to avoid standing on this shaky legal ground for longer than is necessary.

Since this case is about the return of money deposited that remains in the account, and not the payment of winnings, the regulator may not be the most effective way to pursue this. It may be possible to pursue this under the laws of the players' own country. Gibraltar do not seem to recognise the norms of consumer protection law (they are not the only one either), so tend to allow unfair contract terms to stand. Most countries have extra protection in law for consumers in disputes with businesses. Gibraltar for example, have allowed the vague "spirit of the bonus" rules to be use for the arbitrary confiscation of winnings from players who otherwise broke no bonus rules, nor the general terms, but just played too cleverly for the casino's liking. It's no different to the player demanding their money back because the software seemed to use a biased deck in a single session, which happens quite a bit in Microgaming Blackjack, saying "I didn't like how the dealer kept getting 21s off 5 and 6 ups, so I want my money back".
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
by seizing deposits that were not lost to the house, they are on shaky legal ground. The reason many casinos return deposits in disputes is to avoid standing on this shaky legal ground for longer than is necessary.

Exactly. I don't understand why a casino would take such a risk, they are exposing themselves to a lot of bad stuff (including, but not limited to, legit chargebacks). In a case of dispute, most casinos return the deposit (or what's left of it), lock the account and tell the player to never come back. They don't do that stuff because they are good people and that's the moral thing to do, they do it because that's what a lawyer would tell them to do.
 

naththo

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Location
Adelaide, South Australia.
Man! Thats not very good! You shouldn't have defraud them at all as it is seriously against the law and is a very serious crime. You could've end up in prison or a huge fined if the federal agency decides to. I hope they are not coming after you at all. If they did you are in a lot deep trouble. If you were in USA the jail sentence is going to be a very long time to be spent behind bar. Just don't do it again and move on to somewhere other casino with true identify, no more fraud. Most of website have fraud protection like paypal, casino, etc they will be coming after you if you commit the crime of fraud.

By the way casino will not allow you to change detail after you first enter when you join for first time. It is for fraud protection. They are testing everyone to make sure they are not doing anything so stupid like trying to defraud them. At later time when id is asked, casino will compare against the detail being input first time. If the fraud is detected then casino will escalate the action to much more serious consequence you will be getting if you commit a fraud. Changing address is okay as long as match your id, but date of birth and name will not be able to change since it is put in first time as they want to test against you. Its same as paypal etc other website like that. Clearly BWIN returned your original deposit when you were under 18 thats the right thing that BWIN done. But they will NOT return your original deposit after you turn 18 since you lost but they have confiscated your winning money as well. Overall you were defrauding them right from very beginning and BWIN didn't like it so they took a very serious action against you and closed your account. They may or may not have reported it to Federal agency I don't know. I hope you understand very clear that what I said is very serious to me and I hope you will not commit a fraud or a serious crime ever again.
 
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