Brexit - whats the difference.....

mack341

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That's very true Chop re Private eye, and to be fair I haven't read it for years, next time I'm in smiths I'll have a sneaky browse!

And I would say prior to 2004/5 the membership of the EU was more manageable, then the free movement for central/east europe began, and inevitably more problems occurred, which you'd have to be blind not to notice.

If the EU could respect nation state sovereignty more [which was a democracy here :oops: looking less that way currently] and maybe had some sort of quota system for foreign workforce/benefits, cost us less than £3 billion annually, and was about trade, consumer rights and standards, pollution etc.. than maybe it would have been far more popular.

Protect Europe, the culture, traditions and standards -yes.
 

ChopleyIOM

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Rumours abound this morning that a deal is on the cards, not much sign however that the EU have softened in any significant fashion, but clear indications that the UK government has realised it's well and truly boxed itself in with refusing to extend the transition period, and is looking at its own reasonable worst case scenario predictions and grasping the fact that blaming it on the EU simply won't wash when thousands of trucks are piled up at Dover and supermarket shelves are starting to look bare. (And lest we forget that truck holding parks are being built in Kent so large that they will be visible from space with the naked eye.)

The government's own focus groups are telling them that people are plenty smart enough to understand that Covid and Brexit are two separate things, and that they absolutely will cop the blame (as they should!) for a disastrous No Deal Brexit, which will look like an act of pure recklessness and folly as the country is still reeling from Covid, and potentially in the middle of a ruinous second wave.

Obviously the EU want a deal as well, but it's the UK that needs one. Needless to say, that does not put us in a strong negotiating position.

The EU will probably throw Johnson a bone or two that he can wave in front of the British public and declare NEGOTIATING SUCCESS (as he did when he threw Northern Ireland under the bus with his Withdrawal Agreement), but just like the WA, the small print will make it clear that the EU will be getting what it wants.

This is what happens when one medium sized economy decides to detach itself from an economic juggernaut such as the EU without any fucking plan of what to do next.

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mack341

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Wish there was a 'hmm' emoji for thinking about a post; I'll have to catch up with the brexit stuff - been looking into covid a lot. [too much :(]

I did hear something yesterday, that a deal may be on the cards now as the EU were making some concessions;
I suspect boris will misrepresent and gloss over any sovereignty concessions he makes though.

I'm sick and tired of him already, he will be ousted and remembered as a charlatan, though it'll probably take 10 years for the conservative voting public to get to that point.
 

mack341

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There is a draft legal text weighing in around 650 pages :eek: with just
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remaining to be agreed: fishing rights for European boats in UK waters, and the state aid rules imposed by Britain’s Government after the end of the transition period.

The key now is for the UK to convince the EU that it can be trusted not to undercut the continent on state aid, by pouring cash into British industry which would otherwise be unviable; a compromise on fishing would almost certainly follow.

Even though things look bleak now, just like with the withdrawal agreement last year a deal would ensure all the remaining issues – including the Internal Market Bill – can simply be shelved with no loss of face for either party.
 

dunover

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Are we still on the 'Oven-ready' issue of Private Eye from which that excerpt was taken? Because if so, I'm still awaiting my delivery.

I guess the seller was using Economy Class postage, the sneaky git.

God I hate ebay
The latest one is the first that arrived yesterday after my recent subscription for a year. 2 photos of Boris on the cover waving, 'first wave' and 'second wave' hello and goodbye kinda thing.
 

ChopleyIOM

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I suspect boris will misrepresent and gloss over any sovereignty concessions he makes though.

I'm sick and tired of him already, he will be ousted and remembered as a charlatan, though it'll probably take 10 years for the conservative voting public to get to that point.
The only thing that surprises me about Johnson is that anyone is even remotely surprised he's turned out to be as awful as he has.

The man is a notorious liar, cheat, charlatan, fraud and shyster, and a lazy one at that, anyone who voted for him got exactly what they voted for.

It's like buying a box of washing powder from the supermarket, getting it home, opening it up and exclaiming, 'Fucking hell, this box is full of washing powder!'
 

ChopleyIOM

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A typically incisive article from Jonathan Lis. Anyone who still even thinks of uttering the words 'I knew what I was voting for' gets a perfect ten out of ten for self-delusion.

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And so, as night follows day, the government seeks to blame Brussels. This week Environment Secretary George Eustice declared that disruption could in fact emerge from a “failure of the EU to plan.” That was of course nonsense. Never mind that everything stems from the UK’s political decisions to leave the single market and customs union, not to tell people what that entailed, and then refuse any opportunity to extend the negotiating period. France was building new border posts and the Netherlands was recruiting new customs officers while the UK was still insisting nothing would change. The government has only one thing it can blame the EU for, and that is treating Britain in precisely the way it demanded: as a third country. The real complaint is that Brussels took us at our word.

It is, in any case, pointless to try and blame the EU, either practically or politically. It’s not just that the government alone is now answerable to the British people. We were told the EU could never hurt us, that its interests didn’t count, and that its trade barriers were irrelevant. Those lies are now being ruthlessly exposed.

Perhaps it is the cynicism which wounds the most. All the promises of “exact same benefits,” “the easiest deal in human history” and Britain “holding all the cards” have been swept away without a single acknowledgement those words were ever uttered. Under the new approved narrative, we knew we were voting for economic chaos and a broken global reputation. That was the price of freedom, and if you think you were told otherwise, you must be mistaken.
 

ChopleyIOM

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A substantial majority of people in the UK now think that leaving the EU was the wrong decision.

The numbers have been trending in this direction for a while, but this is the biggest gap yet for 'Wrong' above 'Right'.

Unfortunately it's all too fucking late now, the liars and the cheats won.

Now that their lies and cheats have been revealed, it becomes obvious they'd never have won without the lying and the cheating.

And lest we forget, the transition period hasn't even finished yet......

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ChopleyIOM

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The UK asks the EU to accept car parts made in other third countries (such as Japan and Turkey) to count as 'UK produced' for the purposes of a trade deal. EU says no, because, y'know, Japan and Turkey are not the UK.

The risk the EU sees here is that UK simply becomes a low-cost production hub right on its doorstep, bringing in parts from all over the world on the cheap, assembling the cars here, and then hosing them into EU markets under the auspices of a 'UK/EU' trade deal.

As such the EU has rejected what it calls 'third-country cumulation' and the UK has conceded it can't insist upon it. (Taking Back Control!)

This is part of all the boring stuff that so many people paid little or no attention to, or simply dismissed as Project Fear, now coming into effect. (It's interesting how Project Fear has now disappeared completely from the Leavers' lexicon isn't it? Because Project Truth or Project Reality aren't quite as catchy.)

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UK's request to the EU, and before anyone says 'MEAN EU REFUSING TO TALK TO US ABOUT IT' please understand this is literally the exact position that the UK decided to put itself into to.

So we're basically saying, 'Yes we know we've jumped into this lake but we've discovered that it's wet and we don't like it, so can you make it dry instead please.'

This is toddler-level politics from the UK.

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ChopleyIOM

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This is starting to feel a bit one-sided, so I'd really appreciate some balance from folks who can post anything resembling a 'good news' Brexit story, there must be some, because we were all told Brexit would be such a positive experience. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.

Anyway, here are pharmaceutical and aerospace industry heads telling a UK Commons Select Committee that everything about Brexit is bad news,

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Paul Everitt, chief executive of the ADS Group, the aerospace trade organisation, said: “Whatever happens now, we will be involved in a day-to-day struggle to ensure the goods that we need to see flowing across our borders.”

He said: “It will happen at whatever cost it has to bear – but that obviously shapes and impacts on people’s future investment plans. It’s not a happy place for us to be.”

None of the three witnesses could state a reason for welcoming the end of the transition period, on 31 December, when challenged by Hilary Benn, the Brexit committee’s chairman.


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mack341

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I would just say that as a leave voter I was not expecting an instant GDP increase or economic boom, it was a decision mainly based on the long term.

However I can't hear much merriment from the other current EU members that they're going to benefit so much by staying in either.
 
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TheAddict

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How dare you, Mack!?
Obviously everyone cast their leave vote based on what the heel dragging May, or embarassing Boris were saying. How dare you take into account what kind of life your children are going to be subjected too.

dareyou.gif
 

ChopleyIOM

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I would just say that as a leave voter I was not expecting an instant GDP increase or economic boom, it was a decision mainly based on the long term.
Let's run with that then.

So right out of the gate you're saying you thought that every prominent Leave campaigner was lying to you, so for example:

1) Easy trade deal with EU
2) Maintain the benefits of being an EU member
3) Economic boost
4) Great trade deals with major other world powers
5) No downsides/we hold all the cards
6) £350m per week for the NHS

etc etc - we all remember the bullshit.

You didn't believe any of that, i.e. you literally thought everyone in Vote Leave was lying to you, but you voted leave anyway for 'stuff' that is neither defined nor understood, that may or may not materialise years down the line, and in the meantime all the negative effects are a price for worth paying for..... 'stuff', five or ten years from now?

And the thousands of job losses, and the border in Kent, and the trashing of the UK's reputation on the world stage, and the fact that every major UK industry is at red alert, and the impending massive disruption to trade, and all the rest of it, all that's a price worth paying for 'long term' benefits?

What are those long term benefits, exactly? I ask because all the good stuff Vote Leave said would happen has vanished into thin air, and they've stopped even pretending.
 

mack341

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I thought the EU were likely to be spitting angry, therefore willing to shoot us both in the feet, cut their nose off to spite their face [or rather their members] etc...

I shall return to this subject later on once the trade deal has been made, or not as the case may be.

If you can see no disadvantages to being in the EU then you will not see any advantages to being out.
 

ChopleyIOM

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Funny to think we're on the cusp of the end of the transition period and we don't even have a trade deal with the EU yet, which was supposed to be the easiest part of all.

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ChopleyIOM

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EU takes the first step in legal action against the UK for announcing its intention (and legislating accordingly in Parliament) to break international law with regards to the Withdrawal Agreement. (Which is also an immediate breach of the 'good faith' provision.)

The UK is now about to discover what happens when a 'sovereign' nation makes and then reneges on international agreements.

I can't believe how many cards we hold and how much control we're taking back. It's amazing. (Because let's face it folks, the UK are guilty as charged. In legal terms, we're stood over the body with the bloody knife in our hand, arguing that we only murdered someone in a 'limited and specific way'.)

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ChopleyIOM

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Go on, who had:

'The UK will announce its intention to break International law, and legislate in Parliament to enable it to do so, in terms of reneging on a legally binding Withdrawal Agreement that its government voluntarily negotiated, signed and campaigned for a general election on the back of, and as a result the EU will start legal action against the UK, with three months to go before the end of the transition period at which point the UK will crash out of the EU in a No Deal Brexit'.

On their list of, 'I knew what I was voting for'.
 

ChopleyIOM

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Go on, who had:

'The UK will announce its intention to break International law, and legislate in Parliament to enable it to do so, in terms of reneging on a legally binding Withdrawal Agreement that its government voluntarily negotiated, signed and campaigned for a general election on the back of, and as a result the EU will start legal action against the UK, with three months to go before the end of the transition period at which point the UK will crash out of the EU in a No Deal Brexit'.

On their list of, 'I knew what I was voting for'.
ADDITION - To be clear, this isn't intended to be seen as an attack or taking the piss out of those who voted Leave, but it is absolutely an attack on the total liars and fraudsters who peddled a fantasy Brexit that could never exist, that could never survive contact with reality, and that has plodded, with depressing and dreadful inevitability, to where we are now.

Johnson and his awful, fucking terrible government, have made a bad situation far worse, especially with their 'oven-ready deal' horseshit that won an election off the back of a legally binding withdrawal agreement that was so godawful they've now had to legislate to break international law to try and avoid implementing it, and placed us in the utterly humiliating position that the EU are beginning legal action against us at the same time that we're asking them for a trade deal.

I swear to god you could have put a group of monkeys in charge and they couldn't possibly have fucked things up as much as Johnson's government has. Or rather, and let's not kid ourselves here, as Dominic Cummings's government has.
 

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