Brexit - whats the difference.....

Slottery

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Possibly the reason for that is the EU haven't been 'negotiating in good faith', which is part of the WA. Does 'we won't discuss a free trade deal, until you first agree for us to continue to have unfettered access to your fish' ring any bells?
Wouldn't really say it's EU who's not "negotiating in good faith", EU is negotiating good things to itself and all it's countries, it more seems that UK negotiators thought (and like that oven ready trade deal was promoted) that it's possible to cherry pick what they want and get it. Of course there are many things EU want and demand, there's not gonna be any birthday presents for leaving countries. Don't know where these all thoughts came that UK just tell what want and get it without anything. Now it seems that UK is not even happy to honor already signed deals.

It's really hard to see outside of UK that it would be EU here who just wanna be bad for UK and not negotiate. It seem to be otherway round that UK would be happy that EU would leave table that there would be somebody else to blame than Bojo&Co but that really don't seem to be the case. There are loads of words and some niche things which really are not that major which UK negotiators want to blame EU to be bad, but if talks for ever go around some fcking fishing things what shouldn't be really high priority (but it's made one to be symbolic to show how bad EU is and some other quite imaginary stories how EU still try to steal UK sovereignty which looks good in UK papers and give people feeling that it is big bad EU who want to revenge and destroy us because we left).

There's not that much time left anymore, then at least it's too late to bluff anymore, of course afterwards years and decades people there keep speaking how rude and evil EU was from us and it's their fault that some things are fcked up. Looking to mirror don't seem to be biggest strength of Bojo but maybe (or maybe not) he at one point have to admit to people that this great brexit wasn't that great success than we loudly promoted.
 

ChopleyIOM

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Dominic cummings wants to up govt investment into the technology sector, seems eminently sensible, and therefore we can't run the risk of the EU and its courts interfering & deciding what we can and can't do in this regard.
Yes, about that.....

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ChopleyIOM

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Of course they knew. That's pretty much a given.

What I'm saying is that they literally had no choice at the time...politically we were in a quandary here. Parliament was useless because nothing could pass. Whilst we were in this position, other areas of governance were being neglected by default. Boris didn't have the numbers to push anything through. Therefore he needed a big majority. He got it...but he wouldn't have done unless the deal was signed. His whole campaign was based on 'get Brexit done'.

The people then voted him in to get Brexit done- but he could only do this with his majority in parliament.

At the time it was a catch 22 so it really was the only way to get any progress at all.
The interesting thing about what you've said there Mr Slot is that you've literally just admitted that the only way to 'GET BREXIT DONE' and get the WA through parliament and get the British public to vote for the 'OVEN READY DEAL' was for everyone involved to lie their arses off about it.

i.e. Actually telling the truth about what the WA involved would have been unpalatable to both parliament and the public. Johnson lied and lied and lied about the implications of the WA (or rather, the lack of implications), lied about his 'oven ready deal', and lied to his own MPs, assuring them that they could 'change the WA later on' to get them to vote for it.

Also let's remember that the WA was only signed and ratified after Johnson had won the election with an 80 seat majority, so he could have paused for breath at that point and taken stock of what he was about to commit the UK to in international law.
 
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Slottery

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Are there btw any concrete plans about these tech project or is it just start from point zero and let's do something? I have to admit that i have no idea how much tech companies and it as industry exist in UK these days. Just interested what some huge tech company will start to do or is it just planning in progress? It's also quite competitive industry with few huge and loads of smaller companies who are doing quite good products as possible with current technology, so just thinking what is the area where that huge tech project is going to make its market share? If there are already some great companies with good business plans and products, excuse me my lack of knowledge, just can't get any to my head right away.

Just meant that if there are no many good projects already or in pipeline, it's not really easy just decide to start to do something and compete with these giant companies who have been in business for very long time. Building better tech products and make people to change their Apples, Samsungs etc... to them is not really easy, investing $1tn doesn't yet give you anything.
 

ChopleyIOM

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Are there btw any concrete plans about these tech project or is it just start from point zero and let's do something? I have to admit that i have no idea how much tech companies and it as industry exist in UK these days. Just interested what some huge tech company will start to do or is it just planning in progress? It's also quite competitive industry with few huge and loads of smaller companies who are doing quite good products as possible with current technology, so just thinking what is the area where that huge tech project is going to make its market share? If there are already some great companies with good business plans and products, excuse me my lack of knowledge, just can't get any to my head right away.

Just meant that if there are no many good projects already or in pipeline, it's not really easy just decide to start to do something and compete with these giant companies who have been in business for very long time. Building better tech products and make people to change their Apples, Samsungs etc... to them is not really easy, investing $1tn doesn't yet give you anything.
Rumours abound that it's a vehicle for Cummings and his pals to get very rich. (You only need to look at how the various health contracts have been issued during Covid to see which way the wind is blowing on that one.)

Also, as noted above, without data sharing agreements and suchlike (which the EU are hardly going to be falling over themselves to give us now, since we've proven ourselves to be completely untrustworthy), it's basically dead in the water anyway.
 

ChopleyIOM

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And again on the Northern Ireland situation, this was known about years ago. The reason it didn't reach critical mass during the referendum campaign and in the years that followed, and has only reached nuclear level now, is that the Leave side has been lying and lying and lying about it.

But that's the thing with lies, eventually they get found out.

You can tell how far this one goes back just by the fact it refers to Theresa May's dilemma!

Like much of Brexit, the NI situation with regards to Brexit has always existed in 'D' - i.e. Impossible, magical thinking, unicorns.

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dunover

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Rumours abound that it's a vehicle for Cummings and his pals to get very rich. (You only need to look at how the various health contracts have been issued during Covid to see which way the wind is blowing on that one.)

Also, as noted above, without data sharing agreements and suchlike (which the EU are hardly going to be falling over themselves to give us now, since we've proven ourselves to be completely untrustworthy), it's basically dead in the water anyway.
I dunno about Brexit, but you've just cost me £36......:D

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Slottery

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Rumours abound that it's a vehicle for Cummings and his pals to get very rich. (You only need to look at how the various health contracts have been issued during Covid to see which way the wind is blowing on that one.)

Also, as noted above, without data sharing agreements and suchlike (which the EU are hardly going to be falling over themselves to give us now, since we've proven ourselves to be completely untrustworthy), it's basically dead in the water anyway.
Ok, so they have nothing, get public investment for developing and doesn't matter what happen, they can pocket some dosh as dividends, salaries, buying things from companies they have connections and other such nice stuff.
Was just wondering that if they really have something, there are no any area in high tech where you just make product easily without long developing, great idea to do something better than others and loads of knowhow. These international tech giants are just so huge and in business so long time that you don't easily push ie. Google off from market and take their share, all parts of that industry have their big players who are miles ahead if you start from near zero so just saying that we invest £xxxxx to tech company(ies) don't really ring you anything, you can of course make some people rich if you get investments.

Starting to wait first UK big tech break through and if it's consumer product, will buy for support :)
 

mack341

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Interesting interview that mentions the EU needs the city of London, because the currency isn't sovereign, in the traditional sense, the debt ought to be treated as riskier. So the companies in the EU raise a lot of finance from London at a cheaper cost than they ought, maybe this is the underlying reason for the uk govt's confidence that the EU will at some point compromise.

The govt don't seem worried at all re brexit, ditto the crushing covid lockdown effect on the economy, we'll just print the money it seems, '100 billion for a 'moonshot' testing scheme, sure why not'.

 

ChopleyIOM

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Well that interview was seven months ago and I don't recall hearing any stories of dramatic EU concessions since then.....

One thing's for sure though, we don't have much longer to wait to see how it's all going to pan out.....
 

mack341

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An extract from a piece written by reynolds in the daily telegraph; also throws light on why the EU covid rescue deal was so hard to agree, the rich north and comparatively poor south issue in the EU.
Which could be a political hot potato for the north to resolve with their electorate in the long term.

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The Telegraph, April 21st, Barnabas Reynolds

There is a critical defect at the heart of the Eurozone. It is becoming more obvious by the day that its finances are fundamentally flawed, and this is because there is no single sovereign entity raising capital for the whole Eurozone.

At present, all separate Eurozone countries raise monies on the debt capital markets without fear that any of them can be punished (as an individual country) by currency collapse. This is in particular because strong Eurozone states, especially Germany, now run very large surpluses. These surpluses are primarily due to the euro’s value being depressed, which in turn is because the southern Eurozone states have been and remain less competitive, heavily indebted, economies.

These surpluses also arise because Eurozone sellers, especially in the successful north, are subsidised by the Eurosystem’s fiscal arrangements which provide unlimited financing to their Eurozone-based buyers – massively increasing member debts, particularly in the south.

This is an unstable situation and, unless rectified, sooner or later the expense of debt servicing will overwhelm the southern states. Unless the north agrees to fix matters by “mutualising” southern debt while moving to an integrated union – more like the USA, resulting in a steady transfer of funds from the Eurozone’s north to south – this problem is likely to precipitate state bankruptcy in the south. However, the north currently emphatically refuses to consider mutualisation, thus enjoying unalloyed benefits from these self-funding arrangements. Now the additional and enormous cost brought on by the Covid-19 pandemic increases the threat of state bankruptcy in the south, hazarding consequences even more dangerous than before.

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This is what EU fanatics like verhofstadt want, closer union: central army, foreign policy and taxes, more or less one unified state.
 

ChopleyIOM

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Let's not get too carried away, the government's own figures peg it at a 0.07% boost to UK GDP over the next fifteen years (no, really).

Compare that with the 5-7% loss to UK GDP that leaving the EU and Single Market is predicted to cost us.

It's also substantially the same as the EU-Japan trade deal we'd have got anyway as an EU member (despite what the UK government are saying (hint - lying) about it).

Don't get me wrong, it's still a good thing overall, but it also neatly demonstrates how getting Deals as opposed to No Deals, is actually a good thing.....

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mack341

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I won't comment on what I think about James o'brien, but I remember him using his morning radio show to strongly advocate for the Iraq war, which helped me along the road to realise what a con the new labour project was. So nothing changes, nearly 20 years later, and he is still on the same page as Tony Blair. [a fellow eu fanatic]

If we can conclude this deal with japan why is it so hard to get a deal with the EU, something we were a part of for 40 odd years, I am convinced it is the EU being unreasonable, they are still more interested in their power grabbing project than getting a good FTA.


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I also read elsewhere that NI has to vote for the arrangements in the WA to continue, which I did not know:

The Withdrawal Agreement effectively places Northern Ireland under EU economic jurisdiction – a kind of EEA-for-NI deal. At the same time, NI remains within the UK customs area. So NI can benefit from certain aspects of changes to UK tariffs or from trade agreements the UK does with non-EU countries. But its regulations are largely set by the EU.

The arrangement is not permanent. Northern Ireland has to vote to continue with the arrangements, once every four years (or 8 years under certain technical circumstances). If it does not vote to continue, the arrangements lapse and Northern Ireland comes back under UK regulatory jurisdiction.
 
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mack341

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This clip of barnier is very telling [0.46] when the subject of the backstop comes up " for me there is also a strategic and tactical reason, which is using ireland for future negotiations"


So a deliberate ploy by the EU to leverage the Irish troubles and situation for their own (power mad) ends, and in order to thwart the outcome, in reality, of the brexit vote; and remainers in the uk govt like theresa may, olly robbins etc.. gladly went along with it.
 

ChopleyIOM

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Yes it's definitely the EU's fault, those tricky tricksters.

Just so we're clear, by using some form of advanced mind control they manged to make Johnson do the following with regards to the WA.

1) Negotiate it
2) Agree to it
3) Call it 'oven-ready'
4) Campaign for a general election on the basis of it
5) Win an election mandate off the back of it
6) Transpose it into law on a three-line whip

None of this is ever the Leavers fault is it? Apparently there's a world where they just don't have to own ANY of this, and it's all down to the dastardly EU - it's cognitive dissonance on a biblical scale.
 
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mack341

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Yes it's definitely the EU's fault, those tricky tricksters.

Just so we're clear, by using some form of advanced mind control they manged to make Johnson do the following with regards to the WA.

1) Negotiate it
2) Agree to it
3) Call it 'oven-ready'
4) Campaign for a general election on the basis of it
5) Win an election mandate off the back of it
6) Transposed it into law on a three-line whip

None of this is just ever the Leavers fault is it? Apparently there's a world where they just don't have to own ANY of this, and it's all down to the dastardly EU - it's cognitive dissonance on a biblical scale.
I agree re Johnson, no idea what was going through his mind entirely, slot5 explained it a few posts back but to me it still doesn't make full sense, I would like to see several MP's ask him on this very point, boris was bigging the deal up as well, so that was blatant bs to the public.

However to me the EU still bear the brunt of criticism, at the bottom of it they are quite happy to ignore the results of democratic votes, it's happened before [I think with the lisbon treaty vote in ireland?] as well. They've been getting too big for their boots, and will carry on doing so once the covid crisis moves on.
 

ChopleyIOM

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I agree re Johnson, no idea what was going through his mind entirely, slot5 explained it a few posts back but to me it still doesn't make full sense, I would like to see several MP's ask him on this very point, boris was bigging the deal up as well, so that was blatant bs to the public.
The explanation is clear once you understand and accept that Johnson is an opportunistic chancer who will say anything and everything if it gets him over the immediate hump of whatever it is that's causing him trouble at any given time, and absolutely will tell baldfaced lies if it suits his agenda.

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