Brexit - whats the difference.....

[dunover]

If Sturgeon is in any way suggesting leaving the UK will enable re-entry to the EU she is talking utter shite. Scotland as a single country is nowhere near, and cannot achieve in the near future, the qualifying conditions regarding GDP, national debt and expenditure.
Even if they could, how on earth would it help? Would EU companies flood there, to about the most remote part of Europe from their main markets? A small market, on its own of about 7m people? As someone pointed out earlier, you would have a land and sea border between Scotland and NI/England with customs checks too, and Scotland would face the same restrictions on trade with the rest of the UK as the EU countries do now. The UK as a whole is a big enough and wealthy enough entity to survive outside Europe. I doubt Scotland is, outside of the UK.

Unlike Brexit, IndyRef has no historical, political or economic reason to occur.

The just seems to be an endless string of politicos like Salmond, Sturgeon who are ambitious personalities eager to see who can ultimately get themselves immortalized in Bronze outside Holyrood as the great warrior who won independence. I just hope that that half-million quid, sorry 560,000 Euro statue doesn't exact a much greater cost from my fellow countrymen north of the border.

If I were you guys, I'd be sweating like Alec Salmond walking through a typing pool.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Just thought i would slip a comment on the thread.

Maybe Brexit has not worked out the way planned. Tho Coronavirus has also done a good job in destroying the economy short term and maybe long term.

5 years from now we might be better off or we might be totally screwed.

You might turn out to be correct in your views that it was worst thing ever Chopley time will tell.

But here is the main point. All this people did not get what they voted for maybe correct for a few. But in truth out of all the voters the vast majority have no clue about any of it. They just voted Brexit for various reasons. Most have no clue whether things are better for them or not. They will not be sitting thinking we got lied to as they will not even know if country is better or not and won't even know a thing about companies moving abroad or going bust.

Truth of matter is most people that voted would not even sit thinking how will country be in 10 years. They voted as they got caught up in the hysteria of it all and thought why should we be run by europe and if i vote i can stop my street getting full of immigrants . Sad but true.

It is just the same in Scotland. Anyone with a bit of sense can see that if we go independent the country is screwed and financially we will be fucked and we would need a border with the main country England that nearly all trade goes through.

But most people have no clue about any consequences. They just go we will be Independent and not answer to England. God there are many thousands that even vote independence because they hate the Royal Family. Fact of matter is i would say that in all these votes the majority and i mean actual majority have not got a clue what they are voting for.

So yes lies on both sides. Yes Fishermen etc. might be getting a rough deal. Businesses might be struggling. But then again the country still remained Locked down when more businesses have went bust than Brexit will cause. But to keep saying the people did not get what they voted for is not exactly correct. Some did not get what they voted for but most did not have a clue what they voted for and still have no clue whats happened.

Again Paul, there's a lot in there I agree with, and I've said as much myself earlier in this thread.

The fact is an awful lot of people had no bloody idea what they voting for, and I include Remainers in that as equally as Leavers.

I'm still of the opinion it should have never gone to a referendum, the issues are simply far too complex and nuanced for the average person to be expected to have any understanding of without doing a huge amount of research first, I don't care if someone is a Remainer or a Leaver, the vast majority of them had no clue that, for example, the situation with NI would end up being so precarious.

(For clarity, I'm not saying voters on either side were too stupid to understand the issues, just that they'd never had any cause to try to.)

This is literally what we elect politicians and governments for, so they can deal with all this complex shit, as their actual jobs (which they are paid very well for), whilst we get on with all the stuff we have to deal with in our own lives, IMO the referendum was just an abrogation of responsibility by a political class that was too cowardly to have the courage of its convictions.

The EU wasn't even remotely on the radar of most people as a cause for concern prior to the referendum, we all know Cameron only promised one in the first place as he was worried about UKIP nibbling at Tory heels in a few too many marginal constituencies.

One thing I will say is that when it comes to the business impact, many businesses who managed just fine last year during Covid, are now struggling horrendously with Brexit. Companies that managed to carry on running and keep exports/imports to and from the EU flowing smoothly all through 2020 have been knocked for six by the imposition of customs checks, extra costs, mountains of paperwork, delivery chains becoming impenetrable nightmares etc. UK businesses will go under, UK jobs will be lost, and the EU is ready and waiting to welcome both.

So yes, I agree with the broad thrust of what you're saying there Paul, but given that reality, I honestly think you can logically conclude from that position that the referendum itself was a bad idea, why hand over responsibility for a decision with such huge potential consequences to a load of people who literally have no real idea what those consequences might be, don't really care about them afterwards, and don't even know whether or not things have got better or worse as a result.

And for the record, I include Remainers and Leavers equally in that analysis, and indeed myself. I've only clued myself up in the years since the referendum result came through, prior to it actually being held I, like an awful lot of people, never gave it much thought if I'm honest. I'd have ticked the 'Remain' box, but I couldn't have given much in the way of good reasons for doing so.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Now the price we paid for a quick deal is dangerously near selling N.I. down the river so I hope Johnson does invoke Article 16 when necessary, if not already. You see, the already-bitter EU leaders after Brexit are now even more twisted due to the complete monumental fuck-up they've made over vaccination and find it unbearable the the UK is opening up and they are closing down due to their third waves. And our weak spot, a scab they can pick at for petty revenge? Yes, Northern Ireland.

This guy you mean?

Yeah the EU are totally to blame for this one!

If only he hadn't negotiated, campaigned for, and signed a deal that put a border in the Irish sea.

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[mack341]

and the EU market would be just as accessible as before, no new red tape, no new restrictions, just fresh opportunities and reclaiming our waters for UK fishermen

but the shocking thinness of Johnson's deal has left many of them with their businesses in tatters, again, it's no use to them if things get better in a decade or more, if they can't even make it through the next year.

I agree with these points, but conclude the british govt didn't do a good enough job negotiating the exit deal, and then to compound that, didn't proactively assist affected businesses to navigate the new paperwork and controls.

They've sacrificed damage to some sectors [sme firms and fishermen] and weakened the union to get a 'free trade' deal over the line that they could proclaim across the headlines, maybe the alternative was too scary.

But have we seen or read clear information, via a tv report or newspaper article, of examples where red tape problems faced by fishermen and the SME's are insurmountable, the specifics etc...it would be better if they were known about in the hope they could be resolved, otherwise it's vague moaning that no one can verify or look into solving.

The EU do not want to make brexit a smooth, pain free experience, so that has to be taken into account - how many of these are real problems with some logic behind them, and how many have been created just to be awkward.

 

[mack341]

Brexit: New study shows half of leavers were not ‘left behind’ supporters but ‘affluent’​

DAILY EXPRESS

A report by UK in a Changing Europe shows that half of Brexiteers were actually comfortably well off. The research highlights that they did not have expectations of huge economic gains but thought that leaving the EU would help address other issues in Britain.

The report reads: “An image of the left-behind leave voter has taken hold: a poorly educated inhabitant of a faded seaside town or the grim, post-industrial north.

"But we forget too easily that no place (or group of people) is wholly homogenous.

“Many people voted for Brexit even in the most pro-remain places; more than a million people in Scotland and 1.5 million in London voted leave.”

The report added: “Comparing the two groups finds that the Leave ‘tribe’ shares a sense of domestic priorities that require significant further investment: the police and fighting crime; the NHS and care workers; bringing back proper, secure work for high quality domestic production – as well as apprenticeships in real jobs.”

 

[mack341]

 

[ChopleyIOM]

In other news, intelligence void Tory MP Andrew Bridgen and prominent Leaver says we've been 'stitched up' by the EU.

Very clever of them considering we're not a member anymore and have taken back control whilst holding all the cards.

 

[mack341]

'being stitched up' present tense suggests we could still do something about it

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So I guess we've all seen what's happened with Norway and fishing.

(If not, then the TL: DR is that Norway and the UK have failed to reach an agreement on fishing rights, with the result that the UK now can't catch fish in Norwegian waters (putting a large UK trawler out of business that catches 10% of cod consumed in the UK), and the Norwegians can't fish in UK waters - for the next twelve months, details here:

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)

The interesting thing is that the 'don't they know we're sovereign equals' and 'this is the EU punishing us' narrative falls down here, because Norway isn't an EU member. This is where the sovereign equal argument works both ways, and Norway as such a country has decided to flex its muscles, and we walked away from the table with nothing, as Norway felt it had more to gain by telling us to bugger off than not doing so.

Of course, if the UK were still an EU member, they wouldn't have been able to do this, because all this stuff was negotiated as part of wider EU deals, but now we have to go up against Norway as a 'sovereign equal', and it hasn't worked out well.

The final kicker here is that Norway will still be able to sell their cod into the UK tariff-free, as they will benefit from the trade deal the UK signed with EU, and Norway are a member of the Single Market. (Remember, that thing the UK quit as part of its Brexit hissy fit.)

So if you want to stand up for Britain, it's time to start boycotting good old British cod and chips, because we won't be catching any of it.

Who knew this stuff could get so complicated, eh?

(The problem with cod is there's very little of it in UK waters, so we're left with a load of fish that we don't eat and just export to the EU. Or rather, did export to the EU, until Brexit fucked that as well.)

 

[Kroffe]

So I guess we've all seen what's happened with Norway and fishing.

Thats a bold guess.

 

[mack341]

Despite feeling british fishermen's individual livelihoods have not really been the focus of the british govt, when compared to say the way france, belgium holland etc wanted to help theirs stay in a job... the below info provides a good counter view of this norway uk issue:

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Completely sane headline. Brexit dividends all round.

Admittedly I was expecting war headlines to take another 12 months or so at least.

 

[cncas2123]

Completely sane headline. Brexit dividends all round.

Admittedly I was expecting war headlines to take another 12 months or so at least.

View attachment 154677

No comment on the French boats blockading the harbour? Must be ok for them to do that because they are an EU country???

 

[ChopleyIOM]

That's in the headline that I posted. I'm not making any particular comment one way or the other, save to say that British and French military boats heading to Jersey for a stand off thanks to another facet of Johnson's dogshit Brexit deal seems suboptimal at best.

I mean, what are they going to do, actually start shooting at each other?

It's quite a complicated situation, although the TL: DR is that Johnson has, shock horror, thrown more people under the bus to get what he wants -

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[mack341]

Nice of paris to threaten to cut off electricity to the island, surely that must breach wto rules.

 

[geordiecolin]

Nice of paris to threaten to cut off electricity to the island, surely that must breach wto rules.

Are Casinomeisters as well as many casinos servers residing in Jersey?
If so and France pulls the plug then it will mean war!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A proper analysis here for those who are interested.

Neither side seems to have covered themselves in glory.

The short version is more Brexit mess, unpicking things that had been settled for years, and the Jersey government replacing it with something not fit for purpose.

Expect a climbdown shortly.

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[mcgameboy]

This bit made me laugh....

Claude La Vaullée, a Norman skipper who has fished off Jersey for 40 years, found that his boat, Le Cach, had been given the right to fish for 11 hours a year. He told the regional newspaper Ouest France, that he and other skippers had now equipped their vessels to “re-stage the Battle of Trafalgar”.

I guess Monseiur Claude has kinda forgot that Trafalgar didn't exactly "end well" for the French

I mean he could have at least named a naval battle that the French actually won.

Quelle con stupide

 

[interlog]

"War has been declared"..... you couldn't get any more dramatic than that..... talk about bigging something that is nothing up

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Six months apart, this was our fearless EU negotiator who 'got the job done'.

(I'm guessing we've all noticed that British farmers are next to get thrown under the bus?)

Interesting that he's now kind of blaming the UK parliament for signing a shit deal with the EU, that apparently we had to sign, even though we negotiated it and it was so great and worth fighting an election for.

 

[paul7388]

I'm guessing we've all noticed that British farmers are next to get thrown under the bus?)

Nope would imagine it is just you that has noticed it on here lol.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nope would imagine it is just you that has noticed it on here lol.

Fair enough, I appreciate Brexit and Reality need to be kept a safe distance from each other

 

[pinnit2014]

Very true, you did a great job last month of splitting Brexit and the N Ireland situation reality

 

[mack341]

so if there hadn't been a 'benn-burt' act we'd needn't have gone through 3 years of palaver

 

[sufferinsilence]

Clear Brexit feeling tonight as the UK got 0 points on the Eurovision Song Contest ?