Brexit - whats the difference.....

mack341

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well that is another way of putting it, how are they going to be able to scrutinise the govt's brexit policy constructively, if they simply see brexit as a cluster**** that the tories have to own. [And they shouldn't forget the millions of working class labour voters who also voted to leave the EU] The two modes of thought are incompatible.
 

danofthewibble

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Not really - right now, they can't win any votes. The Tories won't vote in significant numbers against their own party, so it's all on them.

Fixed term parliaments - something that should never have been agreed. It was always a power grab, and voting for it was nonsensical.
 

mack341

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I agree the fixed term act should be repealed, it's a load of BS, every govt already had the option of sitting out their full term, the act just got rid of the flexibility in the system.
 

ChopleyIOM

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Not really - right now, they can't win any votes. The Tories won't vote in significant numbers against their own party, so it's all on them.
As per the famous Napoleon quote - 'Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake'

You're quite right dan, there are no votes in Brexit right now, it's the ultimate poisoned chalice, and the Tories will have nowhere to hide and no one else to blame, this is entirely their clusterfuck.
 

ChopleyIOM

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And indeed, on that note.....

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Refusing to extend the transition period was a huge tactical error on Johnson’s part, which will become obvious as the clock ticks down to the end of the transition period. With just days left to get the principles of a future trade deal agreed, Johnson has boxed himself in once more and has just one option – to accept a thin, highly asymmetric deal tilted in the EU’s favour.

No other outcome is now possible.

Despite all the threats of leaving without a deal, Johnson knows coronavirus has made what was always an unlikely outcome, an inconceivable one. British businesses, woefully unprepared for a no deal Brexit and already reeling from the economic impact of Covid-19, will suffer a second body blow when furloughing support comes to an end in October. A third, self-inflicted one would be political suicide.

Bloomberg reports that companies not only lack the cash to stockpile for a no deal Brexit, but are “unwilling to pay further Brexit-related costs on top of those already incurred preparing for previous deadlines”.


And the government itself is struggling to get the necessary infrastructure and IT systems ready in time. Amazingly, the Goods Vehicle Movement Service required to avoid massive queues at the Channel Ports is still in the research phase, with fewer than 90 working days to go.
 

goatwack

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Yes it is late in the day, but ultimately this is what tough negotiations amount to, the aim being that both/ all parties leave having secured a beneficial outcome on their end!

As it stands it's become a game of 'who blinks first', because presently this messy divorce leads to the EU getting the house, car & garden with the pond in it that has all the fish, the latter being the main bone of contention.

So a fairly non-beneficial outcome for the UK I'd say, with the alternative being a No Deal looming, the kind where you get to return to the drawing board and set your own autonomy without being hen-pecked into accepting a dud deal.

And businesses have been woefully ill-prepared for a No Deal, well we've only had the four years to acclimatize to that scenario, albeit not 'officially' until we Brexited.

Are we to assume no pre-deals were put in place, anywhere? Or verbal agreements made? Hmmm

So whilst the current standoff does indeed look fishy, it just smacks of more post-Brexit Brexiteer- bashing.

Is Bojo out of his depth? Probably, but he was the choice presented to us, Labour and Lib Dims don't count

Are Brexiteers racist uninformed pigheaded bigots, based on one Referendum? Undoubtedly, we'd established that one yonks ago (not to mention being on the wrong side of history)

Will Britain cease to be, and will its people end up foraging for food in its once green lands whilst typhoid-ridden and feral? Yep

Seemingly then the art of negotiating is to cave in to the demands of the person you're negotiating with, this makes one a bad negotiator. Chances are both will reach a compromise or just as likely we'll have a No Deal! Because ultimately that's the risk you take
 

ChopleyIOM

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It's all so shit and messy, with no apparent upsides, and indeed with the UK now scrabbling to get into a position that even remotely resembles one as beneficial as being an EU member, that one almost wonders, dare I say it, why we're even bothering at all.

Oh yes I remember, it's sovereignty, so that we can revoke the 0.21% of EU laws that were foisted upon us against our will during the entire period of our membership of the EU. (I note the economic argument has dropped off the radar completely now, since Brexit has already cost the UK more than what we paid in to the EU during the years of our membership, and it only goes downhill from here.)

Totally worth it.
 

goatwack

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It's all so shit and messy, with no apparent upsides, and indeed with the UK now scrabbling to get into a position that even remotely resembles one as beneficial as being an EU member, that one almost wonders, dare I say it, why we're even bothering at all.

Oh yes I remember, it's sovereignty, so that we can revoke the 0.21% of EU laws that were foisted upon us against our will during the entire period of our membership of the EU. (I note the economic argument has dropped off the radar completely now, since Brexit has already cost the UK more than what we paid in to the EU during the years of our membership, and it only goes downhill from here.)

Totally worth it.
Yes but hasn't that been the M.O all along?

Leave club that gives you advantages if in it (rightly or wrongly)

Acknowledge you're now at an instant disadvantage due to leaving said club

Aim to restore parity and get as much of what you had before prior to 'the big breakup'

I don't think anyone realistically stated the UK would be in a better position post-EU. Only thing we've had is those with a penchant for Remain reminding people how much worse everything'd be after the fact!
 

ChopleyIOM

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A decent piece here IMO.

There's a very important point here too, in that the EU doesn't really care all that much about Brexit now, it's happened, it's past tense, they're purely looking after their own interests and they will try to avoid a No Deal if possible but it will hurt us an awful lot more than it will hurt them, and they'll weather it better than we will.

They will also put the preservation of the EU and its principles above giving the UK a good deal, which is a fatal miscalculation the Leave side has always made.

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That isn’t to say that no deal is inevitable, or that the government has decided on that course. In fact, I suspect the truth is as simple as that the government genuinely believes the dogma of the Brexit echo chamber it now entirely inhabits which insists that ‘the EU always blinks at the last minute’. So on the one hand we’re seeing that strategy repeated and, on the other, getting a taste of how the government and media will present things if no deal turns out to be the consequence: ‘we tried to warn the EU what would happen if it didn’t meet our perfectly reasonable requests but they wouldn’t believe us’.

The logic of this is circular in that the more the EU makes it clear that it will countenance no deal if necessary, the more it confirms the Brexiter view that nothing will change until the very last moment. At the same time, it’s a highly peculiar strategy given that the adverse effects of no deal will be felt much more heavily by the UK than the EU. In effect, it’s a game of chicken which has strapped every man, woman and child in the UK in the path of an oncoming train, and the closer a collision comes the more it justifies staying there. The fallback plan, apparently, is to tell the maimed victims that it was the train driver’s fault.

So that’s the first and, clearly, the foremost blame game on display, that between the UK and the EU. Again, it’s a purely domestic game, because the EU itself won’t be that interested in it, and the member states even less so.
 

ChopleyIOM

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I don't think anyone realistically stated the UK would be in a better position post-EU. Only thing we've had is those with a penchant for Remain reminding people how much worse everything'd be after the fact!
Oh come now Mr Goatwack, I can't even begin to believe you typed that with a straight face :)
 

Playford7

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That's work in progress. When there is something to report we'll let you know.

FTR those we are upset by comments like yours are under no obligation to inform or discuss it with you. IMO given your outspoken position(s) of hatred and intolerance they would be unwise to do so. The Report system is there for their use and, as always, I encourage them to use it.
So after all the thoughts I’m taking it I’ll not be banned. That’s good.

As you have a hatred of me anyway this would of been a biased venture from the outset.

you already took away my free speech from the North Korea thread as it is max.

yes I get you don’t like me, but again rather than flex your banning muscles how about reaching out to me via email or PM And maybe start a discussion?

if you hated me that much then I’d happily have a phonecall and discuss why. Your bias and dislike of me you have stated yourself many times, and as a so called liberal mod it’s not fair, I’ve never called you max, yet you can call me a racist, a bigot and lowest of the low with no response, kind of bullying isn’t it?...

It’s easy to virtue signal about certain subjects when they don’t affect you or your family or those close to you.

not Flaming or wherever you internet people call it when adults have issue, I’d just like to know where I stand here please, and furthermore I’d love to have a open conversation with you regarding why you hate me and disagree with me so much.

best regards
Ben
 

goatwack

Get dunked, big buns!
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So after all the thoughts I’m taking it I’ll not be banned. That’s good.

As you have a hatred of me anyway this would of been a biased venture from the outset.

you already took away my free speech from the North Korea thread as it is max.

yes I get you don’t like me, but again rather than flex your banning muscles how about reaching out to me via email or PM And maybe start a discussion?

if you hated me that much then I’d happily have a phonecall and discuss why. Your bias and dislike of me you have stated yourself many times, and as a so called liberal mod it’s not fair, I’ve never called you max, yet you can call me a racist, a bigot and lowest of the low with no response, kind of bullying isn’t it?...

It’s easy to virtue signal about certain subjects when they don’t affect you or your family or those close to you.

not Flaming or wherever you internet people call it when adults have issue, I’d just like to know where I stand here please, and furthermore I’d love to have a open conversation with you regarding why you hate me and disagree with me so much.

best regards
Ben
"then I’d happily have a phonecall and discuss why"

You might wanna reverse the charges Benjamin. Could get expensive
 

Casinomeister

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It's thread like this that make me want to shut down the political rant section of the forum. I am f*&^ing fed up with the tit for tat racist bullshit that I am seeing here.

From here on out, if you want to have a political discussion - fine. Once you start bring race and bigoted comments in. It's toast.

I try to be as tolerant as possible. But some of you just take the piss. If you want to have a political rant where you can talk trash about refugees, or people of color, gays, or whatever the fuck - start your own website.
 

geordiecolin

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What is Barnpot Barnier on? He has stated

'Obviously the UK will recover the full sovereignty of their waters. No doubt. No question.

'But it is another thing, another story, speaking about the fish which are inside those waters.'

What :confused: How on earth does he work that one out?

The OECD states " An Exclusive Economic Zone is a concept adopted at the Third United Nations Cmference on The Law Of The Sea (1982) whereby a coastal state assumes juristiction over the exploration of marine resourses in its adjacent section of the continental shelf,taken to be a band extending 200 miles from the shore"

So what Barmy Barnier is stating is utter nonsense.

Furthermore,if what he is attempting to claim is lawful- fishing in English waters- where valid then he is advocating the pillaging of all other Euro member states waters by any Country that wants too.
Or does it only extend to EU Countries fishing in UK waters?
What he is saying is unlawful

What a pollock eh?
 

Mr_Slot5

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What is Barnpot Barnier on? He has stated

'Obviously the UK will recover the full sovereignty of their waters. No doubt. No question.

'But it is another thing, another story, speaking about the fish which are inside those waters.'

What :confused: How on earth does he work that one out?

The OECD states " An Exclusive Economic Zone is a concept adopted at the Third United Nations Cmference on The Law Of The Sea (1982) whereby a coastal state assumes juristiction over the exploration of marine resourses in its adjacent section of the continental shelf,taken to be a band extending 200 miles from the shore"

So what Barmy Barnier is stating is utter nonsense.

Furthermore,if what he is attempting to claim is lawful- fishing in English waters- where valid then he is advocating the pillaging of all other Euro member states waters by any Country that wants too.
Or does it only extend to EU Countries fishing in UK waters?
What he is saying is unlawful

What a pollock eh?
But the remainers will defend everything he says, just like they defended him saying the EU will have done a good job if they give us a deal that would make no other member want to leave the 'club'

Do these sound like the utterances of someone who has democracy in the forefront of their mind??
 

geordiecolin

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But the remainers will defend everything he says, just like they defended him saying the EU will have done a good job if they give us a deal that would make no other member want to leave the 'club'

Do these sound like the utterances of someone who has democracy in the forefront of their mind??
I think that Barmy Barnier is planning on modifying submarines with fishing nets to get around any obstacles.
When was the EU ever about democracy?
 

geordiecolin

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If you think about it in the long run the EU is an obsession about transnational territory, and having power over it and the resources therein. Therefore they're setting their stall out early and making a permanent claim for our fish now :mad:
It seems that given the UK's stance that is never going to happen. The UK paid into the EU infrastructure for decades what with their multi billion pound offices and headquarters which we are going to give them without even taking away a trinket for nostalgic purposes.
 

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