Casino Complaint BOVADA - Locking Jackpots, taking profit for themselves, cheating the players

MichaelBluejay

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Well, CL-Ed, I beat you to warning my readers (June 21, in all the advertising), but you beat me to posting a dedicated page about it. I just posted
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.


Thank you again for your work on this issue. Without your data, the world might never have known about the problem.
 

MichaelBluejay

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I just checked and Bovada appears to have quietly pulled all the Betsoft games with progressive jackpots. That's progress! Now let's see what happens from here....

When this is all over, I wonder whether Betsoft will:

(1) Admit fault but not apologize
(2) Admit fault *and* apologize
(3) Do neither

Should we start taking bets?
 

bowlingbob

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Thanks folks. If I knew how to make that message come up under your posts saying that I gave you thanks, I would do it!

Anyway today we decided to publish
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. This was based on a number of things detailed here including the jackpot irregularities, the stiffing of the player on the bitcoin site, and bowlingbob's post about their keno games in 2010 which I wasn't aware of before now (thanks bob). It certainly casts everything in a new light doesn't it.

To casino operators, all I can say is that I am hopeful that casinos that are running Betsoft games might actually step up to the plate and apply some pressure by dropping them until all these issues are proven to be fixed, and until the guy who is owed a million dollars is paid. Don't forget it could be your casino next that has to go through the public shame of not paying a progressive winner.


Just to correct you here its not a million dollars because the player was playing in mBTC. So he was in the .5 denomination and that equates to 500BTC with a value in the 300k range. Anyhow an interesting thing is that Betsoft has now added to the paytable of Glam Life to now reflect that the Jackpot cannot be won in any other bonus round. Of course this is after the fact that they are denying the player the jackpot based on this very rule that wasn't in the paytable when the player indeed hit the jackpot. Very sketchy.

As you can see below this screenshot differs from the one which Ed has on his casinolistings site.


glam.jpg
 
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jt2oux

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Good progress on this issue

Just wanted to give props to those involved in escalating this issue and getting the wheels of progress turning. For so long this seemed to be a blatantly ignored issue by the casino's and by BetSoft. Great work guys! Lets hope the Casino's do the right thing here during this moment of truth and opt for transparency & player fairness.
 

lockinlove

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really wild how bovada is so quiet and sneaky about this.

Also incredibly surprised no regs from this forum have chimed in at all when they jump in on other casinos at the snap of a finger.

Strange.
 

jshort

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really wild how bovada is so quiet and sneaky about this.

Also incredibly surprised no regs from this forum have chimed in at all when they jump in on other casinos at the snap of a finger.

Strange.

Well I'm following along with a bag of popcorn. There wasnt much I could contribute to this thread other than notifying Ed about its existence.

With that said, I'm a bit surprised too at the lack interest. I still remember when someone started bashing iNetbet awhile back, it turned into quite the frenzied hate thread with tons of users pooring out their disatisfsction......Maybe Betsoft and
Bovada are boring or less familiar????
 

RolfMoister

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Betsoft has been pulled from Bovada! :eek:
Slots.lv as well!

Boom Betsoft, maybe you should have listened to the people in the beginning instead of denying the fact and ignoring us?
 

MichaelBluejay

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Shoot, when I checked yesterday and I saw (and posted) about Bovada removing the Betsoft games with progressive jackpots, I didn't notice whether they'd actually removed *all* Betsoft games at that time, or whether that came later after they removed the progressives only. Probably the former. Also, I decided to check yesterday on whether the progressive were removed, and saw that they were, but I don't know how early they actually removed them. CL-Ed, can you find out from your jackpot data when the progressives stopped increasing?

Also, Casino Listings shows that Bad Girl 25¢ at Bovada hit 1d 3h ago! The 5¢, 10¢, and $1 still haven't hit. The 25¢ jackpot was $153,803, compared to an average value at Slots.lv of $4086. Of course, with all the sketchy stuff going on, I wonder if anyone actually won it, or if the jackpot was just reset.

And what's with Betsoft's new wording on The Glam Life, "Jackpot cannot be won during any *other* bonus feature" (emphasis added). The word "other" there is weird. But of course, yeah, they're changing the rules after the fact.

Speaking of The Glam Life, has anyone else noticed that one of the symbols is an *old* mobile phone (before smartphones). Seems out of place in a slot with a theme of luxury. Even today I know a lot of kids are embarrassed at school if they don't have a smart phone. It's like the slot might as well show a 32", square, CRT TV.

Yeah, I was telling my wife just last night how odd it was that no one seems to care about this issue. Especially Bryan, I thought he'd be all over both Betsoft's and Bovada's case about this.
 
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MichaelBluejay

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Another thing: If that Bad Girl 25¢ jackpot did really just hit, then that wasn't fair to all the people who fed the meter for months but actually had no chance of winning. I'd told Bovada that they should refund the progressive contribution to the affected players. I hope they did that, and then just reset the meter.
 

vinylweatherman

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When this started, we were told there was no issue, and that what was being seen was nothing more than natural variance. Later, we were told that in fact the problem had been known about all along, and had been under investigation for some time. This is the point at which things became seriously dodgy. It's pretty clear that they knew about this problem, but decided to cover it up so that they wouldn't have to pull the games and suffer a loss of revenue whilst the issue was investigated, identified, and fixed. Unfortunately, events caught up with them and now players have lost confidence in the integrity of the casinos offering the games, as well as the games themselves. I suspect Betsoft have been booted by the casinos, rather than having pulled the games themselves. Casinos probably realised that by continuing to offer games from a supplier where the evidence is overwhelming for some of these games to be faulty to the detriment of players they were risking their own business as well as that of the game supplier.

This is not the first time a game fault has been covered up, and it's been quite a fight to expose the issue and force the game providers and casinos to take action and compensate players. We also have a number of cases where it was no accident, but a deliberate intention to rip players off with cheating software, and this is where the real danger lies for casinos and game suppliers. Failing to act on a fault can lead to the impression that it was not a fault, but a deliberate scam that was operated for as long as they could keep it covered up and get away with it. This means that even when the fault is fixed, it can still take years to restore credibility in the casino or game supplier. How long did Ultimate Poker have to work at restoring trust after their cheating scandal was finally exposed after months of data gathering and analysis provided the necessary proof that it wasn't all down to bad luck in a fair game? Did the ever succeed?
 

MichaelBluejay

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Later, we were told that in fact the problem had been known about all along, and had been under investigation for some time.
Who told us that? That's the problem with passive voice, it's ambiguous. If you mean Bovada, they certainly didn't say what you allege that someone says.

vinylweatherman said:
It's pretty clear that they knew about this problem, but decided to cover it up so that they wouldn't have to pull the games and suffer a loss of revenue whilst the issue was investigated, identified, and fixed.
If you mean Bovada (because again, you didn't say), what you say is "pretty clear" is actually not clear at all. I think that they genuinely *thought* there was no problem, and only recently were they convinced by people like CL-Ed and me. I found out about the problem only on May 28, and wrote to my contact at Bovada less than a week ago.

vinylweatherman said:
Unfortunately, events caught up with them and now players have lost confidence in the integrity of the casinos offering the games, as well as the games themselves.
Really? There are, what, five or six people contributing to this thread? I think the overwhelming majority of players are blissfully unaware of the issue, and many of the rest simply don't care, especially if the problem is eventually fixed.
 

MichaelBluejay

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Betsoft has been pulled from Bovada!
No they haven't, and shame on me for assuming that this post was accurate, especially since it came from the same person who titled this thread "Bovada locking jackpots, taking profit for themselves."

Bovada has pulled only the games with progressive slots. I count nearly 50 Betsoft slots that are still live.
 

jt2oux

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I'm playing Good Girl Bad Girl on Bovada as we speak

They only pulled it on their website games played via browser. I am playing GGBG and Greedy Goblin at this moment using the Bovada Casino app. Still available..
 

vinylweatherman

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Who told us that? That's the problem with passive voice, it's ambiguous. If you mean Bovada, they certainly didn't say what you allege that someone says.

If you mean Bovada (because again, you didn't say), what you say is "pretty clear" is actually not clear at all. I think that they genuinely *thought* there was no problem, and only recently were they convinced by people like CL-Ed and me. I found out about the problem only on May 28, and wrote to my contact at Bovada less than a week ago.

Really? There are, what, five or six people contributing to this thread? I think the overwhelming majority of players are blissfully unaware of the issue, and many of the rest simply don't care, especially if the problem is eventually fixed.


This is what happens when those involved on the industry side decide to keep quiet rather than let customers know exactly what is going on.

I was also referring to Betsoft, rather than individual casinos that carried their games.

The majority of players are probably unaware, but they have Google to make them aware, and the sudden disappearance of the progressive games with no announcement will have more than the 6 contributors of this thread looking for an explanation, and the most obvious way of doing this is using a search engine. This will bring up this thread, along with similar discussions elsewhere.

Even if they didn't know, it should have been obvious from the data that there was very likely a problem with the games.
 

vinylweatherman

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I heard back from an affiliate manager at Bovada. I presume I'm not able to share the details of what he told me, but in short, he basically said they've been actively investigating the issue for a while. I told them that their response has been completely inadequate. They should have confirmed the problem months ago and pulled the games in question, and now they should be giving much better public responses, including what actions they intend to take, along with timeframes. I'm not holding my breath.

Yes, I know the source of the problem is Betsoft, but Bovada is their customer, not us, so Bovada's the one that needs to put the screws to Betsoft, and they're apparently not doing so.

This is where I got the impression that this issue was known about and being investigated whilst players were being given the message that there was no problem with the games. So Bovada knew there was an issue worthy of investigation, yet they said nothing to players and let the broken games continue to offer unwinnable jackpots.

The "I presume I'm not able to share the details" is another reflection of the policy of silence rather than frank communication with customers when such issues occur.

I am pretty certain that without the pressure placed on Bovada and betsoft over this from data gatherers and maths that was getting harder to refute as time went on, nothing would have been done about this issue and players would have been getting ripped off for much longer trying to win the unwinnable.
 

MichaelBluejay

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jt2oux said:
They only pulled it on their website games played via browser. I am playing GGBG and Greedy Goblin at this moment using the Bovada Casino app. Still available.
What app? I don't see Greedy Goblins or other progressive Betsoft slots on my iOS mobile app.

I was also referring to Betsoft, rather than individual casinos that carried their games.
You said, "Later, we were told that in fact the problem had been known about all along, and had been under investigation for some time." Betsoft never said that. Bovada never said that. Nobody ever said that. In that post you quoted of me, I said that Bovada said they've known about the issue for "a while", NOT "all along" as you misquoted.

Both Bovada and Betsoft have plenty to answer for, but let's stop inventing ridiculous, fictional misdeeds, such as Bovada "keeping the money for themselves" and "they knew about the problem all along".

vinylweatherman said:
So Bovada knew there was an issue worthy of investigation, yet they said nothing to players and let the broken games continue to offer unwinnable jackpots.
No, no, no, no, no! Bovada didn't immediately *know* that they had broken games. It took some convincing. (In fact, they still might not be convinced, but at least they're taking action.) We all know that for every 1000 players that allege that a casino is cheating or has broken games, maybe one is actually correct. When I started reading this thread, and it opened with the ridiculous "Bovada keeping the profit for themselves," I was already half not listening. How many times a day do you think Bovada gets complaints that its games are rigged, and how many times has that *ever* turned out to be true before now? You can see how initially they'd be skeptical that anything was really wrong.

When I wrote to them, quite recently, I tried to present the issue in a very understandable way, much differently than it was initially presented here. Maybe that made a difference to them, and that's why the finally pulled the games, I don't know. Bottom line is, Bovada's had a great reputation for many years and it's a stretch to believe they would *knowingly* offer bad games, *especially* when the unwinnable jackpot levels are publicly posted where the whole world can see them. If that was a scam, it was a pretty stupid scam.
 

CL-Ed

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The Betting Partners affiliate program which represents Bovada and related casinos have known about this since February 28 this year. I wrote them a detailed email pointing out the numbers and errors discovered. I was told that it was being passed on to "the product team".

I followed up a few more times over the following month or so but got nowhere. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt because I truly don't believe that it is the fault of any of the casinos. However there comes a point where you have to say enough is enough and draw a line. Now we get to see who does the right thing by their players and who doesn't.

I am pleased to see that Bovada has finally removed all the Betsoft progressive jackpot games from their website. If it was me I would remove all the rest too because we can hardly trust that they are fair games after all this, but its a start. I'd also like to know about the 25c Bad Girl jackpot at Bovada and whether it was won with or without an update to the game, or if the funds removed from the pot.

Anyway its a whole lot more than Betcoin have done for Jason, the guy who won the jackpot. They are instead playing the "we're just an intermediary, Betsoft controls the games, we can't do anything" card. And yet they continue to accept money from players on those games. That tells us all we need to know about Betcoin's operator.

If you're another operator reading this, you need to remove these games too. The problem is not confined to Bovada and Betcoin.
 

CL-Ed

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Just to correct you here its not a million dollars because the player was playing in mBTC. So he was in the .5 denomination and that equates to 500BTC with a value in the 300k range.

Thanks, that was my mistake. I'm used to thinking in dollars by default! We corrected that in our article on Friday.
 

bowlingbob

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BTW, the betsoft games in question can still be loaded up in real money from the Poker Client of Bovada.
 

RolfMoister

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No they haven't, and shame on me for assuming that this post was accurate, especially since it came from the same person who titled this thread "Bovada locking jackpots, taking profit for themselves."

Bovada has pulled only the games with progressive slots. I count nearly 50 Betsoft slots that are still live.
My bad. I saw that the Jackpot games were gone and didn't check the other games carefully enough.

In any case, this is good news!
 

MichaelBluejay

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The Betting Partners affiliate program which represents Bovada and related casinos have known about this since February 28 this year. I wrote them a detailed email pointing out the numbers and errors discovered. I was told that it was being passed on to "the product team".
CL-Ed, I'm trying to get the chronology straight. On 14 Feb. you wrote on
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, "All our inquires to Betsoft were ignored. Bodog / Bovada more or less said 'its the luck of the draw' which is pretty much all they can say unless they want to admit that the jackpots are somehow controlled." That predates the 28 Feb. date you gave in this thread. Is the 28 Feb. date a mistake, or was that a second (or third or fourth) attempt to contact Bovada? Do you have records of when you first contacted Bovada and Betsoft about the jackpot issue?

In other news, I'm starting to worry that we're not headed to a real resolution -- Bovada might just keep the Betsoft progressives pulled forever, and say nothing about it. That's not a satisfactory conclusion, since it would mean we never got confirmation from Betsoft that slots were indeed horked (and then fixed), and we wouldn't know if the players who contributed to the jackpot got their contributions refunded. I wish Bovada were more forthcoming about all this. Even though they've (finally) pulled the slots in question, they could certainly be better at communicating.
 

jasonort

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Stiffed for jackpot by BetSoft

I am the player in question who was stiffed for the jackpot. Details of my complaint can be found here:

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Screenshots of my unpaid jackpot winning spin can be found here:

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I have attempted to contact BetSoft with no response. They did quietly update their pay table for "The Glam Life" to exempt free spins from winning the jackpot. This language was not in the pay table at the time of my spin as evidenced buy screenshots shown at the link above.

I have filed complaints with Curacao eGaming commission as well as with the Malta gaming authority where BetSoft is licensed through their exclusive provider Digital Software Limited with a class 4 Lic. No. MGA/CL4/752/2011. I would appreciate any feedback on how I can pursue this with BetSoft, or through legal channels in Malta to get them to pay up. Thank you for any help you can lend.
 

MichaelBluejay

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Hi Jason, and I'm sorry that Betsoft stiffed you. Unfortunately, Casinomeister considers the Curaçao eGaming license to be worthless, so I wouldn't expect any help from Curaçao eGaming. I'm not familiar with going through Malta rather than Curaçao eGaming through which Betsoft is licensed.

The three main sites that advocate for players are this one (Casinomeister), Ask Gamblers, and The Pogg. I'd pick one of those and ask if they'll advocate on your behalf. I suggest Casinomeister, because even if they can't recover your money, at least they might add Betsoft to the rogue software providers list, and might add some details to their Curaçao eGaming section where they're already rated 0 out of 5.
 

CL-Ed

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CL-Ed, I'm trying to get the chronology straight. On 14 Feb. you wrote on
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, "All our inquires to Betsoft were ignored. Bodog / Bovada more or less said 'its the luck of the draw' which is pretty much all they can say unless they want to admit that the jackpots are somehow controlled." That predates the 28 Feb. date you gave in this thread. Is the 28 Feb. date a mistake, or was that a second (or third or fourth) attempt to contact Bovada? Do you have records of when you first contacted Bovada and Betsoft about the jackpot issue?

Yes that is right, it was the 2nd or 3rd time I contacted them. Feb 28 was the start date of the most recent thread I found in my email when I searched the other day. It was also my most detailed email with lots of facts and figures.

I think I am right in saying that Jason has already been dismissed without help by AskGamblers.
 
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