Bonus Issues at Mansion Casino

deucebag

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I played heavily on the affected game and have yet to receive an answer from Mansion regarding this issue, after 10 days and two reminders. Has everyone here been sorted out?

I got a quick reply that my complaint had been forwarded to some department, but no word since then.
 

brutaldeluxe

Full Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Location
UK
I wish ! Looks like many of us are being ignored. Having had the "you won on VP so it doesn't matter if we were cheating" reply and then expressing my annoyance them saying "thanks for that feedback, we'll pass that on" , since then I have heard nothing from them via email and they haven't made a reappearance in this thread. Wouldn't hold my breath like.
Of course when players cheat the casinos deal with it in about 0.000001 seconds.
 

RaiseThese

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Location
around
Hello everyone, My name is Edward.

I have been gambling online through sportsbook for over 10 years. Although I just started playing online casinos recently, I am very familiar with the online scene as a whole

I have been reading this site for about 6 months and have signed up with 13 of the accredited sites. (Didnt realize it was that many till I just counted them up) Did Mansion through someone else.

Although I read stuff on this site at least 5 days a week, Ive never posted because it has been pretty smooth sailing so far. Not necessarily gambling wise but at least BS wise. No one has jerked me around yet.:thumbsup:

(I have had one problem that is a current situation with Purple Lounge.:mad: I will give them a couple more days to resolve before I post about it. But if not resolved there could be some serious issues with either Microgaming or Prima regarding the tallying of wagers.)

Now Im in the same boat as alot of people with Mansion. In completing the bonus requirements at the time I wagered around 6k of it on the screwy VP which cost me somewhere between $150-$200. Certainly not chump change.
Through some very good luck I was able to come out ahead which is really beside the point.

Would not have known about duplicates if not reported here and I see it is mentioned in several other forum sites now, so its not a secret to those who read gambling forums.

They never responded to my first email for resolution so I sent them another one yesterday afternoon. Here is the reply.

Hello Edward,

Further to your ongoing Video Poker enquiry.

Apologies for the delay in the resolution of this issue; our Casino ops team is aware of its importance and are working towards a final response which will be forthcoming within the next 48hrs.

We sincerely hope this delay is not causing you too much inconvenience.

Should you require any further assistance or clarification on this or any other matter, please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Assuring you of our best attention at all times.

Kindest regards,

Theresa

MANSION Member Services

Now I will say that I hope this is straight up and that some of you who have been waiting for replay to try again. I hope they will realize it is in their best long term interest to resolve this fairly and swiftly.

I am mainly a sportbook guy and their exchange offers incredible value to me. I also enjoy their poker room and the freeroll and value added tournies offered.
 

squeakalot

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
oakland
e-mail just received:

Mansion said:
Dear Member,

After receiving enquiries from a small number of members, we have investigated and determined that versions
of Multi-Line Video Poker games have operated differently from the published rules since 6 June, 2006.

The difference existed only in the Multi-Line versions of Video Poker and meant that under certain circumstances
discarded cards would be recycled in approximately half of the hands dealt. The cause of the error was diagnosed
and repairs made on MANSION Casino on 27 July 2006. The theoretical affect is calculated to be an additional
advantage to the house of no greater than 1.3% dependant upon player strategy.

Since correcting the game to ensure it plays according to the published rules, we have taken the time of
ascertaining a full list of members affected. For those members, we have deposited into their MANSION account
a Casino Bonus payment equal to two percent (2%) of their handle on Multi-line Video Poker during the period in
question. Where the amount due to a member was less than 5, we have topped up the amount to exactly 5 or
currency equivalent. You have received (xxx) in your account (yyy).

MANSION prides itself on the quality of our products and the degree of trust our Members hold in us. We are of
course embarrassed by the error occurring and sincerely apologise to those members affected. We hope that our
efforts to promptly repair the error and make generous compensation is seen as a true and genuine attempt to
retain the trust and confidence of our members and that of the industry at large.

Yours sincerely,

MANSION Casino.
 

deucebag

Full Member
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Got it too, but the money has been added as playable bonus, with 0 playthrough requirements. How do I make this cashable? I hope they're not going to make me wager it?:confused:
 

brutaldeluxe

Full Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Location
UK
Yes just got this e mail myself. Took them long enough but at least they have done the proper thing in the end and sorted it fairly, well done Mansion(at last). Again props go to this site otherwise I would never have known about it.
 

homerj

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
england
The theoretical affect is calculated to be an additional
advantage to the house of no greater than 1.3% dependant upon player strategy.


do we agree with this figure of 1.3% ? i seem to recall someone quoting it was more than 2%...
 

ternur

The sky decorated in a spectrum of dreams
CAG
mm3
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Location
Finland
I played it through once. After that it was fully cashable.


Got it too, but the money has been added as playable bonus, with 0 playthrough requirements. How do I make this cashable? I hope they're not going to make me wager it?:confused:
 

RaiseThese

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Location
around
Just got my email.

The settlement was made as I was hoping for and truly did expect from them(Although it took awhile)

Turnur's post seems to indicate that they may have refunded all players involved and not just those who complained. Not confirmed in whole, just going by what he said.
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
Fairly?

Are you on crack?

They advertised a 98.2534% payout game, but instead offered a 95.2642% game.

Fair enough, maybe a mistake.

But then they claim that

"The theoretical affect is calculated to be an additional
advantage to the house of no greater than 1.3% dependant upon player strategy. "

This is a load of crap. 98.2534 - 95.2642 = 2.9892%, or 3% near as damnit.

So they ripped people off for 3% of every dollar they wagered, but to make amends:

"we have deposited into their MANSION account a Casino Bonus payment equal to two percent (2%) of their handle on Multi-line Video Poker during the period in question. "

And as BONUS payment, that you have to wager, rather than withdrawable cash?

What kind of bonus is it getting paid 2% of what you wagered when you were short changed 3%.

So in other words they have made off with 1% of every dollar wagered. This will be thousands of dollars in illicit earnings.

It's fine to screw up, but screwing up when you're supposed to be making amends is really really stupid.

And by the way, yes the 98.2534% and 95.2642% figures are correct.

If you look at their site, the paytable is normal 9/6 jacks or better, except that they pay 20 coins for a four of a kind, and 40 coins for a straight flush.

This is the same paytable as Cryptologic according to renowned gambling expert Michael Shackleford at wizardofodds.com, and also confirmed by winpoker.

The broken game where discards came back is at wizardofodds.com except that that game gives a bonus when you draw the card you discarded

It is exactly the same paytable, and it says quite clearly that the return without the bonus is 95.264%.

Mansion have made a bad screw up much worse.

Oops.

Next time they might try hiring people who actually understand gambling to do their calculations for them.
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
btw, for what it's worth, Mansion have the worst game of video poker I have ever seen

All American
RF 800 coins
SF 200 coins
4oak 30 coins
FH 8 coins
Flush 8 coins
Straight 4 coins
Three of a kind 3 coins
Two Pair 1 coin
JOB 1 coin

This pays back 92.08%:eek2:
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
And by the way, yes the 98.2534% and 95.2642% figures are correct.

If you look at their site, the paytable is normal 9/6 jacks or better, except that they pay 20 coins for a four of a kind, and 40 coins for a straight flush.

This is the same paytable as Cryptologic according to renowned gambling expert Michael Shackleford at wizardofodds.com/cryptologic - The Wizard of Odds[/url], and also confirmed by winpoker.

The broken game where discards came back is at wizardofodds.com/videopoker/tables/bonusvideopoker.html except that that game gives a bonus when you draw the card you discarded

It is exactly the same paytable, and it says quite clearly that the return without the bonus is 95.264%.
The situation is more complicated. 95.264% is the return from line pays assuming optimal strategy for bonus video poker is followed, but a player at Mansion would be the strategy for normal video poker, which would be different. I cannot be bothered to calculate it, but if Mansion publish their expert's calculations, I am willing to check it.
 

jeremiahsjohnso

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Location
California
Regarding the odds, you may be jumping the gun a bit. Their explanation states "(t)he difference existed only in the Multi-Line versions of Video Poker and meant that under certain circumstances discarded cards would be recycled in approximately half of the hands dealt."

So their claim, as I understand it, is that only sometimes was the recycling in effect -- I take it that they used the frequency to derive the additional 1.3% HA.

That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, of course -- it would be nice to know what 'certain circumstances' caused the recycled discards, and why it was 'approximately half' rather than exactly half, zero, or one.

(I trust/hope that Mansion isn't just noting that approximately half of the actual deals from June 6 to July 27 resulted in recycled discards reappearing, and using that to claim that only half of the deals were affected. That's a clear error.)
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
The situation is more complicated. 95.264% is the return from line pays assuming optimal strategy for bonus video poker is followed, but a player at Mansion would be the strategy for normal video poker, which would be different. I cannot be bothered to calculate it, but if Mansion publish their expert's calculations, I am willing to check it.

The strategy giving 95.264% is here wizardofodds.com/videopoker/tables/bonusvideopoker.html

Because of the bonus, situations to watch out for are where there is a marginally better hand involving holding four cards, and a less good one holiding two cards - you might be encouraged to discard more cards.

Checking four to a flush/3 to a royal, the strategy with TQK, the lowest hand ranked above a 4 to a royal with two high cards is to hold the TQK. Checking with winpoker, this is indeed correct.

So there is no encouragement to hold 3 cards rather than 4 to get the bonus here - holding TQK is correct strategy

Checking 4 to a flush vs high pair, high pair is correct, so no cost here.

Next example is 9TJQ mixed suits, plus a pair of 9s or Ts.

Here correct strategy is 9TJQ for a return of 0.8085
But bonus poker says hold 99 or TT, for a return of 0.650

The same thing for 89TJ with a pair of 8s, 9s, or Ts
Correct strategy is 89TJ, for 0.74468 return
However, for Bonus poker, you hold the 8s/9s/Ts, for 0.650 return

For a T high outside straight, or lower, correct strategy gives 0.681, but holding pairs gives 0.650

Other wrong things:

suited JQ ranked above JQKA mixed: 0.59574 vs 0.53802
3 to a straight flush, spread five ranked below garbage. Cost = 0.4088 vs 0.3123
3 to a straight flush, spread four, ranked below JQ unsuited. Cost = 0.49028 vs 0.46538

So the differences are very small indeed. There is no way that these few strategy differences add up to 1.7% loss (the difference between what Mansion claim and what WoO says) - when the bonus on cryptologic bonus poker is only worth 3.2%, there is no way in hell that a few minor changes to strategy are (a) costing 1.7% off the return of the line pay, or (b) if they are costing 1.7% increasing the bonus pay by more than that one.

Mansion got it wrong.

Twice.
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
Regarding the odds, you may be jumping the gun a bit. Their explanation states "(t)he difference existed only in the Multi-Line versions of Video Poker and meant that under certain circumstances discarded cards would be recycled in approximately half of the hands dealt."

So their claim, as I understand it, is that only sometimes was the recycling in effect -- I take it that they used the frequency to derive the additional 1.3% HA.

That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, of course -- it would be nice to know what 'certain circumstances' caused the recycled discards, and why it was 'approximately half' rather than exactly half, zero, or one.

(I trust/hope that Mansion isn't just noting that approximately half of the actual deals from June 6 to July 27 resulted in recycled discards reappearing, and using that to claim that only half of the deals were affected. That's a clear error.)
Excellent points. I also find it hard to understand how it is possible that the discards were only recycled half of the time. The only explanation I have been able to come up with is that they must have hired English Harbour's programmers. :)

We also need to know whether there was a higher likelihood of the discards being recycled when it was more to the casino's advantage. If Mansion want to come clean, they need to publish their calculations.
 

ternur

The sky decorated in a spectrum of dreams
CAG
mm3
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Location
Finland
In my case, yes. I posted a personal comment, about my situation. The whole situation had a marginal effect for me.

And no, I'm not on crack. Again, I don't share your passion for the issue.

Fairly?

Are you on crack?
 
Last edited:

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
Excellent points. I also find it hard to understand how it is possible that the discards were only recycled half of the time. The only explanation I have been able to come up with is that they must have hired English Harbour's programmers. :)

We also need to know whether there was a higher likelihood of the discards being recycled when it was more to the casino's advantage. If Mansion want to come clean, they need to publish their calculations.

You are quite right. It's easy to see how they could recycle cards *all* the time, just by using a new deck. But only part of the time? Very unlikely
 

henryVIII

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Location
UK
Unbelievable. Another casino caught with cheating software.

And just like English Harbour they seem very reluctant to actually speak about the actual details of their supposed defence.

Sadly, it seems both English harbour and Mansion - even after being caught - still want to make a profit over the period (Mansion for the 3%-2% calculation and English harbour for the time they were most likely cheating before April).

BTW ... who are/were mansions auditors??
 

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