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Bonus clearing techniques, need some advice.

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by stanny, Feb 25, 2007.

    Feb 25, 2007
  1. stanny

    stanny Dormant account

    Occupation:
    IT specialist
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur
    Hi all,

    I am new to the world of online casino bonuses and I was just wondering what kind of techniques do you guys use to clear a bonus?

    Let's assume it's 100% up to $100 and they don't allow a full bankroll bet. The wager requirements would be 30x the bonus received and follows the standard % of games towards wagering requirement (slots 100%, casino war 25%, blackjack 5%, etc) so obviously flat betting blackjack won't clear the bonus with a positive expectation. So what kind of techniques do you use to clear bonuses while still maintaining a positive EV? It would be great if you can give two examples, one for the casinos which require you to play-through before any withdrawals and one that doesn't.

    Regards,
    Stan
     
  2. Feb 25, 2007
  3. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    anti-martingale. press your bets when you win and back off when you lose. if you can get five wins in a row and make more than 50 bucks or whatever, "cash" that win and start low again and then you'll have a cushion for everytime you lose a hand and have to begin the cycle anew. this way you clear a lot of wr with minimal hits to your stack since the wr will be massive.

    i'm not going to endorse this betting system, nor have i really tried it, but given the obstacle in question of fully clearing a wr and given that flat-betting expects to lose money over the playthrough, it seems only logical to put more on the table when you're ahead and conserve when you're losing money. try to maintain the original balance and if you get some good runs, bank them and stay ahead of the game.

    there's no sure way to win, but does anyone agree that this strategy might be useful for this player's scenario?

    edit: and if you can withdraw without meeting the wr (and have any semblance of an adequate bankroll to speak of), then just sticky it up and bet half your balance every hand until you are broke or have a nice win (bearing in mind the bonus funds would be forfeited). repeat this at four or five other casinos to cover any losses, and with luck you'll have a tidy profit. (this is how real gamblers do it, cowboy up)

    another edit for extra credit: you say the "standard" % contribution to wr of certain games. there are quite a few places who offer 100% to $100 and similar bonuses with 15xb to 50x(b+d) and all games count 100% (intercasino offers it at 30xb for bj, 18x for table games, and does this every month). so for bj: your microgaming casino with its 5% contribution (or play 20x as much) gives 20x30x100= 60000 wr (table games not much better at 25% or 4x30x100= 12000, at a much higher house edge than bj). inter's 30xb for bj 100% is 30x100= 3000. even a place offering 50x(b+d), you still have 50x200= 10000, one sixth of the requirement for the bonus of which you speak in your post. my best advice to you is to go play some better cashables until you have enough money to make the mg clearplay bonuses lucrative using the sticky strategy.

    i won't be a huge name dropper but beating bonuses or casino bonus pages give good leads on the best offers to take up.

    and one more edit for the A+: i see you're from malaysia. i just saw today in the terms and conditions of a playtech casino, that malaysians face certain restrictions with respect to bonus. so i advise you to read carefully wherever you consider playing. good luck!

    quality control: was this advice of use to you? if not, request cleanup of article. if yes, reply with praise and toss a thanks. have a nice day!
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2007
    2 people like this.
  4. Feb 26, 2007
  5. Zoozie

    Zoozie Ueber Meister CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Software Developer
    Location:
    Denmark
    Like Happygobrokey, I assume you are talking about MG clearplay bonuses.With MG clearplay bonuses you can most often withdraw at any time
    and just forfeit the bonus. (check the T&C)

    I always withdraw if bankroll/bonus >=10 or even sometimes >=8 if I have a huge bankroll. The is the only good thing about the clearplay bonuses since the wagering is way too high unless you play slots.

    Zoozie
     
  6. Feb 26, 2007
  7. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    There are some tables in the Clearplay link of my signature, showing the average gain with various strategies.

    I'd recommend choosing a high variance strategy such that you will either win big or bust before wagering enough for the house edge to make a large cut into your average gain. For example, you could make large bets on a favorite slot game until you either bust or reach a target gain. Alternatively, you could play a negligible house edge game like classic BJ... again continuing until you either bust or reach a target gain. If you like video poker, 3-card poker, or some other game; you could play that instead. There are countless alternatives.

    If you win big and can cash out, then do so. If you must play through the bonus after winning big, then choose a low variance strategy, such that you are likely to complete the wagering. With the weighting you listed, you likely have the best chance of completing wagering on the game American Roulette (assuming American Roulette is 100% and French Roulette is 25%). With typical game weighting, French Roulette is a better choice than American.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Feb 26, 2007
  9. stanny

    stanny Dormant account

    Occupation:
    IT specialist
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur
    When you guys say bet big until I hit a nice target, how big is big? And what would be a nice target? Can you provide some specific examples? Say 100% up to $100, so I have $200. Can I flat bet $25 a hand on classic BJ until I reach $400? Would that be a nice sized bet and a nice sized target? What kind of bet and target do you set usually?

    Also for clearing wagering requirements if before any withdrawal, you need to play through, I understand that french roulette would be the best. But what kind of bet techniques do you use? Would really help alot if you can be specific with the actual ammount to bet and on what.

    Thanks alot :)
     
  10. Feb 26, 2007
  11. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    bet more than $25/hand with $200 in chips to start. bet 50-100, and if you win it, bet 100-200, and keep pressing. you want to reach your target in the fewest hands possible since flatbetting 25 would require 8 overall losses to bust but take 12 overall wins to get up to 500. you are much more likely to win 4 half-your-balance bets overall then try to build it up by 25 at a time. this is why these bonuses really put your balls to the wall and you should really have enough excess gambling money that losing your deposit won't affect you for more than a second. take whatever big win you're willing to play for. some will stop when they can cash out three times their deposit, other won't stop before ten times d, or they just press to a certain total like $1000 or $1500. but of course you are going to miss the target more often than you hit it, and the higher your target, the more you risk, since you're betting a large chunk (25-50%) of your stack on each hand using this strategy. i would have enough bankroll to do at least four of this style bonus so you can multiply your chances of cashing out.

    as for doing french to grind out a bonus, bet the minimum on either red or black, set autoplay for the required number of spins to meet wr (or the max number of spins if there's a lot of play left), then go have some sex, make a sandwich, open up another casino or poker client, browse the meister forum, exercise, watch tv, read a book, play video games, go shopping (maybe browse for something to buy with your win), drive out to the beach, call your mother, go to the library, return some videos, go have a pint at the pub, download music, research your next casino, and after you do all that, reset the spins if there's wr left, if not then organize the withdrawal and crack a celebratory brewskie.

    whatever you do, don't bet more than the minimum, since that will only make it twice as hard to keep your balance intact. ideally you are trying to come out even money playing french this way, so a larger bet would just help you to lose more quickly while offering little to gain. since it ain't you spinning the wheel or placing the chips, who cares if you spin 4500 or 9000 times. you minimize variance doing a min bet with more spins.

    edit: very cool random fact! apart from antarctica, ireland is the only place with no snakes that are dangerous to humans... wild eh?
     
  12. Feb 26, 2007
  13. EasyRhino

    EasyRhino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Analyst
    Location:
    San Diego
    Personally, for clearplay or sticky bonuses, I bet the largest amount I can as long as it doesn't cripple betting options. For blackjack, this is usually a half-bankroll bet.

    For instance, deposit $100, get a $100 bonus. Starting chipcount is $200. I'll play a $100 hand of blackjack (preferably a single deck kind with a low edge that only allows splitting once). The half-bet is for in case I have to split or double. I usually just stick with this bet amount if I win a few hands.

    Set a target for your high-risk wagering relative to your starting chipcount. For a starting point of $200, this should be at least $400. Or you could go with $600 or $800. However, there is a large element of risk here, since you will be losing everything between 50% and 75% of the time. The rule of thumb is you want a few thousand dollars before you max out the aggression with 4x targets.

    In casinos with crappy weighting requirements, I just request a withdrawal after I reach the target, if it's allowed.

    And as aka already mentioned, if you are playing at a place that gives 50% or 66% weighting to french roulette, you can play it for a very minor theoretical profit, so I'll usually do that with the min bet method.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Feb 26, 2007
  15. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Just switch between different games, trying to quit ahead on each one!
    (Works for me :cool: )

    Personally I think grinding out a WR with low-risk BJ or Roulette to end up with a tiny fraction of the bonus money is rather sad really.
    You might just as well deposit without a bonus, try to increase your bankroll by 15-20% & quit.
    Much easier & less stressful! ;)
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Feb 26, 2007
  17. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    you don't mean to say you think turning 100 into 120 is easier than making 200 into 120?

    mike skinner aka the streets once rapped "in spread betting it's easy to make a small fortune, just start with a big fortune and lose till it's a small fortune," doesn't quite apply but it came to mind!

    on the good starting out bonuses one usually stands to retain 80-95% of the bonus grinding min bets at optimal strategy on decent games like pontoon or other liberal bj formats.
     
  18. Feb 26, 2007
  19. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    If the Clearplay bonus is cashed out early (without completing the first chunk of the playthrough), then the average gain is bonus * risk of bust - average wagering * house edge. Classic BJ has a low enough house edge (0.09% with optimal strategy), that average wagering * house edge is roughly the same with $25 bets or larger bets of up to half bank roll. The difference is with $25 bets, you'll likely play many hands. While with half-bankroll bets, you'll quickly bust or make your target gain. I'd recommend larger bets with baccarat, roulette, pai gow, or just about any other lower variance game. But with Classic BJ, bet size makes little difference.

    Target gain depends on your risk tolerance. If you attempt to double your bankroll, then if average wagering * house edge is negligible, you'll fail a little more than half of the time and your average gain will be about half of the bonus. If you attempt to triple your bankroll, you'll fail a little more than 2/3 of the time, and your average gain will be about 2/3 of the bonus . If you can handle busting and losing your deposit most of the time, then a higher target is the way to go. If you'd rather win most of the time, then a lower target and lower average gain is the way to go.

    Personally, my target depends on the bonus and my mood. If I am risking a large portion of my own funds with a 50% offer on a $200 deposit or similar, my target will be low, perhaps only 1.5x initial bankroll. If I am risking little of my own funds with a 200% offer on a $50 deposit or similar, my target will be high, perhaps 4x initial bankroll or more. There are times I've gone as high as >10x initial bankroll and successfully cashed out with an incredible gain. If I have busted with a lot of bonuses recently, I tend to set a lower target. If I have cashed out a lot of bonuses recently, I tend to set a higher target.

    I bet on a 1:1 pay option (red, black, 1-18, 19-36, odd, or even), then turn on autoplay and quick spin. Note that French Roulette only returns half your bet when 0 is hit on outside bets (not on numbered bets).
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Feb 26, 2007
  21. DiePolizeiistda

    DiePolizeiistda Dormant account

    The best explanation I encountered so far for MG bonus clearance techniques I found on the website of beatingbonuses.com. It explains the technique in detail taking into account the different rules of MG casino groups.
     
  22. Feb 27, 2007
  23. brutaldeluxe

    brutaldeluxe Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Other
    Location:
    UK
    Remember it doesn't matter how you stake it whether it be large or small or whatever, you're not gonna turn negative EV into positive EV using fancy staking.
     
  24. Feb 27, 2007
  25. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    It's not turning positive to negative. You are using an oversimplified way of estimating EV .

    Consider a $100 100% bonus with a 30xB wagering requirement played on double-zero roulette. If you play through with the minimum bet size and minimum variance, then the expected gain/loss is approximately Bonus - Wagering * House Edge = $100 - $100*30*2/38 = -$58... a $58 loss

    Now consider hypothetically (hypothetical because this bet exceeds max table limits, among other reasons) that before playing through the bonus, you bet all $200 on the single number 32 red. If you win the $200 bet, your balance increases to $7400. After losing an average of $147 over the remaining 28xB wagering, the net gain is $7400 - $147 - $100 = $7153. If you lose the $200 bet, you only lose $100 (the other $100 of the bet is the bonus). So with this strategy, the average gain is 1/38 * (+$7153) + 37/38 * (-$100) = +$91

    This betting strategy changed the EV from -$58 to +$91. The change occurs because of the rules for bonus bets. You can bet money you don't have, and you don't have to pay losses on these bets if you bust (only pay losses on deposit bets, not bonus bets). If you didn't receive the bonus until after completing wagering and could not make bonus bets, then the EV would remain at -$58.
     
  26. Feb 27, 2007
  27. stanny

    stanny Dormant account

    Occupation:
    IT specialist
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur
    Great! I got the whole idea now. I think I'm going to start small and steady by just trying to double my bankroll for now so my average gain would be about half my bonuses.

    One thing though, is there a need for coverplay? I mean, I come to their casino and bet two bets and withdraw right away, will they ban me? Or not even pay me? Should I throw like $10 away to slots or something? Need some insight on this.

    Thanks alot.
     
  28. Feb 27, 2007
  29. EasyRhino

    EasyRhino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Analyst
    Location:
    San Diego
    I haven't used coverplay at most places. And generally it's not a problem. However, if I exceed a max cashout amount at some RTGs, I'll just gamble randomly until my balance drops down to the max value before requesting a cashout.

    At 49er casino specifically, I was bonus-restricted after cashing out on two bonuses. It seems that there specifically, you need to play MORE than the WR when clearing bonuses. Not sure how much more. They did send me a warning before unbonusing me.

    And at the Crystal Palace group, they'll ban you after your first cashout. Highly not recommended.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Feb 27, 2007
  31. brutaldeluxe

    brutaldeluxe Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Other
    Location:
    UK
    Yes I'm quite well aware of that aka. Betting your entire balance is usually used when you are doing sticky bonuses that are removed when you make a cashout, although it doesn't have to only be used for these of course. There's no need for you to explain I'm well educated in maths believe me. The size of bets do not affect your EV though, it only increases or decreases your variance, as will know obviously. This is the kind of thing that seemed to be getting discussed in this thread. It was also kind of suggesting "systems" etc which obviously make no difference. If you increase your bet size so that you are betting bonus money then yes of course this affects things.
    I am agreeing with you but you're telling me things I already know.

    I certainly wouldn't fancy doing bonuses by sticking the lot on one roulette number. You might never make a cashout in your entire life ! (assuming you were only doing reputable casinos) Of course any cashouts you made would be likely to be rather large. Actually how about putting the whole lot on one spin on a slot machine.......I have a friend who did a few sticky bonuses like that. Obviously it was all over rather quickly but he did hit the feature on one of them but it only ended up paying about 7x his bet I think which is a little disappointing really.


    In regards to the original posters question my advice would be to do all the bonuses with far better terms and conditions first, if you haven't already.
    Terms that only allow 5% blackjack/videopoker etc are pretty poor. No doubt someone has compiled a list somewhere of the best casinos to try.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Feb 27, 2007
  33. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    When playing with typical bonuses, bet size does affect EV. The effect won't be large unless two conditions are met:
    1. A large portion of the bonus is expected to be lost during wagering (or the bonus is sticky)
    2. Bet size is large enough that there is a decent chance of busting early on in the wagering.

    Hardly anyone would. I stated that it was a hypothetical example, which would be impossible in a typical Microgaming casino (bet exceeds single number table limits).

    Or you could not complete wagering on blackjack/videopoker, or even not complete wagering at all (allowed with most Clearplay bonuses). Some of the Clearplay bonuses with ~5% BJ/VP are excellent. The 400% and 450% bonuses at Lucky Nugget and All Jackpots come to mind.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2007
  34. Feb 27, 2007
  35. brutaldeluxe

    brutaldeluxe Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Other
    Location:
    UK
    Quite a few bonus give you a reward upon completion of X amount of action. Club on the park for example. Bet size cannot affect the EV there as you are never wagering with bonus money. That is a typical bonus.

    Perhaps I should have worded my inital statement slightly different but I didn't realise people were gonna be quite so nit picky with it.
    If you quadruple your staking what affect is that gonna have ? Not alot if it's from $1 to $4 but different story if it's alot higher. I said large and small.....they're relative terms, large/small compared to what.....there's large and small and there's shit or bust. You seem to be aiming more at the shit or bust aspect here.

    The slots example is far from hypothetical though and it's basically the same thing although you can't really do the maths quite as easily with it so it's not as good for an example. Hypothetically if there was no table limit your best EV would be to whack the whole lot on one hand/spin and then double it up every time it won till you met the playthrough. Variance obviously ridiculous to the point of probably never cashing out but if you did it would be for zillions assuming usual playthrough. Hypothetical isn't much use though, we need real methods !

    Given the choice I would much rather have bonuses that allow blackjack/video poker and are 10-30 times bonus or bonus+deposit.
    I would certainly do those before ones which only count blackjack as 5% or
    playing slots at 5%+ house edge plus huge variance.
     
  36. Feb 27, 2007
  37. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    I wrote "with typical bonuses." Yes, there are some bonuses that are given after completing wagering, but those bonuses had not been discussed so far in this thread. When playing typical bonuses, bet size affects EV.

    If the initial statement you are referring to is, "Remember it doesn't matter how you stake it whether it be large or small or whatever, you're not gonna turn negative EV into positive EV using fancy staking.", then you definitely should have worded it differently. As in the examples we have been discussing throughout this thread, it is not true.

    Hypothetical examples are useful to show a point, which was my purpose. We had already discussed actual strategies earlier in the thread. There is little point in repeating them over and over.

    Many do not share your opinion. I think most players would prefer a 400% Clearplay bonus, in which all games are allowed and winnings can be cashed out without completing a wagering requirement, to a 30x(B+D) required playthrough on blackjack/video poker.
     
  38. Feb 28, 2007
  39. brutaldeluxe

    brutaldeluxe Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Other
    Location:
    UK
    It depends if you are playing for fun or for profit really I guess, or a bit of both. Personally I'm not 100% convinced about alot of the casinos that are doing the clear play bonuses even though some of them are on the accredited list. They're still seems to be an awful lot of problems coming up which involve them. I'm sure many of them are fine but I really cannot be bothered with even the smallest hassle anymore. Compare this to say most of the decent cryptos, or 32 Red or ladbrokes and you get far fewer problems. Of course I would never ever complain about 32 Red :D
     

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