Bonus -- advantage play -- etc.

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
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Jan 18, 2007
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USA
I'd like to open a discussion about advantage play, bonuses, etc. that isn't directly related to a complaint thread. I have mixed feelings and thoughts about this issue and would appreciate anybody's and everybody's input.

Here's a thought or two.

If I can master the legalese of a bonus system and use it to my advantage, okay, but I won't cry foul if I miss something.

If I can master card counting and use it to my advantage, okay, and I won't cry foul if I skip a beat.

I guess what I'm saying is that if i use bonuses as an advantage player I am in the same league as if i were counting cards and better be as well prepared.

This is the tip of the iceberg. Any thoughts?
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
Counting cards online is useless due to the fact that the cards are "shuffled" after each hand....

Any reputable casino will pay you your winnings the first time, then will probably deny you any further bonuses...Rogues will simply not pay you..simple as that :)

There's no such thing as bonus "abuse", as long as the casino's T&C's are followed to the letter...

Of course everyone can be classified as a bonus "seeker"...Bonuses are what sets casinos apart..
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
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Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
Counting cards online is useless due to the fact that the cards are "shuffled" after each hand....

Any reputable casino will pay you your winnings the first time, then will probably deny you any further bonuses...Rogues will simply not pay you..simple as that :)

There's no such thing as bonus "abuse", as long as the casino's T&C's are followed to the letter...

Of course everyone can be classified as a bonus "seeker"...Bonuses are what sets casinos apart..
Makes perfect sense, WB.

Of course I was referring to counting cards as advantage play and trying to relate it to bonus 'advantage' play. Maybe I complicate things too much, and when this thread is fleshed out it will probably boil down to what you have just said.

It's a good position for casinos and players, but is ideal and black and white. You've been around here a long time so you've seen the shades of gray go through the crucible to become this black and white.

I'm struggling personally, for my own play, with the whole question (which I probably haven't phrased well, but you've read my posts? so you know.)

This could well become a volatile thread, but controversy is good and I'd rather try to keep my issues focused than spew all over the forum like I have in the past.

I'll rephrase it again and again until I understand it, or dry up and blow away.

Thanks for the quick response.
 

happygobrokey

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Jul 24, 2006
Location
canada
card counters get tossed from casinos. so do alleged "abusers" of online casino bonuses.

the difference is, the casino offered you the advantage by giving a profitable bonus, so it is not your fault you're playing at a positive expectation.

so the two imo are not entirely the same. but i don't think you are speaking to the legitimacy of either type of play. perhaps you are saying that one must tread very lightly to be able to get away with either practice?
 

EasyRhino

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Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Location
San Diego
Just tonight, I got backed off from a local casino for card counting. (actually, it was pretty crazy, they spotted me before I even could place a bet!). But anyway, they caught me fair and square, so them's the breaks.

And I've had online casinos prohibit me from using bonuses. That's their perogative. I've only had funds confiscated at one place, and that was one of the Crystal Palace casinos (I really should have known better). I might have an issue with one of the Virtual Group casinos right now, but I'm still working on it.

Of course, getting 86'd from either place is not the desired income. And if I was smoother about it, I'd still be allowed to play at more joints. Get burned out of enough places, and you're a dinosaur.
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
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MERS
Just tonight, I got backed off from a local casino for card counting.
ER, does Max Rubin still do the promo relations for Barona(sp) because he welcomes counters with good reasons. Using your brain is not illegal yet the public perceives counting as entirely illegal. Have you read Beat The Players by Vegas attorney Bob Nersesian who has fought back against the abuse of casino patrons. Yes, a casino can refuse service to anyone but the backrooming et al that goes on is a 100% violation of your constitutional rights although the Travel Channel implies time and time again to the public counting is illegal but abuse of a patron is acceptable. Until one walks in the shoes of an abused patron, they will never understand, period..........Bob, a couple years ago filed suit against the Griffin (mug shot) Book that 99% of casinos subscribed to. Bob's clients won the law suit with judgements and now the Griffin Book is history.

For full disclosure,I did retain the services of Bob Nersesian pursuant to several incidents that occured at the Venetian in 2005.
 
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rwaltham

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Apr 18, 2007
Location
lawrence ma
in my opinion the bonuses are for suckers .i was getting a 400% bonus with 30x playthru out of 6 100 $ deposits i met the requirement once cashedout 500 not realizing the bonus is noncashable so after 30 plus hrs of play i havent recieved the payout yet but im expecting 90$ after they take the 400 $ bonus and the 10$ echeck fee.i finaly came to my senses started taking no bonus so if i hit early the winnings are mine to withdraw im not locked into some ridiculous playthrough number. since i stopped taking bonuses ive turned 600 into 1500 playing slots at 1$ a spin
 

Vesuvio

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Apr 23, 2004
Location
UK
Lojo, it's pretty simple.

If a player meets the clear terms of a bonus - wager x amount on such and such a game - they should always be paid. The player is free to wager in any way he wishes.

Some casinos want to invent a term, "bonus abuse", to cover play which breaks no terms but, "we don't like" (i.e. it might let the player win).

If they use the term to lock players out of further play at the casino after paying a withdrawal, that's fine.

If they try to use the term to get out of paying winnings, they're rogue.

Of course the casinos want to try and muddy the waters to boost their profits, but there's no reason for us to go along with them ;)
 

Mike031

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
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Feb 13, 2007
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not loserland *lol*
in my opinion the bonuses are for suckers .ii finaly came to my senses started taking no bonus so if i hit early the winnings are mine to withdraw im not locked into some ridiculous playthrough number.
I also don't take any "sticky" bonuses, but there are enough casinos, which give you "cashable" bonuses, so maybe you should take one of this? ;)

Btw, on the most Microgaming Casinos you can withdraw your Cash-Balance on every time, so you must not fullfill the Wagering Requirement before you can cash-out your wins and that's really fair!

Here is an example for you:
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jetset

RIP Brian
CAG
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Feb 22, 2001
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Earth
I agree with Winbig (and Vesuvio above who says pretty much the same thing in greater depth) when he says:

Quote: There's no such thing as bonus "abuse", as long as the casino's T&C's are followed to the letter...Unquote

Think of it as a contract - there's an offer (from the casino) followed by acceptance (the player wagering and his business being accepted by the casino) and then completion (the player complying with the T&Cs and then the casino paying him timeously)

Too many casinos lose sight of these straightforward fundamentals, take an emotional "the player should stay with us after the promo out of loyalty" view...or try to use this "bonus abuse" BS to rectify errors or ommissions on the part of their managers or staff.
 

EasyRhino

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San Diego
ER, does Max Rubin still do the promo relations for Barona(sp) because he welcomes counters with good reasons.
I haven't seen Max involved in any promos, I get the impression that he's not as involved as he was in the casino's early days (I wasn't ever there in the early days, though). They still have the Blackjack Hall of Fame (dedicated to create card counters and cheating technology) on display near the entrance. It's not all puppies and roses for players though, just recently I'm spotted a pit critter on the phone to upstairs while looking in my direction with a grim expression, it felt like "the call".

I'm pretty spooked about burning myself out of all my local joints right now. Although my two career backoffs have both been very civil.

For full disclosure,I did retain the services of Bob Nersesian pursuant to several incidents that occured at the Venetian in 2005.
Wow, is (was) the Venetian sweaty?

in my opinion the bonuses are for suckers .i was getting a 400% bonus with 30x
Yes, it's those types of bonuses that are murder on the recreational player (at least one who wants a chance to cash out). Straight flat-betting of the bonus will very likely result in losses greater than whatever your deposit was. If you want to make money on them, you have to play them in a very counter-intuitive way, very aggressively until you get to a high balance, and then grind it out will smaller bets. Who actually gambles like this?

But to be honest, figuring out how the attack ridiculously complicated bonii is the most fun part of bonus-hustling to me. Figuring out the optimum game, deposit, and bet size can sometimes take longer than the play itself (especially if you bust out quick).
 

oldtrvlagt

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Mar 31, 2007
Location
Iowa
Here is a question...you sign up with one casino and decide I'll play the free spins and see what happens. You lose, you try another in the "group" and you win a little. You play until your eyes are bleary and still cashout a small amount. You try a different one in the "group" (all the while using the same email, following the rules, etc., etc.). You are acruing loyalty points and just for joining this casino gives you $10 (which is nothing), you lose and decide I'll go to casino #4 on the list and see if I can do better over there. You deposit and they give you loyalty points for signing up (BUT, you did NOT ask for them), they just automatically give them to you. You play agin until your brain is fried and by gosh on that $.90 spin on Thunderstruck you hit $450 so now you are ahead, and you cashout. Is it my fault I won? No, I don't think so. I got lucky..but now I have had my "loyalty" points suspended because somehow in their warped logic I have abused bonuses. I don't like bonuses..used to but got tired of playing 5 million spins in RTG casinos to cashout $500. Sorry this is so long but I'm venting and the bonuses should go where the sun doesn't shine.:D
 

Mike031

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
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Feb 13, 2007
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not loserland *lol*
got tired of playing 5 million spins in RTG casinos to cashout $500.
On which RTGs did you play and with which bet?

Okay, with a deposit of $ 20.- and a bet size of only $ 0,20.- it's very logical, that you can't cashout $ 500.-, expect you win a Jackpot, than it's certainly possible ;)
 

oldtrvlagt

Dormant account
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Mar 31, 2007
Location
Iowa
$1.00 a spin, Prism, Club Player and Cirrus. Been paid in the past by all (sometimes a little coaxing, nagging,etc. you get the picture..someone was on vacation, it was a holiday, the dog died,etc.) 10x max cashout on deposit amount so after playthrough (hours and hours) I've been lucky. Haven't won anything in a year and gave them all up about 6 months ago after hitting 5 Achilles in a row ($500 win) getting up to $950 and never being able to cashout a dime.:eek:
 

Mike031

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Location
not loserland *lol*
Maybe you should try more seriously RTGs? ;)

Cirrus is actually not an accredited casino, as i know :rolleyes:

But certainly we all must have enough luck, because i could say the same thing about MG Casinos.

The last days i'd never won anything on them, i played on different MG Casinos and on everyone i lost my € 100.- within 5-10 minutes with a € 1.- bet and between 200-250 spins without any bonus round, so i must say, that i'd never luck in this one.

But at the other side, i had 1 week before great luck with MG Casinos, because i deposited on 5 different Casinos only € 50.- and i'd won on every one more then 2x - 5x the deposit, so it was a lucky day for me :)
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
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Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
card counters get tossed from casinos. so do alleged "abusers" of online casino bonuses.

the difference is, the casino offered you the advantage by giving a profitable bonus, so it is not your fault you're playing at a positive expectation.

so the two imo are not entirely the same. but i don't think you are speaking to the legitimacy of either type of play. perhaps you are saying that one must tread very lightly to be able to get away with either practice?
Yeah, i guess a bonus artist would have to tread lightly, but i also meant that if I'm going to use bonus play as a strategy I better know the terms and conditions as well as counter knows his numbers, or I have no bitch when things don't work out for me.

A casino is never going to go broke from card counting and probably never from bonus chasing either.
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
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Jan 18, 2007
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USA
....

Of course, getting 86'd from either place is not the desired income. And if I was smoother about it, I'd still be allowed to play at more joints. Get burned out of enough places, and you're a dinosaur.
Desired income, outcome :lolup:

I don't have the balls for counting cards, I've read the stories about a downtown joint and 'Stanford Wong's' interview in the
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not to mention stories I've heard. I'd probably tap my fingers or mumble the numbers and get caught anyway:eek2:

To me, card counting is different than 'syndicated' bonus hustling. It's probably as old as the game.
I'm not trying to pass any moral judgement on bonus hustling, but I do think there are circumstances when it just isn't right, and I can see where a casino who gets a lot of it could see it as an orchestrated attack.

I'm trying to recall my motivations when I used quite a few bonuses.... nope, I didn't do it to extend my fun time, I did it to make money. Say with tombraider i could rarely hit the free spins at $3.75 a throw on my budegeted weekly bankroll, but when I started taking 100% and better sign up bonuses I usually could, so I did.

I've never been burned by a casino so my perception might be different than someone who has been. I've even been paid when I hit almost a grand on a no-deposit bonus, just lucky sometimes i guess.
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
in my opinion the bonuses are for suckers .i was getting a 400% bonus with 30x playthru out of 6 100 $ deposits i met the requirement once cashedout 500 not realizing the bonus is noncashable so after 30 plus hrs of play i havent recieved the payout yet but im expecting 90$ after they take the 400 $ bonus and the 10$ echeck fee.i finaly came to my senses started taking no bonus so if i hit early the winnings are mine to withdraw im not locked into some ridiculous playthrough number. since i stopped taking bonuses ive turned 600 into 1500 playing slots at 1$ a spin

I'm with ya. For the most part I don't touch them anymore. There is one casino I'm playing at with large bonuses and max cashouts, but I'm only dabbling minimum deposits for now. If I make a crushing win in the next deposit or two I'll stop using coupons altogether there.

I'll probably do one more in each good group that allows multiples across the group, because the terms are mostly good, and easy to undersand, but mostly I just want to lay my money down and win or lose... okay I just want to win:D
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
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Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
$1.00 a spin, Prism, Club Player and Cirrus. Been paid in the past by all (sometimes a little coaxing, nagging,etc. you get the picture..someone was on vacation, it was a holiday, the dog died,etc.) 10x max cashout on deposit amount so after playthrough (hours and hours) I've been lucky. Haven't won anything in a year and gave them all up about 6 months ago after hitting 5 Achilles in a row ($500 win) getting up to $950 and never being able to cashout a dime.:eek:
Why weren't you able to cash out?
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
A casino is never going to go broke from card counting and probably never from bonus chasing either.
Exactly, bonus abuse(fraud may be a different issue but in most cases it is simply poor operations management) as well as B&M casino abuse of not only advantage players but casino patron winners((99.9% fall into the other category and thus have no idea of what the first line in Nersesian's book means as it reads "Nevada hates you")) also is nothing more than 100% mistreatment of players/patrons. At least the Nevada Supreme Courts have commenced recognizing a patrons constitutional rights in the last few years. Who recognizes an online player's rights?????

Stanford is very familiar with Mr.Nersesian and can probably state my point in a better fashion
 
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