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Bonus Abuser Blacklist (Microgaming)

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Mousey, Nov 25, 2008.

    Nov 25, 2008
  1. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    For those who may have missed it, this is from Max's warning post HERE

    OK... I'm pissed off now. I've had it!

    Bonus 'abusers' equated with fraudsters is a crock of bull. The casinos know it, we know it, Casinomeister knows it -- especially when the player abides by the casinos WR and T&C. Pay the player, then casinos can cut them off from bonuses or lock them out. This after the fact crap is just that -- crap! :puke:

    I'm still not happy with this 'blacklist' idea. Fraudsters, yes. Bonus 'abusers'? No! A player who plays by the casinos rules is not an abuser. And if a player is on that list... why do casinos give them bonuses??

    Sorry for the outburst... I'm so mad I'm sputtering ....
     
    18 people like this.
  2. Nov 25, 2008
  3. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Don't be sorry, this is serious stuff! And good on you for bringing it up!

    I hope you don't mind that I've tweaked your original thread title a bit. I thought it important that people read this in context -- that is, knowing it's MGS casinos -- as opposed to a general "o-ooo-o! there's a blacklist out there somewhere!" kind of thing.
     
    7 people like this.
  4. Nov 25, 2008
  5. pinsnpies

    pinsnpies Experienced Member PABnononaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Customer service advisor for BT
    Location:
    Bangor North Wales UK
    Really feel as if all this bonus abuse accusations is getting out of hand. Think i'll just stick to sportsbook betting.
     
  6. Nov 25, 2008
  7. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Are Microgaming themselves aware that this goes on? If not, they should be. As Max says, use it to prevent a bonus being awarded, but if it has been and the play is fair then tough. The player should be paid. If a casino chooses to entice with a bonus, they should be prepared for the problems this causes. It's not like it's an unknown quantity - everyone knows that bonuses are asking for trouble unless properly managed. You can't have your cake and eat it.
     
    4 people like this.
  8. Nov 25, 2008
  9. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    I haven't given them a heads up on it...yet.

    Here is the link to the actual page. I've never seen this before in an MGS powered casino. I'm a little surprised:

    #18 You must register/login in order to see the link.
    We contribute to and make use of a shared industry database of promotion abusers and fraudsters. Individuals known from this database will not be eligible for any promotional offers and the casino reserves the right to lock their account and refuse access to the casino.

    They lump fraudster and promotion "abuser" together in the same sentence. Looks like they slept through Online Casino Management 101. One excerpt here:
    http://www.casinomeister.com/newsletter/2006/9february2006.html

    Simply put, if the casino makes the offer - they need to be prepared to follow through with it. Advantage players are not fraudsters. And if the casino allows them to play, they are obligated to pay the player their winnings. Casino operators who have claimed that land based casinos in Vegas kick card counters to the curb (winnings confiscated) are in error. A couple of years ago the Nevada State court ruled that advantage players do not constitute fraud.

    Database or not, if the player met the terms and conditions of the promotion, then they need to be paid. This is not rocket science. If a casino is allowed to use subjective and vague terms such as "abuse" then anarchy will ensue.
     
    3 people like this.
  10. Nov 25, 2008
  11. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Oops! Did I just identify the casino? Sorry :oops:
     
    5 people like this.
  12. Nov 25, 2008
  13. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    FWIW I've updated the Warning as follows:

     
    2 people like this.
  14. Nov 25, 2008
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I found this out some time ago. The term has been around, but it is WELL hidden.

    The Microgaming database is run by the big processor Proc-Cyber, and is one of their products "Risk Sentinel" offered to their clients. It tracks a single players entire behaviour across ALL merchants who channel their processing through Proc Cyber, which is pretty much every MG casino (for non US players). It appears to run like Experian, and players have a "credit file" kind of thing, but for their playing habilts. UNLIKE Experian though, Proc Cyber say that players have NO RIGHT to see the data held about them NOR the right to have it checked for accuracy if they believe their has been a mistake.

    Proc Cyber, however, are based in the UK, which means that UK players at least CAN get hold of this "secret" data by serving notice to Proc Cyber under the Data Protection Act, which specifies a fee of no more than 10, and specifies a time limit for compliance.

    Given that MG casinos have been caught RED HANDED by Max DELIBERATELY misusing this service to "pad the bottom line", rather than for refusing promotions in the first place - this must put MG well into the inshore waters of Rogue Island.

    This makes it VERY LIKELY that the PLAYTECH variant does indeed exist, and that PLaytech (the company) has been LYING about it being a myth for the past couple of years.

    IF these casinos were PROPERLY regulated in a PROPER country, this kind of thing would land them in court.

    eCogra seems happy with this state of affairs, they have presided over this for quite a while, THEY ARE IMPLICATED - they must have known (it is, after all, their JOB to know), but decided this was quite OK.

    The current situation allows less reputable casinos to set traps for players by pulling them in with big bonuses, and then pulling this central database stunt if the win, and as Max says, take the money when they lose, and maybe offer another bonus on top.

    The first clause highlighted by Max is rather vague, it can be used to cover pretty much ANY style of play, and from some of the odd claims of "bonus abuse" that have cropped up recently, it seems there is something pretty murky going on even in the top end of the industry (Microgaming).

    Maybe, CM accredited casinos should be BANNED from using the "bonus abuse database" at the time of withdrawal, and if they use it, the filter MUST be applied BEFORE a promotion is offered to a player.

    A BIG part of the problem is caused by the SPAMMERS, often operating with the full knowledge of the casinos, who will allow it to go ahead because it is just so damn effective - however, it caused players to fall into traps, because the spammers deliberately set out to conceal things like terms and conditions through the use of fake casino landing pages that ONLY allow download & registration, where an incomplete set of rules is presented to the player.

    If these revelations, and the discussions about them, drive some casinos to the wall TOUGH LUCK - you deserved it:mad:
     
    7 people like this.
  16. Nov 25, 2008
  17. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    But I wouldn't jump to conclusions quite yet.

    I know that Proc Cyber runs players through a fraudster database. The database is not shared with the casino - only if a player pops up in the fraudster database will he be outed by Pro Cyber which notifies the casino. I remember a couple of incidents where fraudsters had been cleared by the casino for payouts, but got nailed by the cash processors - one was a Bellerock issue a couple of years ago that played out in the complaints section.

    I seriously doubt that the casinos share a database of "bonus abusers". I have a feeling it's smoke being blown up the "abusers" butt in order to scare him off - or to confiscate winnings.

    I'm guessing this will play out here as well.

    Bear in mind, I don't believe this casino is an eCOGRA certified casino. So they aren't part of this equation.
     
  18. Nov 25, 2008
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Seems to me the same smoke is being blown up MAX's butt, which triggered his initial general warning.

    This "makes use of a central database" term has been around for a while, and if this is simply smoke to be administered to someone's butt, perhaps the casino was unwise in administering it to Max's butt, as this has brought this issue up in the form of a general warning about Microgaming casinos.
    Microgaming now have another PR problem on their hands, adding to the current ones. MG so far seem to think hiding under the duvet till it all blows over is the best policy.

    The alternative to "tough luck" however, is there, simply be open, honest, and fair with dealings with ALL players, and salvage the broken bond of trust before it is too late.

    Max, seems to have based the warning on a specific case, where definitive evidence of the central database being used to identify mere "bonus abusers" was found, the casino admitted it directly to Max it seems.

    The description of "Risk Sentinel" I found showed it to be a product that went well beyond fraud detection, it was indeed able to track playing habits through patterns of deposits and withdrawals, and put together a web of associated assumptions based on these transactions. It could identify players who made only a single deposit at many new casinos, with little sign of repeat play. This could certainly be a flag for "potential bonus abuse", and could lead to a casino voiding winnings from a player's first deposit based on the past history of him hardly ever returning to play again at the same casino.

    Incidentally, you can log on to Proccyber yourself and gather your OWN transaction history, and get a taste of the data they have available.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Nov 25, 2008
  21. RobWin

    RobWin closed account

    Occupation:
    Who knows?
    Location:
    A Vault!
    No need to give them a heads up on this since they all have been using this for many many moons !! Don't know why you are surprised by it though, it has been mentioned several times over the past 10 years as other players had found out about it when it was already too late and the MG casino in question simply held their deposit and confiscated their winnings...

    At least now for the first time we have a Microgaming Casino "Golden Lounge" here that has actually admitted to using this "shared industry database" and have even actually admitted it in black & white where as long as I can remember no other MG Casino has ever come out and outright admitted to this...

    Do any of you guys remember the MG casino called "Crazy Horse" that was a MG powered casino about 10 years ago...they later switched over to RTG or Playtech software one, can't remember exactly...well this was one of the first MG casinos that I played at a lot for quite a while and one day decided to make a cashout for around $200 IIRC after I had probably made 20 or so deposits totaling approx. $2K...

    They hem hawed around with my withdrawal for about two or three weeks, never paying it and finally sent me an email back saying that I had came up on their central database of fraudulent players and bonus abusers list and my account had been flagged...and back then I had maybe only played at two or three MG casinos since they were still relatively new.
    Well, I finally got in touch with Proc-Cyber and got the mess straightened out, it was someone else with the exact same name as me (what's the odds of that) and living in the same metropolitan area...remember there were not that many ISP's back 10 years ago, but during this fiasco Proc-Cyber had also said that themselves and the casinos all shared a database list of players that also included the players deposit/withdrawal listings and play styles and habits, meaning what types of games were normally played and how they were played....etc., etc.

    So yes, this un-announced and cloaked database list has been around for quite some time now !!
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2008
    5 people like this.
  22. Nov 25, 2008
  23. Shocked

    Shocked Quit Gambling

    Occupation:
    Nurse
    Location:
    Staffs UK
    Wonderful, so there's the possibility that I could be stuck on a blacklist because..oh I don't know...perhaps I'm funny about putting money back into Go Wild with all the recent faff, despite the fact that I play at 2 other MGs most days?!?
     
  24. Nov 26, 2008
  25. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Yet another "conspiracy theory" that turns out to be fact? :rolleyes:

    I think things are beginning to unravel.
     
  26. Nov 26, 2008
  27. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    They appear in some of the T&Cs for both the Casino Rewards and the Vegas Partner groups. This isn't a new change. The 2006 T&C for Casino Classic is quoted in the thread at http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...1121-important-info-about-casino-classic.html and shows the term. However, this is the first I've heard about enforcing the term in the way Max described, which is concerning.
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Nov 26, 2008
  29. Alexishot69

    Alexishot69 Banned User

    Occupation:
    computing
    Location:
    Edinburgh
    hmm

    i think your right this indeed could be the tip of the iceberg and wouldnt be in the least bit surprised if we hear more horrors in time about not only mgs but other software providers ..
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Nov 26, 2008
  31. GGW Laurie

    GGW Laurie Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Self Employed
    Location:
    In the Beautiful South !!
    i so agree with that , i do believe this is going to become one more of the many major issues going on with mgs and before all is said and done it will somehow affect other software providers and in turn will affect all u.s online players, which so far has been the case for many.......................laurie
     
  32. Nov 26, 2008
  33. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    I am thinking just the opposite. This is actually fact that is branded as being a 'conspiracy theory' by the casinos and some naysayers.
     
  34. Nov 26, 2008
  35. funky_seagull

    funky_seagull Dormant account

    Occupation:
    unemployed, on incapacity benefit.
    Location:
    scotland
    several accredited casinos on casinomeister refer to this central database in their terms and conditions:

    XXXXXX audits cash-ins to determine if winnings are a result of promotion abuse. It is possible for promotion abuse to occur even though wagering is compliant with the standard terms and conditions and bonus system rules. If promotion abuse is identified, then XXXXX reserves the right at managements discretion to take the following action(s) against the abusive player:
    A) may be banned from receiving or redeeming further promotions
    B) may be banned from play in the casino
    B) may have account terminated with immediate effect
    C) Player information forwarded to a central database resulting in players being barred from receiving bonuses at any other casinos.
    D) Cash-ins may be denied, reversed and/or considered void. In such cases, only original purchase amount may be allowed for withdrawal.
    Please contact us should you require additional information about this condition.
     
  36. Nov 26, 2008
  37. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    That may well be the case here too. GLC did say that they were good with the withdrawal request and that it was the report from their "risk services supplier" which was "alarming" and triggered the withdrawal denial.

    Yes, that's pretty much it, though they didn't "admit it" so much as offered it up outright as justification for denying the player's winnings.

    It would be good to know whom you are quoting here. What casinos did you find are using these terms?
    (I know I could hunt around to find it myself but ... there are other PABs to worry about and there's only so much time in a day.)
     
  38. Nov 26, 2008
  39. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    Sorry, but again you have made a generalization without any basis in fact.

    While I appreciate your participation and your eagerness to be of assistance, I do find these unwarranted accusations very disturbing.

    Hence, please be advised that any future accusations, implications, or insinuations of this sort will no longer be tolerated - will be deleted - and may result in a vacation.

    Thanks for your attention.
     

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