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Bodog/SEO Discussion (split)

Discussion in 'Affiliate Issues' started by Rollo, Sep 12, 2007.

    Sep 12, 2007
  1. Rollo

    Rollo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Beekeeper
    Location:
    Tropic of Cancer
    I agree, losing one's domain is a big deal and it can take years to recover one's search engine traffic. That said, Bodog I'm sure relies very little on free traffic as it has strong brand recognition and relies primarily on other forms of advertising (banners, print, affilaite, etc...) so I don't think it's as big a deal for them as it would be for a pure advertising based portal.

    Also, major sites generally have a direct channel to Google via a dedicated rep and can get them fix this sort of issue from the back end. That's most likely what happened. Yahoo and MSN are a bit more problematic. Newbodog.com is #1 in Google for keyword "bodog", but nowhere to be found in the other two.

    Why New Bodog.com?

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    CA looks pretty confident, hands positioned in a power pyramid, lips slightly pursed in a gesture of seriousness and sincerity. His explaination seeming honest, convincing, trustworthy

    ... until you look down and notice that he's wearing a thumb ring.

    Too funny...

    Cal, take off that thumb ring, man.
     
  2. Sep 12, 2007
  3. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    I can guarantee, that this did NOT happen. There is no "direct Channel" to Google's backend, unless your a very big addwords advertiser (and then only for advertising stuff and NOT for search rankings)... and bodog was kicked off google addwords quite sometime ago along with all the other online gambling advertising in google.

    I agree that bodog.com, does have name recognition. But that only goes so far on the You must register/login in order to see the link.. Because newbodog.com is the name that needs to be recognized by the public now.

    The majority of new players for newbodog are gonna come from search marketing... No search marketing, no new players, simple as that. No new players and soon newbodog goes the way of the Dinosaurs.

    With the Google Search Quality Team watching the SEO's at newbodog closely... if the SEO's for newbodog try any shady SEO tactics, they are gonna get hammered by google (in other words, newbodog will get banned or penalized by google).

    This is gonna be very interesting to watch. If the newbodog.com SEO's make one wrong step in their quest for those #1 search money spots, they are gonna be in far far worse shape than they are now.

    I will say that is a very good opportunity for some bodog affiliate to score big, if they can figure out how to bridge the gap between the old domain name and the new domain name.... But in my opinion, only fools promote a program that shorts them at every chance they get... And the rumor around the water cooler is that bodog shorts it's affiliates...


    **Added** - A little bird just whispered in my ear, the newbodog SEO's are hard at work. Contacting all their 'paid' linking partners and are asking them to point their links to newbodog.com instead of bodog.com. The first step in regaining their lost search rankings.... But google is watching and google really really hates paid links.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2007
  4. Sep 12, 2007
  5. Rollo

    Rollo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Beekeeper
    Location:
    Tropic of Cancer
    Yes there is.

    Major sites have dedicated Google reps (meaning liasons that offer them personalized attention) and can get issues resolved in 24 hours or so. Google really takes care of important authority sites... which is part of the reason they are #1. Google's algos are really good and might be able to detect what happened on their own, but it would be easy for a company like Bodog to simply contact Google and have them fix it.

    Why would Bodog have to "game" the engines to be #1 for their brand? It's in Google's interest to give the people what they are looking for, not to play games. Bodog will never get penalized for link bombing on the term "bodog". That's their brand.

    As far as paid inbound links go, there is no penalty for paid links, Google's algos just ignore them or give them little weight so it's a waste of money.

    SEO isn't that important for a company like bodog. Does Ford really need to have their site come up #1 for "cars" to get new clients?

    I bet free traffic from SERPs makes up about 5% to 10% of Bodog's new clients, max.

    SEO is all about free search engine based traffic, nothing more. Bodog doesn't need free traffic to succeed.
     
  6. Sep 12, 2007
  7. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Hands positioned in a power pyramid: can be interpretted as a "Slight sign of definite superiority"

    Pursed lips can also mean fixed views that cannot be changed. This usually reveals an arrogant and superficial character.

    Ahh, ain't body language great?
     
  8. Sep 12, 2007
  9. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    Show it to me. Or hook me up with ANYONE that has a direct access (that is not adwords based) and I'll give you $10,000 USD cash if you can hook me up.

    FYI - I been an SEO since before google existed. I also rub noses with some folks on the google search quality team most everyday... and that is as close as anyone gets to googles SERP.

    Really, your SEO is a bit out of date, I think your talking 2005 SEO not 2007 SEO.
    You should see what Matt Cutts (Google's head of Search Quality) has to say about paid links.
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
    Matt wants everyone to report paid links, so those sites can be PENALIZED in the SERP by having the juice from the paid links turned off and the sites trust ranking reduced.

    Now if you really want to talk about general SEO, we should start another thread and not hijack this one. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2007
    1 person likes this.
  10. Sep 12, 2007
  11. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    I too agree that there is no direct access to influence in Google rankings. If there was, it would be *major* news.
     
  12. Sep 12, 2007
  13. Rollo

    Rollo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Beekeeper
    Location:
    Tropic of Cancer
    Yeah, the photo is pretty amusing.

    This is getting really off topic, but oh well... maybe everyone else will find it interesting. Anything else, feel free to message me.

    Anyway, I have a dedicated Google rep. I own a very highly trafficed site (not gambling related). Once I started getting major traffic, Google started contacted me with various offers to assist in optimizing the site, ad placement, marketing campaigns, and other things. Google is very helpful.

    I also have several friends and aquantences that have them as well. There are a lot that goes on behind the scenes, particularly for heavy Adsense or Adwords users. I'm not saying Google will assist you in ranking "money" keywords like "online sports betting." They won't. That would be news and also would destoy all their credibility. For these generic money keywords, SEO is very important. All the issues you mentioned apply, especially if you're black hat, but helping a major company rank for it's brand in this case is another story. All it requires is a redirect.

    What I am saying is that coming up in the top 5 for "online sports betting" isn't essential for Bodog like it would be for a pure middleman affialite portal becuase they (BD) have the dosh to invest in all sorts of marketing. Free SERP traffick based sites are really the worst and most unpredictable business model one can follow - a change in the algos can send a site to oblivion. It's the only option if you don't have many resources, but more established sites diverify.

    A company's brand is a special case becuase to serach on "bodog" requires prior knowledge of bodog and so it's really out of the realm of what SEOs dedicate themselves to doing. SEOs really go for free traffic on money keywords like "online poker" or whatever. I guess if your brand is "online poker" you're shit out of luck.

    It may be that Google's algo just corrected the issue becuase it's fast and very, very good, but one CAN fix such issues by contacting Google. There is no magic that the Bodog team could manage in a week if it were against Google's will... think about it. Either they contacted Google or the algos corrected the issue automatically based on the content shift to the new domain, the fact that the old domain is 404, and all the inbound links shifting from bodog.com to newbodog.com.

    Anyway, there is a helluva lot that goes on behind the sceens that most people don't know about. There are special incentives and programs that Google does not want to be made public. Investigate some of these things in the private formus on the major webmaster boards and you'll find independent confirmation.

    I guess you can beleive that I'm just making it up to look cool, but if you dig a bit you'll see that Google treats important sites with major traffic differently.
     
  14. Sep 12, 2007
  15. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    The only reason you have a dedicated google rep is that you are running google adsense on your site. Once a sites adsense traffic reaches a certain point the site gets a dedicated google rep, thats google's policy.

    Major sites that do not run google adsense or google adwords, do not get their own dedicated rep, no matter how much traffic they get or how big they are, like Wikipedia. Wikipedia has no google dedicated rep and it is one of if the biggest most trafficked sites on the WWW.

    adsense does not allow gambling sites, so no gambling site has a dedicated google rep.

    ... And google is aways helpful when it comes to making them more money... ;)
     
  16. Sep 12, 2007
  17. Rollo

    Rollo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Beekeeper
    Location:
    Tropic of Cancer
    Last post on the topic...

    Do you really think if Wikipedia lost thier domain and had to move to a new one they would have to game the engines to come up #1 for Wikipedia and Google would be "watching" them to make sure they didn't pull any black hat moves trying to be #1 for the search term "Wikipedia"?

    You don't need a dedicated Adsense rep or Adwords rep to contact Google. Google will eventually respond even to issues average webmasters are having. Do you really think a site like Wikipedia would have to wait in line? One phone call is all it would take. Moreover, Google's algo would likely correct the issue in short order given the mega amount of spidering Wiki gets.

    Anyway, let's do everyone else a favor and not continue the dicussion here. It's gotten way off topic. Let's move it to the webmaster formus or someplace else if you want to continue the debate. Cool?
     
  18. Sep 12, 2007
  19. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    My last post on the SEO subject, as well.
    Really who would they call? The google front desk at the Plex? Try calling google out the blue, I have, your not going to get anything resolved that way.

    The ONLY reason you and your friends have a contact at google is because you Partnered with Google by running google adsense adds on your sites.

    Google does not care that Calvin lost his right to the bodog domain name. Google also does not care, if newbodog.com comes up in a search for [bodog] or not.

    What google does care about is the manipulation of it's SERP and in order to regain their search market share (closer to 65% - 75% of bodogs new players come from search marketing) the bodog SEO's are gonna hafta push the SEO envelope, a lot.

    bodog spent so much money on SEO (search market player accusation) in the past, a guy I know was able to build a new very large, very nice house with just some of the SEO money he made from bodog.

    Want a little inside bodog SEO info??? Try the blog at ...
    gregboser dot com.

    BTW - The $10,000 USD offer still stands.
     
  20. Sep 12, 2007
  21. Rollo

    Rollo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Beekeeper
    Location:
    Tropic of Cancer
    Jesus... I was really triying to be diplomatic. I really have to have the one more word if you're throwing silly bets in my face now, and in a gambling forum no less.

    I'll send you my Paypal address, would you like to pay that $10,000 at once or in montly installments?

    I said "direct channel to Google via a dedicated rep" and that Google can fix things like this from the backend. I have a dedicated rep and numerous others have as well. You decided to change it to " 'direct Channel' to Google's backend" for whatever reason. That's what they call a straw man argument in debate class.

    Moreover, we were talking about Wikipedia before you decided to make another unilateral shift in subject... Yes, I would fully expect that if a representative of Wikipedia called Google, they would respond to the issue. Yes, I'm sure Wiki has Google's number. I'm sure they could even stoll right up to the Googleplex's front desk and probably would if something so catastrophic happened as they lost their domain.

    Again, I can't say one way or the other about Bodog. It's either the algos or some assistance from Google. You're acting like going from bodog.com to newbodog.com is something more complex than a simple redirect. It's not. Yes, I would expcet a company as wired as Bodog to have the email of a contact at Google... it's not that hard. No, I don't think Bodog has enough pull to be able to just phone Google. No, I'm not insisting that Google assisted Bodog directly, but it realistically could have been the case.

    Again, I can't say what happend. I can say what didn't happen and that's the Bodog enginers know something that the rest of us don't and can game Google's multi-billion dollar algo in a week's time. If that's the case, why no luck in Yahoo and MSN? Couldn't they work thier magic there too?

    Lastly I disagree totally with the premise that Google doesn't care, Google does care about making sure their SERPs are relevant and yes they do respond to inquires... even if there is no direct Adsense or Adwords profit involved. Authority sites (whether in the algos or from direct contact) get special treatment (as they should). I guess Google just works hard not to look like Yahoo and MSN which at the moment have dead links to bodog.com coming up in the top of their results for "bodog". Again, I'm not saying what happened, only speculating about what are reasonable possibilities and what aren't.

    Now, let's PLEASE stop this tiresome off-topic rant and let's just agree to disagree, ok? So... thank you very much for your insightful comments Mr. lots0, but I respectfully disagree with just about everything you have had to say today... but it was great fun.

    Now if you want to debate the stylistic flourish that is CA's thumb ring, you're on.
     
  22. Sep 13, 2007
  23. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    OK the last post was not my last.

    It was NOT a bet.

    Do you have problems with reading comprehension as well as spelling?

    I'll pay cash... as soon as you provide a direct channel to google via the back end, that is not involved with adsense... An inside contact to google's back door, like you said, no bets, just payment for services received.

    No google can't. It is a DNS (Domain Name Server) problem and has nothing to do with google and there is nothing google could do to fix bodogs DNS problem... Your ignorance of how the internet works is showing...

    OK, so just what is your point? You disagree with me, but you don't know what is going on...

    You may own a site or two, rollo, but you don't seem to have a clue about search marketing. I do consulting if your interested. ;)
     
  24. Sep 13, 2007
  25. Chatmaster

    Chatmaster Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Online Marketing Specialist
    Location:
    South Africa
    Rollo,

    Just want to point out a few things here.

    Although I do not have any kind of information from Bodog stats I can give you an idea of the amount of damage done here from an SEO perspective.

    In general, if you take away affiliate referrals, and advertising you are looking at average damage to at least 50% of all traffic based on search engine referrals. Of that you are looking at probably 80% + coming from Google. The damage done to Bodog on SEO is setting them back at least for the next 3 months until they start ranking for uncompetitive keywords. It will probably take them at least 2 years to regain the rankings they were at before this happened. The problem is that their competitors has gained the advantage to get ahead for at least 2 years. Getting competitive again is going to cost them allot of money and clever SEO to be done, but is not impossible.

    I hope you realise by now this statement is completely false and couldn't be further from the truth. But I want to highlight something here that should make logical sense. No engineer at Google can go and change the rankings for Newbodog to have similar ranking as bodog did. Technically the Google algorithms simply do not allow that luxury. Their SEO is starting from scratch, end of story.

    In terms of branding the damages are huge. Although the main source of traffic they received was most probably for their brand name searches on Google, there are other smaller trickles of traffic that came through on other search terms that combined will be allot more than their brand name search. This damage will take years to be repaired.

    One very important benefit Bodog has and should take advantage of is the publicity this incident can generate them. The opportunity for them to obtain natural backlinks from this incident is huge. Also with the latest information that the Mohawks actually own the domain bodog.com instead of Bodog, there is a chance of them getting their domain name back without having to appear in court. This can mean that their SEO team will smile from ear to ear when they implement the 301 redirect on newbodog to bodog.com.

    Finally, I just like to add in admiration that the SEO people Bodog is using has done an excellent job so far, and alot of us are supporting you guys to make this work out. I personally am extremely frustrated by things happening in the US atm in terms of net neutrality and lack of legislation to legalise online gambling, and this makes me a little biased towards bodog atm. Any court that makes a ruling that potentially kills a business based on a default judgement of this kind, needs to be shot in public.

    Then for the most damage done in terms of traffic.

    A casino with a good retention ratio usually have majority of it's traffic from return visitors. Bodog has serious retention problems right now, that is probably more serious than any marketing aspect. If they had a retention % of say 80%. They can expect to lose at least 30% of that. The damage would be worth allot of money that probably cannot be measured properly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2007
  26. Sep 13, 2007
  27. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    One thing that occurs to me is, $48million aside, that Bodog won't actually "lose" money over this, they just won't make as much! One would think that Calvin Ayre probably has enough to see him through a couple of holiday, 12 months mortgage repayments and a few escorts :)
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Sep 17, 2007
  29. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    Update.

    The work that the Bodog SEO's are doing is starting to pay off for Bodog in google.

    Newbodog.com is now #1 for [bodog] and as of a few minutes ago newbodog.com was #5 for [poker] in google.

    Kudos to the SEO team... Not too bad at all (I'm even somewhat impressed)...
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Sep 21, 2007
  31. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Although they have now rebranded permanently as "BodogLife.com" :D
     
  32. Sep 21, 2007
  33. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    Never a dull moment for Bodog marketers....
     
  34. Sep 21, 2007
  35. Chatmaster

    Chatmaster Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Online Marketing Specialist
    Location:
    South Africa
    It must be very exciting being there right now.
     
  36. Nov 28, 2007
  37. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    Another update

    Over two months later and bodoglife (or any Bodog site) is nowhere to be seen for any money key words in google. bodoglife.com is coming up for [bodog] but that really means nothing in SEO, as it will generate very little converting traffic for bodog.

    It looks like the SEO's at Bodoglife pushed too hard with the paid links and some other little tricks I won't go into... and the penalties at google have kicked in.

    Trying to take SEO shortcuts and play the blackhat game when the google search quality team were closely watching was very stupid and bodogs overpriced SEO should have known the search quality team was watching.

    Hey Calvin, you should have hired me as your SEO instead of you know who... At least if you had hired me you'd be ranking in the top ten for some money keywords now... ROTFLMAO

    On the bright side (although I think this is whole thing is very funny all on it's own )... This is a great opportunity for some good affiliate(s) to make some serious cash... if they want to deal with bodog that is...
     

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