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Bonus Complaint Bitstarz - removing WHOLE balance (again)

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by konchr, May 22, 2016.

    May 22, 2016
  1. konchr

    konchr Newbie member

    Occupation:
    betting consultant
    Location:
    Cyprus
    Bitstarz has an issue with being honest with itself.

    There are some posts of them removing the balances of their players for breaching ridiculous T&Cs. which is acceptable when those are breached.

    The story:
    I deposit 100euro and get 100 euro bonus. Balance 200Euro.

    I play and I win 4000 euro and withdraw.

    I get this email:
    " Hi,

    After a closer look at your gaming activity, we can see that you were unfortunately breaching one of our terms and conditions for bonus play.

    12.Until the play through requirements have been met, the maximum bet that can be placed is €5 or currency equivalent or 25 mBTC (0.025 BTC). This includes double up wagers after the game round has been completed, for example, wagering winnings from X game round on red/black.

    Here are some of the bets that violated the terms. in total there are over 100 of them .. You must register/login in order to see the link. .

    You wagering per round was upwards of 100 EUR and therefore, I had to forfeit your bonus and your winnings which is leaving you with your initial deposit.
    "
    I realize this a common trap for Bitstarz, however, they breached their own terms. I replied and got the same non-sense, so I give them an example

    On the same T&Cs that they quoted the previous point is:

    "11.When betting, placed bets are deducted from the player’s cash balance.
    However, if no cash balance is available the bet placed will be deducted
    from the player’s bonus balance."

    My balance never got under 100euro. Thus I was always playing with MY OWN REAL MONEY. I never played the bonus money.

    So how can you remove my own cash balance? This is ridiculous.
     
  2. May 22, 2016
  3. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Unfortunately (as with virtually ALL casinos) the taking of any bonus restricts stakes as per the terms, regardless of whether they turn the whole deposit+bonus into bonus funds or maintain a separate cash and bonus balance. You get a second chance so they've been fair.

    The reason is that firstly you could make large cash-balance wagers which dramatically increase the cash balance instantly therefore making converting the bonus after massively EV+ in your favour, and secondly their accounting system would find it impossible to differentiate, say if you made a bet in excess of 5 at the point where your cash balance only had 2 left in it so the remainder of the bet in excess of 5 would come from the bonus balance.

    No foul I'm afraid.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. May 22, 2016
  5. konchr

    konchr Newbie member

    Occupation:
    betting consultant
    Location:
    Cyprus
    Thank you Dunover for the quick reply.

    I agree with you on most terms. I work for a software company that makes betting software, namely, Betologic.
    Our software does differentiate between bonus wallets and real money wallet and credits each account individually.
    So in the same example, when my balance is 102 euro and I place a bet of 5 euro, 2 euro is removed from my real cash wallet and the other 3 from my bonus wallet. If I win, lets say 20 euro, then my bonus balance becomes (3*4)+97=109 and my real money wallet becomes (2*4) = 8 making my total balance 117. which is the same as (102-5)+20.

    In any case, I wrote this here to warn others.

    As far as my case is concerned, I will take legal action, firstly by complaining to Curacao, and then via my lawyer (yes I have a lawyer I work with there).

    The legal case is that they contradict their T&Cs.
    Since they say that the wallets are separated, they cannot even touch my real money balance, as they breach their licensing conditions, irrespective of what other T&Cs say. T&Cs must comply with the licensing jurisdiction first to be valid. And the Curacao one, mention that the player balance cannot be refused, as long as the player did not end up with the funds using fraudulent ways.
     
  6. May 22, 2016
  7. curremon

    curremon Senior Member PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    Working
    Location:
    finland
    If t&c says that max bet is 5e when you have taken bonus.. what there is left to complain ?
    You broke the rules and casino has all the right void your winnings...
     
  8. May 22, 2016
  9. konchr

    konchr Newbie member

    Occupation:
    betting consultant
    Location:
    Cyprus
    guys, you cannot just write anything in a contract. T&C are a contract between the player and the casino.
    There are laws behind what the contract can and cannot complain.
    For example, I could write in an employment contract that I have the right to hit you with a bat. You sign it. This specific term in the contract is void in accordance to the laws of the country you signed the contract with.

    This is exactly what most players think. that the casino has all the right to do anything they write in their T&Cs.

    As I wrote before. The legal case is the contradiction.

    If you take the series in a timely manner. Then:
    1. I play with my money.
    2. I increase my real money wallet.
    3. I breach a condition regarding a bonus.
    4. Cash is removed from my real money account.
    5. Breach of the Curacao gaming laws; which void whatever they wrote there.

    Anyway, I am not here to elaborate. It is a case of interpretation. I am not 100% sure that the Curacao actual laws (not gaming) are with regards to companies involved in gaming.

    Just to warn players that this is a terrible thing to do to players. We risk our money for entertainment and instead we get all this legal stuff that 99.9% of players cannot interprete properly.
     
  10. May 22, 2016
  11. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Curacao is bandit country as far as legal rights go. They are as useful as an ash tray on a motorbike. They even allow sub-licensees to run bent software, so good luck with your complaint. That aside, you took the bonus and broke the terms so have nothing to complain about anyway. The term is perfectly fair and exactly the same as terms allowed in decent licensing jurisdictions like UK, IOM, Malta etc.

    I'd say that 99.9% of players on here are aware of the term.

    Yes, you're angry as you've lost a few k because of it. Learn from it and move on.
     
  12. May 22, 2016
  13. curremon

    curremon Senior Member PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    Working
    Location:
    finland
    One good example player paying "learning money"...
     
  14. May 22, 2016
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    If you are going to take legal action, a better course would be to highlight the two different and contradictory max bet rules that they have on 2 different parts of the website, and the principle that where terms are contradictory, the interpretation most favourable to the consumer should apply. They also have a max bet not equal or greater than 30% of the bonus amount credited, and previously confiscated winnings from a player that did not break this term on the grounds that they had another term less favourable to the player elsewhere on the site.

    The downside is that they are based in Curacao, not the EU, so unless Curacao has the same kind of consumer protection laws as the EU, any action will likely fail. The bent software saga shows just how BAD Curacao are at policing the behaviour of it's licensees. If they see nothing wrong with them running pirated games, they are not going to see anything wrong with them shafting players with consumer unfriendly terms.

    You would probably waste your money taking action against them, because if your bets were as large as they claim, even the contradictory 30% max bet rule won't help, you would have broken that too!


    If you think the bonus terms are designed to make it impossible to win, you are right, they are - this is the real scandal in the industry, the bonus is advertised in a highly misleading way as "free money", but in many cases the terms make the bonus into a trap, and a player has LESS chance of winning WITH the bonus than by playing only with their own cash. More and more casinos have bonuses that should be avoided, but they advertise them in a way that makes players feel they are much better off claiming the bonus than not.

    Welcome bonuses are probably the worse ones to take, yet they are often the biggest in headline terms.
     
  16. May 23, 2016
  17. quber

    quber Senior Member

    Occupation:
    spy
    Location:
    Europe
    No where in the T's and C's does it say that that only bonus funds are limited to the €5 max bet, as it states in the term you posted (12) the €5 limit is in force while you have wagering requirements so as soon as you take a bonus you are restricted.

    You were trying to advantage play so can't be upset if you didn't read the rules correctly.
     

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