1. By continuing to use the site, you agree to the use of cookies .This website or its third-party tools use cookies, which are necessary to its functioning and required to achieve the purposes illustrated in the cookie policy.Find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Dismiss Notice
  3. Follow Casinomeister on Twitter | Facebook | YouTube | Casinomeister.us US Residents Click here! |  Svenska Svenska | 
Dismiss Notice
REGISTER NOW!! Why? Because you can't do diddly squat without having been registered!

At the moment you have limited access to view most discussions: you can't make contact with thousands of fellow players, affiliates, casino reps, and all sorts of other riff-raff.

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join Casinomeister here!

Beware UKGC are a sham regulator

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by JackMack, Nov 11, 2015.

    Nov 11, 2015
  1. JackMack

    JackMack Banned User - troll, flaming, being a dick

    Occupation:
    content writer
    Location:
    England
    This is a heads up for UK players.
    Beware the UKGC is a sham regulator and only has the pretense of protecting players.
    If you are defrauded, not paid or ripped off in any way they will not help you.
    They will not even contact or investigate the operator.
    This is from speaking directly to them on the phone.
    Their official line, "We cannot deal with individual complaints"

    When I asked what other type of complaint there was they could not answer.
    I asked them to send me details by email of why they could not respond to my complaint and repeat what they told me on the telephone.
    They said they would but I received no email. I sent a reminder email and no response.

    The UKGC come under the Department of Culture Media and Sport of the UK government so I contacted them and even though they are duty bound to respond I have received no reply from various emails.
    I have now taken this up with my MP who thus far has also been blanked.
    There is something very rotten in the UK market and it seems UK players have been thrown to the wolves in order for the government get their share of the flesh (profits)

    There are some very serious issues here, not least the conflict of interests within the UKGC as they are funded by those they supposedly regulate.
    Further, the government profit from this enterprise and so also have a conflict of interests in that proper regulation may eat into those profits.

    If you want an audit on all your gaming with a software provider you have played under a UKGC license forget it, the software company will ignore you and the UKGC will tell you they can't tell them to give you one. The upshot is that you have no way of having your stats independently analyzed to ensure the games are fair or functioning as advertised.
    The UKGC do not perform software checks.
    The only software check is performed when the game is first introduced to ensure it functions within the guidelines - thereafter there are no repeat checks or spot checks so absolutely nothing to ensure you are playing that version unaltered.
    Further, other checks required such as RNG, audits etc are all third party and the UKGC has no role there either.

    What does any of that mean for players?
    It means that you could theoretically play a game of coin toss and lose a thousand rounds in a row and the UKGC would not investigate.
    It means that a casino can refuse to pay for some nefarious reason and the UKGC will not investigate. They actually state on their website they cannot pursue funds or payments for players.
    It means that if you pester them enough they will tell you to take the dispute to ADR (Alternative Dispute Resolution) which really sums things up because they are saying "We are just the regulatory body, if you want something done you need to go to a 3rd party who act outside our regulations"
    You see under UKGC regulations remote casinos need to have an ADR in place. (Just a way of washing their hands of disputes)
    But of course should the Casino just ignore your requests for an ADR then you need the UKGC to inform you of their ADR details so that you can initiate them yourself but of course the UKGC just can't be bothered with that either. (Trust me I've been there, done that)

    This sums up just how Wild West the industry is and players are wide open to being ripped off in all manner of ways and have very little if any protection - just the pretense of protection and regulation.
    If a Casino wants to cheat its players, essentially there is little to stop them other than bad rep.

    That is where Casinomeister and other watchdog sites come in.
    I don't know Brian but it seems to me he is a smart businessman. I doubt this site could thrive the way it has without him having some scruples.
    Ultimately websites such as this do more to regulate gaming and protect players than the British or American governments and without undermining the role of watchdog websites that is shameful.

    I will continue to push for transparency at the very minimum because UK players need to know the reality is very different from the perception when it comes to UK regulation.
     
    6 people like this.
  2. Nov 11, 2015
  3. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Senior Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    You are seriously going deep with this one mate.

    The UKGC is only the licensing body, nothing more, nothing less. If a casino breaks the rules of the license then they will intervene, not for anything else.

    As for player disputes they set up the ADR's, hence the route a player supposedly has to take when in dispute with a casino.

    Some casinos, like the ones accredited here at CM, will discuss disputes as well with a 3rd party (CM, The Pogg, AskGamblers, LCB etc).

    Fact is, the UKGC cannot force casinos/software providers to give out audits/gaming histories etc if there is no clear rules violation or at least a probable cause. As long as the casinos have their RNG tested and gaming results audited regularly by an accredited operator with a satisfactory result then there is nothing the UKGC can and will do. No law in the UK would support that kind of investigation or request.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Nov 11, 2015
  5. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Heavy stuff. I'll wait for Vinyl's essay and Max who seems to be rapidly learning about the UKGC at the moment. Remember, the industry as regards the UKGC and ADR's etc. is still in relative infancy, a transitional stage compared to say financial services and more established areas of commerce.
    I am sure with further examination many flaws will be found.
     
  6. Nov 11, 2015
  7. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    I'm afraid I don't have much to add to Harry_BKK's post: the UKGC offers licenses and polices them, period. Player complaints are not on the UKGC's menu because they've farmed all that out to the casinos and the ADRs that _must_ be named by the casinos.

    I don't mean to be disparaging about this but the UKGC functions in much the same way as Costa Rica or Curacao in terms of their licensing structure. In the UKGC's case their rules of conduct for the licensed casinos is their License Conditions and Codes of Practice (aka "LCCP"). There are provisions for how licensees should handle player complaints -- unlike Costa Rica, for example -- but the entire complaints process is beyond their mandate. That is why the subject of the ADRs -- Alternate Dispute Resolution -- is such a hot topic these days: from the player's side of the fence all the eggs are in the ADR basket and we have yet to see whether that basket is being handled professionally and with due care.

    Other jurisdictions -- Kahnawake, now Malta, there may be others -- are much more pro-active regarding player issues and provide an in-house complaints process. Nothing against the license-only guys but so far the jurisdictions that get their hands dirty are doing a better job as far as player complaints are concerned.

    I should mention that there are a few things that are really gumming up the works as far as the UKGC's ADR system goes. If you look at the list of Approved ADRs -- here: You must register/login in order to see the link. -- you'll see eCOGRA which most of us are aware of but the rest, 10 of them to date, are pretty much unknowns. Ok, maybe a few of us have heard of IBAS but who is familiar with "Jennifer Gallagher", for example, or "Joel Goldman"? Half of those ADRs don't even focus on the casino sector and more than a few of them are licensing and/or gaming-related properties themselves. Tattersalls? Seriously?

    Of course the complaints resolution services that most forum-savvy players do know -- us, ThePogg, AskGamblers -- and distinctly absent from the ADR list and there is no reason to believe that is going to change any time soon.

    I dunno, if I'm a gambler with an issue I'm probably not going to want to put my fate in the hands of Jennifer or Joel -- no offence but I've never heard of these people and have no reason to believe they're up to the task -- or Tattersalls FFS.

    Needless to say the UKGC has some bridges to build in terms of players and the whole complaints process within the UK gaming industry. Sooner would be better because, as the OP has clearly pointed out, folks ain't feeling the bridge thing happening.

    To be fair I have to say that my impression is that the UKGC has its heart in the right place and is honestly trying to bring decent regulation to the casino industry on behalf of UK citizens. That said they do appear to be working against some serious constraints including severe budgetary limitations and powerful lobbyist pressures. It is worthwhile remembering that some very big players in the business -- 888/Cassava, WillHill, etc -- were involved with the structuring of the UKGC from the earliest days. If the stories are to be believed it was batteries of their lawyers that helped shape the UKGC and determine the course it set. For better or worse that legacy -- or some variation thereof -- is our reality today regarding the UKGC, warts and all.

    Turns out I had more to say than I thought. Big surprise, eh? ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2015
    7 people like this.
  8. Nov 11, 2015
  9. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The only real gain for UK players has been to bring licenced operators firmly within the jurisdiction of the UK courts, no more having to hire a lawyer in Gibraltar or Malta to pursue a claim via the courts if other avenues fail.

    If you are after information about your play, then it's a case of using the Data Protection Act, and issuing a Subject Access Request for all the gaming logs they hold of your play. They will either have to deliver, or argue their case with the ICO, not the UKGC.

    As this new regime matures, we will see the occasional court case, and if the UKGC is lacking in a serious way this will be exposed in court from the evidence used by players and operators.

    However, it is particularly damning that the UKGC will blank an MP as well as a member of the public. Depending on said MPs status within the party, this could cause embarrassment for UKGC officials.
     
    2 people like this.
  10. Nov 13, 2015
  11. JackMack

    JackMack Banned User - troll, flaming, being a dick

    Occupation:
    content writer
    Location:
    England
    The issue for me is that UKGC is really just a front, a veneer of respectability to have UK based players think they are properly protected.

    I finally received a response from them which suggested they would act if terms of their license were breached but this is not what they had told me over many emails and several telephone calls before I escalated the matter.
    In stating that they do not deal with individual complaints then they are saying they do not deal with complaints period as all complaints are of course individual.
    They also told me that they will only approach an operator if they determine they have had enough complaints and there is an issue but since they do not deal with individual complaints nor record them this will never happen - this is how disingenuous the whole thing is.

    In the last email they changed that to say they would approach the operator if I supplied evidence their regulations had been breached (which i had already done on several occasions)

    Regardless this not about a specific case as I had previously had cause to make a formal complaint to UKGC which went ignored and there have been several other issues.
    If there are issues of common law then hopefully that will come out in the wash and it can be discussed whether the UKGC has as many teeth as possible.
    I think it is important that the British public are made aware of how unable or unwilling the UKGC are to help though since a license under the UKGC enables companies to advertise in the UK and the government directly profit from this operation - I don't think it will be that hard to convince people that operators and profit have been put before protection and regulation as things stand.
    I do wonder how the consultation process came up with such a worthless regulatory body.

    I can't say much more for now except it is currently with the highest echelons of UK government (At least the failures of UKGC and the DCMS) but the gears grind very slowly. It has taken me a couple of months and more to get this far and this will hardly be priority for a leading Cabinet minister so I expect the next response to take the full cycle which will coincide with the holiday period so early 2016?
    Any discussion I have will be private but of course any changes to the current system will be made public anyway.

    Getting some kind of worthwhile change will be very difficult no doubt but I expect the whole process to be enlightening one way or another.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Nov 13, 2015
  13. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Senior Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    All this trouble because DOA would not give you a WILD LINE :confused: :eek: :rolleyes:

    This is just hilarious and an absolute waste of everybodys time as you can download your gaming history at any online casino if you want an audit.

    The UKGC has no legal power to do anything unless the casino in question is in breach of the licensing regulations. Why are you not using an ADR to get to the information you so desperately want!!!
     
  14. Nov 13, 2015
  15. JackMack

    JackMack Banned User - troll, flaming, being a dick

    Occupation:
    content writer
    Location:
    England
    I have already explained all of this and the issues at hand.
    Firstly the audits I have requested from individual casinos either go unanswered or come back bogus (stats do not add up)
    Secondly I am looking for the full game data logs (these will be over 1 million) it is not possible to manual retrieve them and even if it were it would be logistically impossible to get them all into a useable format for data analysis.

    What is the point of UKGC if everything is farmed out to fly by night 3rd parties?
    What happens when a casino just ignores your ADR requests?
    What happens when the UKGC ignore your complaint that an operator is breaching the terms of their license as I have already explained.
    What happens if my audit shows my results are anomalous?

    Why are you so opposed to the possibility of better regulation and protection for players and more transparency?
    Why are you so worried about my waste of time - you don't have to lift a finger except to troll this thread.

    I won't clutter the thread with further responses until there is something worthwhile to add.
    Anyway, you're a German living in Bangkok, it's literally out of your jurisdiction.
     
  16. Nov 13, 2015
  17. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Senior Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    You can download minimum 1 year history and import it into Excel for super easy analysis.

    Only player disputes are handled by 3rd parties, the licenses are issued by the UKGC.

    Then it is in breach of their license and you can approach the UKGC

    The UKGC will not ignore you if it is a valid complaint.

    That will not be the case.

    More regulation??? You are kidding, right??? Transparency - any decent online casino is very transparent and straightforward with player issues

    I am certainly not trolling. You are continuously trying to convince us that the games are rigged and you have been cheated by all the casinos.

    That i want to see.

    What does it matter what i am and where i live??

    :eek: :eek2: :confused: :what: :what:
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2015
  18. Nov 13, 2015
  19. JackMack

    JackMack Banned User - troll, flaming, being a dick

    Occupation:
    content writer
    Location:
    England
    You are confused certainly.
    Just take it as read that all you have bolded is incorrect, already explained or irrelevant.
     
  20. Nov 13, 2015
  21. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Senior Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    There you go Jack, edited my post to make it easier for you to read and understand.
     
  22. Nov 13, 2015
  23. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Guys, please chill a bit. No need to get hostile over this. We're all still trying to get a handle on this UKGC-ADR thing, please remember that.

    Or, as Adrian Brody said in DARJEELING: "Ladies, please!" ;)
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Nov 13, 2015
  25. interlog

    interlog Senior Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    London
    I'm with Harry on this one. I have lost shed lots on the UK lottery but that doesn't mean that they set out to scam me.

    Equally the same applies for slot machines, and DOA in particular for this case. You may not have won anything decent but at the same time others have won on this game, even playing at the same casino.

    I can understand why the UKGC is/was reluctant to look into your case unless there was something substantive to warrant it. And that would, in my opinion, not be the case because slot X hasn't played ball unless there is evidence it has been rigged.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Nov 13, 2015
  27. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    You do understand that the UKGC doesn't "look into cases", yes? That's not what they do. They don't have the people to do it. That whole process is beyond their scope.

    It's like asking your dentist to help you bake a cake. Why would you do that? Where I come from this is called "barking up the wrong tree".
     

Share This Page