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Beware Club Dice

Discussion in 'Online Casino and Poker Complaints - old section' started by karenpearson, Jul 2, 2005.

    Jul 2, 2005
  1. karenpearson

    karenpearson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Post office Clerk
    Location:
    Doncaster, UK
    :notworthy

    Firstly I'd just like to say thanks to all who post on this forum as I've learned some valuable information over the past couple of days.

    I'm not sure if this post will be of any use as the problem will probably only affect people like myself who are new to online gaming. New people don't usually use forums like this until they've had their fingers burned and it's too late. However, I need to stamp my feet a bit and if this prevents one person from getting ripped off, it will have been worthwhile.

    Anyway, I joined Club Dice casino about 6 weeks ago and made a deposit of 200. They dumped 100 bonus into my account automatically without me having any choice in the matter. I played roulette for a couple of hours and increased my bank to 444 and decided to withdraw my profits befor losing the lot. As I'm new to online gaming I wasn't sure of the exact procedures so just had to go with the flow. When I attempted to make the withdrawal I received an on-screen message saying that if I continued with my withdrawal, I would lose my 100 bonus, or words to that effect. This was acceptable to me so I continued. 144 was taken from my balance and placed in the pending withdrawals, the 100 bonus was deducted and my account was back to where I started, 200.

    I continued playing roulette over the following week, and my casino account balance continued to grow. However, a few days into the week I went into a bit of a bad run and reversed the withdrawal request in order to top up my balance. After a couple of weeks playing and after a very bad run, my account balance was at 600 so I decided to quit whilst I was still ahead. I requested a withdrawal of the full amount. A couple of days later I received an email from Club Dice saying that my request had been declined due to me not having fulfilled my wagering requirements for the bonus. I replied to them stating that they had already deducted my bonus, but at the time I was unaware that even though the bonus was no longer in my account, I still had to fulfil the requirements. This was explained to me so I accepted the fact. I was also told that wagers placed on roulette did not count towards my wagering requirements. They also gave me a list of other non-allowed games. I was gutted about this as roulette was the only game I enjoyed playing. I didnt want to play the video slots as I feel they are rigged and I didnt have a clue how to play poker. The only game I felt I knew a little of how to play was blackjack. That was the only option for me to attempt to play out my wagering requirements as it was not on their list of non-allowed games. Anyway, I got on with it and apart from not losing, I even managed to increase my balance a bit too. After a couple of sessions using small wagers I emailed Club Dice and asked them if my wagering requirements had been met. They promptly replied and told me that I had wagered 1200 in allowed games and still needed to wager a further 2400 in order to fulfil my requirements. I thought Id wagered more than this so decided to double check that I was now playing on allowed games so I emailed Club Dice again and asked the specific question about Blackjack & Live Blackjack. Again I promptly received a reply stating that both the games were allowed for the first deposit bonus wagering requirements. By this time I'd got an email from them with a list of non-allowed games & this list does not contain either of the blackjack games. Also an email specifically stating that both forms of blackjack are allowed for this particular bonus.

    There's also the fact that my wagering requirement reduced from the original 3600 to 2400, therefore I must have played some allowed games. The only games I played were roulette, blackjack and live blackjack. I agree with the fact that roulette is a non-allowed game so obviously blackjack must be allowed. I know for a fact that Ive now well exceeded my 3600 requirement but they still wont let me withdraw my cash. I attempted to withdraw 600 and again it was declined due to the fact that they say I have not fulfilled my requirements as Ive only played non-allowed games. Ive mailed them and told them I have emails from them saying that blackjack is allowed. They say they have no records of this so I forwarded the 2 emails they sent me.They wont answer the question as to how my wagering requirement has reduced by 1200, if Ive only been playing non-allowed games.Then I got an email saying that I cant make a withdrawal because "most of your winnings were accumulated by playing in roulette"

    I apologise for going on a bit but to sum up: 1) I have 2 emails from them saying that blackjack is an allowed game.

    2) They told me that my wagering requirement had reduced by 1200 within a couple of days of me starting to play blackjack. How can this not be an allowed game, Except roulette, Ive played nothing else.

    3) Theres nothing in their terms conditions which says that youre not allowed to win anything on roulette, even if youve fulfilled your wagering requirements on other games. They are just trying to get out of paying my winnings because I havent lost anything and are trying to make excuses not to pay.

    Today I received an email from them citing their terms and conditions and it basically tells me they can change their rules at any time to suit themselves in order to prevent me from winning anything and there's nothing I can do about it.

    Looks like I'm gonna have to lose my 600 on the dodgy slots as I don't have a clue about poker, and in their new t&c these are all I can play to wind down my wagering requirements.
     
  2. Jul 2, 2005
  3. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    God knows how many new online players have been scared away from the industry by this sort of stuff, and it must be very frustrating for you.

    Fortunately, the people that power Club Dice, Playtech now have a complaints avenue open that goes direct to the marketing executive Iris Toledano and you can access this at You must register/login in order to see the link..

    Although it's still too recent a development to accurately judge its effectiveness, Toledano has promised that any complaint against one of their casino licensees will receive her personal attention direct with the management concerned and that may help you to get this resolved.

    Keep your cool and keep posting here so we can support you.
     
  4. Jul 2, 2005
  5. mgibson99

    mgibson99 Dormant account

    Location:
    Washington DC
    See the thread in "Online Casinos" about playing without bonuses. This is exactly the reason I don't play with bonuses. Too confusing and too much of a hassle.
     
  6. Jul 2, 2005
  7. MrWolf

    MrWolf Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Journalist
    Location:
    London
    Karen,
    I wouldn't wager anymore and risk blowing the lot on slots until you've been through the Playtech complaints procedure.

    It seems ridiculous to me that they're trying to hold you to wagering requirements for a bonus you've declined!

    For your future online play, I'd seriously recommend 32Red, Trident Lounge, iNetBet, William Hill, and Ladbrokes as reliable and honest operations.

    It's also worth double checking promo terms and conditions before you start playing. Most casinos prohibit roulette from bonus play, so if that's the game you want to play, just ask for the bonus to be removed before you start wagering and there shouldn't be any trouble.

    Good luck in getting paid.
     
  8. Jul 4, 2005
  9. karenpearson

    karenpearson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Post office Clerk
    Location:
    Doncaster, UK
    Thanks for the help!!

    UPDATE!!!!

    After a few exchanges of emails yesterday they finally told me that BJ is an allowed game for everyone except us mugs from "rip-off" Britain who play in GBP sterling!!!! Smells a bit of racism to me.

    Apparently it says this in their t&c. However, the link on their website to the t&c for this initial deposit bonus doesn't appear to work, so I can't get to read it.

    I do however remember reading their terms (although I couldn't remember what they said) when I first joined them and downloaded their software. I had to agree to these before I could complete the download.

    I ended up uninstalling the software and then reinstalling it so that I could read the terms again. I did this and Blackjack is definitely not on the list of non allowed games in the t&c that I agreed to.

    They still won't answer my question as to why they sent me 2 emails telling me that BJ is allowed.

    As my email address ends in ".co.uk" I don't think it would take a rocket scientist to figure out where I live and which currency I would be playing with so I should never have been told that BJ is an allowed game.

    Their most recent email also cited the bit of their t&c which basically says they can do what the f**k they like to stop me winning anything and there's nothing I can do about it.

    I've realised that not only do you have to be "on the ball" with your playing techniques. You also have to be fully clued up on the dirty tricks the operators use to prevent you taking anything from them after you've managed to "win" something.

    I've pitched the bitch to Bryan and I'll get in touch with Playtech too.

    Thanks again for the help and watch this space for developments.

    PS. Tried the slots with fun money yesterday and it bored me senseless so no risk of busting out on them!!!!
     
  10. Jul 4, 2005
  11. karenpearson

    karenpearson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Post office Clerk
    Location:
    Doncaster, UK
    I read your original post after I'd got involved with all this mess but I can say with all certainty that if I do ever play any other casinos, I will decline any bonuses before I wager a single penny.

    It should be compulsory for anyone new to online casinos to visit this forum before even considering playing them.
     
  12. Jul 4, 2005
  13. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    Another case of a new player having the cheek to beat the odds and win... and then get screwed by the casino. This industry will shoot itself in the foot if the rouges are not banished soon trust me.
     
  14. Jul 4, 2005
  15. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    Discriminating against British players is taking a dangerously short term view of the future imo and just seems so senseless.

    I think this is one of those more unusual cases where the 'Meister may be able to cut through this confusing BS and get a straight answer from his Playtech management contacts.

    They have been trying to become more responsive to players and this is a good opportunity for them to communicate on an issue that must be of concern to all existing and potential clients - if they can apply restrictive conditions on the Brits then they can just as easily do the same to other nationalities where it suits them.
     
  16. Jul 4, 2005
  17. Webzcas

    Webzcas Winter is Coming!

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
    Hmmm. This does not sound good at all. Please keep us posted as to how you get on. As a result of this, I think it is prudent I remove them from my site.
     
  18. Jul 4, 2005
  19. karenpearson

    karenpearson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Post office Clerk
    Location:
    Doncaster, UK
    Screenshots of emails

    As Club Dice are denying the fact that they told me BJ was an allowed game, I finally figured out how to capture screenshots of these emails as I couldn't save the originals to use as attachments. These 2 emails are also from 2 different staff members. Sorry the quality is a bit naff but I had to resize these files to upload them.
    :puke: They make me sick!
     
  20. Jul 4, 2005
  21. karenpearson

    karenpearson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Post office Clerk
    Location:
    Doncaster, UK
    Hi Jetset & thanks for the advice. Just been on the Playtech website but the link to the player enquiries section doesn't work. Tried to go through the sales enquiries link but after filling out the form, that wouldn't work either.
    Will just have to keep fingers crossed that Bryan can work some magic.
     
  22. Jul 4, 2005
  23. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    That is really inexcusable in a hi-tech company like Playtech, especially on a new player-sensitive initiative like a complaints channel.

    Don't worry too much - I'm pretty sure Bryan is all over this by now and has Playtech jumping around to sort it out. Iris seemed very sincere when we talked to her about this stuff in Montreal barely two weeks back.
     
  24. Jul 5, 2005
  25. hapaboii

    hapaboii Dormant account

    Occupation:
    In between jobs
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Hi Karen,

    I understand where you are coming from and definitely hope it works out for you.

    One of the most important lessons for a new online player is to always read the terms & conditions, especially related to bonuses(if you are going to play with them). And definitely, if you don't want to play with a bonus, tell the casino before you start playing so that they can remove it, otherwise it will be considered too late as the bonus itself has value - for example, if your balance ever went under 100GBP, you would have been playing with money you would not have had if it weren't for the bonus)

    In the case of Club Dice, it appears you were automatically credited with the new player bonus of 100% to 100GBP. In the terms, they state you are required to wager 12x bonus + deposit, or 12x (100 + 200) = 3600. In some cases, the casinos will max out the deposit portion of the wagering requirement at the same amount of the max bonus attained, or in this case, 12x (100 + 100) = 2400. I am not sure if this is the case for Club Dice, hence the reason they mistakenly thought you needed to wager 3600, then realizing their mistake, told you you only had to wager 2400, leading you to believe you had been credited with exactly 1200 in wagering.

    Ultimately, the terms and conditions for this bonus state that all forms of blackjack do NOT count toward the wagering requirements(such is now the case for US$ players as well), but I am greatly concerned that Club Dice support would send you not one, but two, emails reaffirming that blackjack was indeed a valid game to clear the WR. This could possibly, and in fact did, mislead you to wager more and more on blackjack in order to clear the WR when all along Club Dice's automated system will not recognize blackjack as valid(I assume their system follows the t&c listed on the website).

    For a new player such as yourself, this is an unfortunate way to start but definitely a valuable lesson learned. I only hope that the Meister will be able to get Dice to make an exception for you and count your blackjack wagering(which according to you is >3600) as that is what support told you was acceptable. Furthermore, I would think Dice would want to keep your business as online casinos like patrons who play without bonuses.

    Good luck and hope it works out.
     
  26. Jul 5, 2005
  27. karenpearson

    karenpearson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Post office Clerk
    Location:
    Doncaster, UK
    Thanks for that Hapaboii.

    You're right about the reason for them reducing my wagering requirements.
    It was because they deducted my 100 bonus leaving me to need to wager 12 x my initial 200 deposit, ie 2400. This reduction in my WR just happened to coincide with the fact that I'd just started playing BJ so I mistakenly presumed I'd wagered 1200 on it. It also coincided with the 2 emails I got telling me that BJ is an allowed game. I'm pretty sure anyone of similar intellegence level as myself, and with my experience of online gaming (nil), would have presumed the same. Or maybe I'm not as bright as I thought :confused: I don't think I do bad for a dumb blonde though!! :p

    It looks like technically speaking I'm up shit creek without a paddle and they are right. What cheeses me off most though is the fact that I risked losing my 600 playing a game I don't particularly enjoy, on the advice of their 2 emails, in a futile attempt to fulfill my WR for a lousy 100 bonus that I never asked for and which was deducted from my account within a couple of hours of getting it. I'm not 100% certain but I'm pretty sure I never even dropped below my initial 200 deposit either. Well, at least not before they took away the bonus. I don't really understand why they call it a bonus anyway. More like a fookin ball and chain around your neck. From what I've read on here, if you manage to win using a bonus and fulfil WR, they call you a bonus abuser and close you down!!! What's the point?

    I also told them the link on their promo page, to these particular bonus conditions wasn't (and still isn't) working so I couldn't read it for myself. That's why I was double checking the info I received in the first email.

    Anyway, could anyone please advise me of the best way of playing out a 2400 WR with a 600 bank when my only options are the slots (ha ha) :eek: or video poker? Bear in mind I don't have a clue with poker! Even some of the poker games are restricted for this WR. Chances are not looking good are they?

    Love you all and thanks again xx.
     
  28. Jul 5, 2005
  29. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    The link is working now - I just tried it. I should be getting to this one today. I took most of the day off yesterday :D
     
  30. Jul 17, 2005
  31. karenpearson

    karenpearson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Post office Clerk
    Location:
    Doncaster, UK
    Matter resolved

    Just to let you all know this matter has now been resolved.

    I got an email from Iris Tolenado of Playtech. She told me that Club Dice had adhered to their t&c, even though I got 2 emails telling me that BJ was allowed for this bonus. Therefore I needed to play out 2400 in wagers, playing the slots or video poker. As a final insult, she said they'd give me a $50 bonus, if that aint taking the piss, I don't know what is. :puke:

    I played video poker to the intermediate strategy as found on Wizard of Odds.
    Out of around 10-15 sessions I once managed to get about 15 up. It didn't come as any surprise that EVERY session ended as a losing one. I just finished getting through my 600 winnings.
    Anyone who says that Playtech don't tamper with their software, after you manage to win fairly, is havin a laugh!!

    The only games you can play where they don't take you for a ride, in my opinion, are the live ones, but none of these are allowed for wagering requirements (probably because they're too fair).
    No Playtech casino will get another penny from me and I hope other people read this before making any deposits.

    Thanks to all who posted and helped here.
     
  32. Jul 17, 2005
  33. tim5ny

    tim5ny Quit Gambling

    Take Mr. Wolf's advice! Play at the places he named, and you wont have to post in the complaints section again most likely.
     
  34. Jul 17, 2005
  35. Bruce Hamilton

    Bruce Hamilton Dormant account

    Occupation:
    What's a job?
    Location:
    USA
    If these casinos are going to be such a-holes about their playthroughs, then they need to change their software to calculate the playthrough and display it in the same location as they display our credits. I think many of us are actually meeting our obligations, only to get screwed.
     
  36. Jul 18, 2005
  37. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    It may sound ironic but RTG,which have the most nasties(casinos),have in their cashier page,the playthrough requirements remaining so players dont have to argue with the casino each and every time they get a bonus. If only playtech and micro could have the same function.
     
  38. Jul 18, 2005
  39. nektar4d

    nektar4d Dormant account

    Occupation:
    sales
    Location:
    European Union
    That would be the best feature you can get in the playtech casinos! So many-many complaints and disputes would have been avoided. All forums are full of playtech complaints about wagering requirements etc. Many casinos use this lack of feature for their advantage, thats why they dont ask from playtech to incorporate that!?! The problem is that they damage Playtechs reputation and the respected casinos that use this platform. One day it will be incorporated by force due to competition and customer-pressure and we will all remember the negative period of Playtech as past. I suggest everybody to send an email about that directly to Playtech. The most emails sent the sooner may be applied.

    From MG casinos, from the ones I have visited, Nostalgia does has this feature online! (but the bonus account isnt allowed to play progressive games...)
     

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