Betzest voids 3500 euro balance legit?

Mark_32Red (retired acct)

Dormant account
Joined
May 23, 2008
Location
32Red Marketing Dpt
They sign off as casino manager so presumably they can make decisions.
They can't comment while theres a PAB ongoing though, so we aren't likely to hear from them on this issue until that is decided.

I’ve worked for big PLC’s so I may not understand the hierarchy but what’s a “Casino Manager” in a smaller casino business? Head of Compliance? Head of Customer Service? I’m guessing the sign off here may be misleading, sorry to my “colleague” who is representing the “casino”.
 
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colinsunderland

On a Break
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
I’ve worked for big PLC’s so I may not understand the hierarchy but what’s a “Casino Manager” in a smaller casino business? Head of Compliance? Head of Customer Service? I’m guessing the sign off here may be misleading, sorry to my “colleague” who is representing the “casino”.
No idea, but presumably someone who can actually make a decision :)

Out of interest, as 32Red is heavily MG, would you void a bonus for what has been done here? Would 32Red claim the stake to be the initial stake or the reset amount?
 

Mark_32Red (retired acct)

Dormant account
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May 23, 2008
Location
32Red Marketing Dpt
No idea, but presumably someone who can actually make a decision :)

Out of interest, as 32Red is heavily MG, would you void a bonus for what has been done here? Would 32Red claim the stake to be the initial stake or the reset amount?

We have a different integration with MG and to be honest I wouldn’t know how this scenario would show in our back office. I’m also not able to give my personal opinion!
 

Playford7

Permanent Ban: Too much flaming
MM
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Jul 10, 2016
Location
North east England
Honestly? Because my personal opinion won’t help nor influence the situation and would more likely come back to bite me on the ass. :)
Haha we all know your personal opinion mate after that last comment, there is a reason why your liked and been here so long ;-)
 

Balky

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Location
Croatia
How can repeating a feature count as a separate spin? The spin ends in the moment the feature - repeated or not - is finished, before the next spin of 2,50 begins. Apart from that its very uncool to accuse the player of "knowing very well that the amount counts toward the WR". If the player had really been aware of that, he would also know that this action would have represented a breach of the terms. If the OP was concerned about meeting the WR, he would not have set the bet to 2,50 but grinded out with 20 cent bets. A good casino will not treat loyal players that way. Really uncool!

B.
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Hi Everybody, :)

Thank you all for your feedback, it was more than welcome (each critic is a step forward if it's constructive). We are continuously trying to improve our product and give the best experience to Betzest players. We took your opinions in consideration and analysed this case carefully once again.

As you noticed we have daily unique casino/sports promotions campaigns to suite all players demands, i can assure you that at Betzest have probably the best casino promotions in the market.

@Crazy7 as we expressed in the first reply, you breached two of our bonus T&C clauses, namely 3.12 and 3.13 of the bonus T&C's. (Outdated URL (Invalid))

The game gave you three options to choose from when you won the first free spins, to either collect your prize for the bonus game, gamble your win for a mystical prize or re-play the bonus game. If you had chosen the first option everything would be correct, but the gamble feature and the re-try feature (Outdated URL (Invalid)) options forfeit the initial winnings and thus making possible another bet with the amount that you forfeited in the first place.

As we said earlier, you knew this very well as you could see the balance increase during the free spin section, and when you forfeited them, you saw the balance decrease knowing thus that this would be considered a new bet by the system, as normally when you refuse a winning, in order to win more, this is considered as a bet. And as you know, the more you bet the more bonus turnover you create.

Therefore we argue that you used this option to beat the wagering easily, and not once, which could be easily forgivable, but three times (Outdated URL (Invalid)) and making it for us very difficult to act differently. You have added approximately 130€ from this feature to the bonus wagering.

We express very clearly in our T&C's that we consider irregular play any of these features so playing them, we repeat, not once, but multiple times it is considered a breach of the terms.

We are also very sorry to hear, even from experienced players, very biased argumentation and offensive speech. If a player wants to play real money, he can do literally everything he wants on the game, and no one would interfere, we make sure of that. But in the moment that you choose to play with bonus money, adding thus a help to your initial deposit, there are rules to be followed and respected, because this is how the industry works. As you perfectly did in your first bonus win at our casino, and we remind you that we payed you instantly, without any hassle whatsoever. You should have read carefully all the T&C's before to use the bonus play, and this is certainly not our fault.

We are very sorry for the inconvenience and we thank you again for being a member of Betzest.

Kind Regards

Casino Manager.

Then I stand by my original comment. This game clearly breaches the UKGC guidelines with regards to making it clear what the bet size is IF the replay of free spins is treated like a new game and therefore likely breaches all known jurisdictional guidelines. The fact you are therefore using likely non-conpliant behaviour within a game to refuse payment means you will likely have zero chance of winning if this went to arbitration on this point.

Can someone tell me what jurisdiction the player is playing under so I can look at the technical standards for that jurisdiction.

Also, "you're balance went up so you should have known" would never stand up in any kind of court. All games must have a clear start and end point. Under no circumstance would the player at that point believe the game had ended and the money been banked because the option to COLLECT is there as you point out. The fact collect is an option at this point would lead me, with 22 years experience in game design, so rightfully believe the game cycle has NOT ended at that point and therefore choosing to replay the free spins would remain within the same credit.

I am happy to help the player fight this if I can be of any assistance against what seems to be a non-compliant game and a casino hiding behind this.

Of course, there is a small chance the casino operates in a jurisdiction where this kind of feature is acceptable in how it works... and if this IS proven to be the case, then there is little that can be done.
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
I can't understand how this simple fact is so difficult to understand on the casino side. Bet has never changed and the player has not used any double up-feature etc etc.

This case is already beginning to take on comic features. This all can't be so hard to understand simple case if betzest wants to keep it simple. Pay the money and say sorry we were wrong. That's it

They are hiding behind how microgamimg report the new free spins in the back end, because they don't understand the actual game as they are clearly not games people.

They would lose this in court, I'm convinced.
 

miksaxxx

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Location
Finland
Then I stand by my original comment. This game clearly breaches the UKGC guidelines with regards to making it clear what the bet size is IF the replay of free spins is treated like a new game and therefore likely breaches all known jurisdictional guidelines. The fact you are therefore using likely non-conpliant behaviour within a game to refuse payment means you will likely have zero chance of winning if this went to arbitration on this point.

Can someone tell me what jurisdiction the player is playing under so I can look at the technical standards for that jurisdiction.

Also, "you're balance went up so you should have known" would never stand up in any kind of court. All games must have a clear start and end point. Under no circumstance would the player at that point believe the game had ended and the money been banked because the option to COLLECT is there as you point out. The fact collect is an option at this point would lead me, with 22 years experience in game design, so rightfully believe the game cycle has NOT ended at that point and therefore choosing to replay the free spins would remain within the same credit.

I am happy to help the player fight this if I can be of any assistance against what seems to be a non-compliant game and a casino hiding behind this.

Of course, there is a small chance the casino operates in a jurisdiction where this kind of feature is acceptable in how it works... and if this IS proven to be the case, then there is little that can be done.
Mga . OP is from finland
 

floopyzicer

Newbie member
Joined
Sep 20, 2016
Location
mk
Give the money , he did not breach the TOS it.s 2020 and you loose more if you don't pay him.
I remember playing bonus money when i started this online gambling thingy i was reading TOS after TOS after TOS in order to find some hidden agenda that casinos use to forfeit player winnings , this section you keep mentioning and claiming he abused the wagering when this clearly does not have to count as wagering cause when one plays free spins they don't contribute to wagering so pay the man or you get busted and go rogue here and askgamblers. It will mean your bussiness is done for.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Then I stand by my original comment. This game clearly breaches the UKGC guidelines with regards to making it clear what the bet size is IF the replay of free spins is treated like a new game and therefore likely breaches all known jurisdictional guidelines. The fact you are therefore using likely non-conpliant behaviour within a game to refuse payment means you will likely have zero chance of winning if this went to arbitration on this point...
That's one of the best comments I've read in this entire thread.
 

Mouse75

Experienced Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Location
Southport
Wow - not that my opinion is worth anything professionally, IMO the casino should not have voided the winnings - this is reprehensible behaviour.

Having said that, i CAN see how this can be interpreted as bonus abuse, or at the very least wagering abuse.... bear with me - i certainly do not agree with this myself but.........

If the 1st free spin effort pays 4x, obviously in normal cash play you replay for a better result and just say you get lucky with a juicy 500x!! Happy Days! Cash out time.....
However, the same scenario whilst in bonus funds means that you now have an extra 500x, in this case 1250 euros to help you complete wagering. This is significant - as your expected return after wagering is now much higher. For this reason alone there is a certain twisted logic behind the casinos reasoning.

The game should be excluded from any bonus wagering, and if the casino were aware before this incident of this possibility they are extremely rogue.
If this is the 1st time this has occurred, then a reasonable compromise should be struck with the player, with the 3500 returned to balance - but with a chunk of wagering still to complete (Or remove all bets, winnings and wagering from this now unallowed game and reset both figures accordingly - this is probably the fairest outcome)

I will stress i really do not agree with how the casino has handled this - however I can see (just about) the other side of the coin here.... The casino responses are very poorly written though and they make no mention of the logic thread I have outlined as their reasoning, choosing to hide behind poorly written T&C's and accusing OP of doing this deliberately to assist wagering.

With regards to reps actual role and signature. I work in customer service, and when working resolution work, my replies are often "signed" as coming from a named person high in the organisation management structure. They don't - they come from me.... this signature on the reps emails may well be similar. For all we know the rep may be secretly shaking his head with frustration at his own casinos decision - that doesnt mean he can share his own opinion when doing his paid job.
 

CasinoNinja

Meister Member
MM
Joined
Apr 27, 2017
Location
UK
Wow - not that my opinion is worth anything professionally, IMO the casino should not have voided the winnings - this is reprehensible behaviour.

Having said that, i CAN see how this can be interpreted as bonus abuse, or at the very least wagering abuse.... bear with me - i certainly do not agree with this myself but.........

If the 1st free spin effort pays 4x, obviously in normal cash play you replay for a better result and just say you get lucky with a juicy 500x!! Happy Days! Cash out time.....
However, the same scenario whilst in bonus funds means that you now have an extra 500x, in this case 1250 euros to help you complete wagering. This is significant - as your expected return after wagering is now much higher. For this reason alone there is a certain twisted logic behind the casinos reasoning.

The game should be excluded from any bonus wagering, and if the casino were aware before this incident of this possibility they are extremely rogue.
If this is the 1st time this has occurred, then a reasonable compromise should be struck with the player, with the 3500 returned to balance - but with a chunk of wagering still to complete (Or remove all bets, winnings and wagering from this now unallowed game and reset both figures accordingly - this is probably the fairest outcome)

I will stress i really do not agree with how the casino has handled this - however I can see (just about) the other side of the coin here.... The casino responses are very poorly written though and they make no mention of the logic thread I have outlined as their reasoning, choosing to hide behind poorly written T&C's and accusing OP of doing this deliberately to assist wagering.

With regards to reps actual role and signature. I work in customer service, and when working resolution work, my replies are often "signed" as coming from a named person high in the organisation management structure. They don't - they come from me.... this signature on the reps emails may well be similar. For all we know the rep may be secretly shaking his head with frustration at his own casinos decision - that doesnt mean he can share his own opinion when doing his paid job.

Again, it's a feature within a slot. It's not like you are betting again with a guaranteed bonus, you are simply using what the slot offers you, as it's designed. You could end up with 0x on the second bonus too.

Take a look at other slots, like Ooh ah Dracula. If you get maximum scatters (5 hearts), you can get up to 3 freespins bonuses, one more volatile than the other with more wilds. You have to play the least volatile option first and then you get an offer to play the next option by forfeiting your winnings from the first one.
In this second round instead of 1 wild symbol, you get two (with less spins), and again you can choose to forfeit your winnings for the final round which is 5 freespins with 3 wilds symbols.

Would you call that "bonus abuse" too? It's a feature within a slot, as designed you have the option to replay which could give you even worse results..
 

L&L-Jan

Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Location
Malta
Honestly? Because my personal opinion won’t help nor influence the situation and would more likely come back to bite me on the ass. :)

Do it, so I can do it too :)
 

Mouse75

Experienced Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Location
Southport
@CasinoNinja

Did you read my post? I repeatedly state i do not agree with this decision. I am simply postulating a reason for the stance.

If this is the reasoning, then for the same logic the Ooh Aah Dracula, Boulderbucks, Medusa Megaways and any other similar games should be excluded from wagering.
 

Fredos386

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May 23, 2017
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Guys you are missing the point.. they know they are wrong. They are doing it on purpose to try and avoid paying out and if it never worked they would've stopped. If the casino rep agree to any of you in any way it automatically means they have to pay. He will, like other casinos in that kind of situation, ignore facts, comments... go around talk bacon in a big mac and what not just to avoid the point. i've been through this a dozen times this year with all different casinos when cashing out thousands.. it became clear to me that multiple casinos had just hired people to do just that.. professional rambler saying whatever.. then when you figure and know what to do.. you push them with a lawyer or what else and the second they realize you won't be fooled they just say whatever sry or not and pay.

You know if you think saw everything in casinos... casino anonymous started cheating me on wager when i was winning after i get a bigger win than usual after playing almost everyday for a year. They reduce the wager contribution of slots i am playing.. even WHILE PLAYING to 50% if i hit.. 25% if i hit again.. 10% contribution if i am not ripping and going late then if im near ead.. 5% 1% 0.1% etc. That thing for whatever reason made certain slots somethines the second they touch the contritbuion.. the slot would kick a 1000x+ monster instantly like madness... can't tell waht exactly does what, could just guess but it did making the casino think i am a cheater? hahahah oh yeah they trying to steal me system i have no control over does something and i am a cheater .. what next.

To eventually cashout 8500$ cad in btc.. get my account disabled and win voidied because according to their terms... by moving to new slots still wagering 100% when they cheat me i was using abuse tactics that void everything.. Yes i was moving to new slot to have 10-20 spins 100% wager before they system or casino or whatever who reduce slot wager contribution... that makes me a cheater fraud and i got stolen. Pissed off i treid again to be sure are they really at that level of criminality.. got another win eventually doing tons of 150-200$ a pop deposits and got nuked around 26% wager.. their offer is 150% 150x wager so the basic wager requirement is already the biggest i ever saw really... 50%.. From 0-36% i was playing book of cats only, never moved even if i figured wager was nuked again at some point. Then i opened 2 low volatilty pragma that auto turbo spin fast as at 25% wager on 150x it measn 600x wager... gonna take a crap ton of millions spins.. had madame destiny(sry not low volatility this) and a smoother one i have a blank on 2 tab same browser which i did countless time as it is allowed to speed it up.. at some point the wager on one was below 10% the other moving 25 to 50 to 25%.. the system was trying to nuke it to 1-5% but everytime it would do it madame was kicking a youtube instantly... so it would set it back up 50% instantly. I added a 3 pragma and did it all the way to end ... at some point removed the 3 slots.

So total i played 4-5 slots.. didnt do anything special whatsoever.. beat wager with 8000$ in btc.. cash out.. (all accounts are new no registration accounts with no email or anything. On first registration casino email and offered to do as many as i wanted as they .. promote it so i did). No matter they always knew it was me without any check or.. they cheat everyone? By the way, the slots wager contribution was applied to everyone not just me.. so if i would go now .. start winning and have them cheat me.. you could then depo with a bonus go play them sltos and see for yourself the contribution before they reset. So without registration.. nothing they did all that to then .. disable account and steal me.. for claiming somehow i abused terms first times by moving slots when they nuke/cheat me... so no matter im a cheater all is voided forever. So my last 2 cashouts they stole me 8500$ and 8000$ for the mentionned reasonds. So you think you heard everything?

I have gathered all proof of their actions and even if they erased accounts my deposits were bitcoin and you can trace them in the block chain to them, they can't escape it. I am looking around what are my legal or not actions with this. Can't believe they are just allowed to steal everyone like that.. it's literally impossible. To people playing there.. americans especially.. if you ever felt like your wager was suddenyl eternal.. i know they nuke the slots played the most by americans like the dog house etc so it could be that, if you play there always track wager on the side tab in real-time.

p.s.: I should've stopped playing after the first fraudulent actions but i had won really big money from their first attempt at cheating me so i could afford it with the money from them and ... i am stubborn.. can't help it .. was ready to pay the price to see for myself. I lost very deep balances 10-20k multiple times.. when i was cashing out they would just make wager infinite (below 1% contribution or so on 150x so billiosn of wager). I was stolen 19 mbtc, 426 mbtc and other 460ish (8500$ value at thetime) that were confirmed legit wins that were stolen and account disabled without ever replying to my emails or justifying anything. So almost 20,000$ confirmed fraud and other 40,000$ or so confirmed winning balances that couldnt finish the last few % du to wagering 0.01 cent per spin or so. So ya its really huge deal here. I even mailed them early on explaining them what the nuke does and to stop cheating me, they do it to themselves i do noting but spin. The reaction from them was.. go from 50% to 25% wager contribution which made me suddenly have casual cashouts now instead of 2x bigger.. 4x bigger than normal on 100% so i had stuff up 200x my deposit.. crazy.
I said i would sue.. said whatever.. they didnt care.. jsut outright steal till i have finaly enough hehe.

So ya i dont know what exactly to do right now but they obviously could end up being in more than deep trouble from this as its not fine or lil warning with what i can provie... it's criminal accusations. Here fraud or thievery over 5000$ is a heavy criminal charge.. They did repeteadly even if iwarned them etc. Their terms.... says abusive tactis etc... but is it abusive tactics to move from a slot to another when the site purposely make your slot not wager or almost to make you lsoe your win when you get deep? Is it criminal or abusive to try and protect yourself and your money from a criminal attempting to steal you? To them yes but that's just because they tell themselves whatever thy want to convince em and everyone they are legit.. like betzest here.

I have just as amazing stories about other places... i was waiting to release them or do actions for the day i was ready to accept fact i might not be able to every play again online.. after being stole tens of thousands... im ready lol. So now i will start releasing informations about confirmed fraudulent casinos and criminal actions committed on me during the year. They kept moving and cheat me as they saw i wasnt doiing anything after i said i would but i was waiting. By the way.. last anonymous casino (direx) cashout.. i email them when i saw they werent paying instantly.. i knew what was coming.. i offered them.. to forget the past.. erase history.. everything they stole me and their actions as i felt my "compensated" wins were paying it for me.. i said lets finish this here and you will never see me again.. They didnt reply.. stole my 8000$ and disabled account. yayyy

thumbnail is one lil example... you can see the finaly wager .. it goes in decimals in to fractions of cents in value (btc here) that is literally impossible with the 4-5 slots i played that were all on minimum bet of 10$ cad worth of btc.. with rounded big numbers bet size nothing can getin millions decimal. Thats just on example so people can see what im talking about.. not making up nothing.. why would i...
 

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Fredos386

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For more information about why i got cheated so much by so many casinos this year.. it's because the anonymous casino fraud and cheats made me win tens of thousands over longer periond of time in months. At some point i peaked over 150k cad in profits before i crash down. It was from anonymous btc accounts so i guess not available to casinos knowledge how i got that money? But from low roller streamer i started rolling mega bets and deposits all over.. i was getting swings of 10k+ in a day easily .. rip rip rip 10k -20k then boom on a depo hit multiple thousands and cash out. Casinos would just outright say NO. They didn't care i did 50x200$ deposits (10,000$) rip to get to that 4,000$ win... 4k win from 200$ deposits IMPOSSIBLE, you are cheat! Scary...

So yeah suddeny casinos all refused to pay me, casinos from all kind from worst to top ranked here. I was "investigated" by multiple casinos holding my funds. Casinos were sending their responsible gambling agents after me with flase claim of wanting to help me but were in fact there to try and figure out where the money is from... will they make money from me long term on these stakes and what not. The first to move was genesis group, sloty casino ahead... and after i told their responsible gambling agent my money is out of my reach, everything is managed tightly, i do biig or small bets just depends on my wallet size.. big bets are always only made with profits. The casino realized... they would never make up for my previous win with me.. that i can't afford these stakes long term.. so the whole group auto-excluded me without my approval after i told them how nicely manager my finances are... All i know now is all casinos sayi requested exclusion... which i never. But thats the least of the things that happened to me recently.. most i have to keep quiet before legal or criminal accusations being done against each specific casino and group.

I was told it is impossible i won like that. I was told so many nonsense things.. that if the casinos are right.. it just plain means their games are manipulated and not random at all.. as you guys might know.. if games are random.. then anything can happen.. the simple fact a casino management of a big license group tell me its IMPOSSIBLE... in the absolute... any lawyers here? You prob understand and get the point here. So yeah.. now i have to quit.. can't stream anymore... preparing actions as i am not after money, i always used it to gamble back.. everyone knows around me.. i streamed for years.. gambling funds is for gamble.. what come from slots must return to the slots i say. But i just cannot let them continue lying.. frauding and cheating players outright.. in some casinos with what i proved and what i know.. just muting would me legally that i am accomplice (what is english word for supporting/helping a criminal do or hide a crime?) and i could. if figured out be sued or jailed myself.. not to mention.. i want to help. make the industry safer but with everything i have hand now.. all i could tell people is bet smell. .depo small.. or dont play at all. The whole industry from top to bottom is huuuuuuuu and eventually you will hear and figure about it one by one as my casinos.. casinos and proof.. lawsuits or criminal accusations are released publicly. You will. puke.. cry ... want to yelll.. what not when you realize what you guys have been dealing with.. without noticing. Ya.. i don't want money.. never wanted.. i gave them so many chances over years.. this year i went so far beyond common sense simply because i wasnt ready to quit playing... I Just.. have to do it.. no choice. I am aware of casinos and groups that fraud, manipulate and ruin players as a protocole permantly.. people are mostly not aware they got cheated.. lied or else. Once they figure.. when people .. around the globe (if they hear of it) figure what these casinos have done to all of them.. i wont have to do anything.. the outrage will be global.. i am not pushing anything here.. you will see... the stories.. what happened.. the casinos the system. .the games.. lots of very very disgusting things that i have proved repeateadly and have kept safe the proof it meaning you will be able to confirm by yourself my words. On that gl .. and remember.. casinos lie on purpose.. most people give up their wins.. for the few that are here fighting.. so they continue. If you show them you are serious they will pay.. they just try.. in case.. you would give up.
 
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